LAST TUESDAYISM: possible or no?

[Sparko]

cats are like that. they have no respect for tuesday.

[KBertsche]

Yes, this is an old thread, but Last Thursdayism (or some other variant of Omphalism) is still something I'm interested in and revisiting. Since, as I've stated, almost everyone agrees that it is unfalsifiable, I've yet to see any serious undertaking of the theory, so I feel like I'm pretty much alone on this. It may in fact be unfalsifiable, but I want to think about it from as many angles as possible. I'm not trained in formal logic, but I have an ability to think about things logically when I really sit down to examine something. If I come up with something new on this subject, you can rest assured I will have it posted.

The reason I feel it may be falsifiable has to do with the concept of time in the scenario...but I want to think about it more before I come to a conclusion.

I don't see how it can ever be falsified; eny evidence of time or age was simply created to look that way. It seems to completely insulate itself from any scientific or historical problems. Hence (IMO) it is the only YEC view that is consistent with scientific data. Its problem is theological; it implies that God is deceptive.

[FreezBee]

I don't see how it can ever be falsified; eny evidence of time or age was simply created to look that way. It seems to completely insulate itself from any scientific or historical problems. Hence (IMO) it is the only YEC view that is consistent with scientific data. Its problem is theological; it implies that God is deceptive.

Ummm, there is a slight problem here, methinks. Assuming God to be deceptive is to project our own conception of God on God. Can we read the mind of God?

What appears as deceptive to us may in a larger perspective not be deceptive at all


- FreezBee

[FreezBee]

Yes, this is an old thread, but Last Thursdayism (or some other variant of Omphalism) is still something I'm interested in and revisiting. Since, as I've stated, almost everyone agrees that it is unfalsifiable, I've yet to see any serious undertaking of the theory, so I feel like I'm pretty much alone on this. It may in fact be unfalsifiable, but I want to think about it from as many angles as possible. I'm not trained in formal logic, but I have an ability to think about things logically when I really sit down to examine something. If I come up with something new on this subject, you can rest assured I will have it posted.

I am sure that we are many who will look forward to that

The reason I feel it may be falsifiable has to do with the concept of time in the scenario...but I want to think about it more before I come to a conclusion.

Ok, good point -- Last Thurdayism presumes certain 'facts' about time, so an analysis of the concept of time would seem to be appropriate.


- FreezBee

[Neb Namwen]

Ok, good point -- Last Thurdayism presumes certain 'facts' about time, so an analysis of the concept of time would seem to be appropriate.

Here's a crack at it:

It appears to be the case that we live in a universe which has existed for billions of years and in which the same laws of cause and effect have applied relatively uniformly for all of that time. Let's call this an "apparently historically coherent universe".

Our metaphysics should take into account that our universe (your universe, if you are a solipsist!) is apparently historically coherent. Considering universes as collections of facts about events taking place in space and time, it's easy to imagine a mechanism for generating an actually historically coherent universe — actually run the universe according to the laws of cause and effect which apparently prevail there. It's also easy to imagine a mechanism for generating a historically incoherent universe — generate a collection of facts arbitrarily.

Generating an apparently historically coherent universe would seem to be much harder — as far as I can tell, you'd have to start with a historically coherent universe and modify it so that it still appeared to be historically coherent to some set of observers, but actually wasn't. In particular, in order to create a Last Thursdayish universe, you'd have to imagine or simulate its past — otherwise, where does the information from the (apparent) past come from, and what makes sure that it's consistent?

So, here's my question: In what way is the Creator's consistency-checking of the Last Thursdayish universe's initial state (a process taking place within the Mind of God which validates every moment of the (apparent) past against the (apparent) laws of cause and effect) different from said past actually taking place?

[FreezBee]

Here's a crack at it:

It appears to be the case that we live in a universe which has existed for billions of years and in which the same laws of cause and effect have applied relatively uniformly for all of that time. Let's call this an "apparently historically coherent universe".

Our metaphysics should take into account that our universe (your universe, if you are a solipsist!) is apparently historically coherent. Considering universes as collections of facts about events taking place in space and time, it's easy to imagine a mechanism for generating an actually historically coherent universe — actually run the universe according to the laws of cause and effect which apparently prevail there. It's also easy to imagine a mechanism for generating a historically incoherent universe — generate a collection of facts arbitrarily.

Generating an apparently historically coherent universe would seem to be much harder — as far as I can tell, you'd have to start with a historically coherent universe and modify it so that it still appeared to be historically coherent to some set of observers, but actually wasn't. In particular, in order to create a Last Thursdayish universe, you'd have to imagine or simulate its past — otherwise, where does the information from the (apparent) past come from, and what makes sure that it's consistent?

So, here's my question: In what way is the Creator's consistency-checking of the Last Thursdayish universe's initial state (a process taking place within the Mind of God which validates every moment of the (apparent) past against the (apparent) laws of cause and effect) different from said past actually taking place?

Neb Namwen and welcome to tweb!

Yes, if we assume that everything is in the mind of God, then there would be no difference, would there?

- FreezBee

[Kenny]

A week ago, I was in Colorado (at a conference). If Last Tuesdayism is true, I wasn’t in Colorado a week ago. Therefore, Last Tuesdayism is false.

“Ah,” you say, “but if Last Tuesdayism is true, you are simply deceived about your having been in Colorado a week ago”.

“Yeah,” I say, “but I believe that I was in Colorado a week ago (I know that by introspection) and I was in Colorado a week ago (I know that by memory), so (by a simple inference) my belief that I was in Colorado a week ago is not a mistaken one. Therefore (once again), Last Tuesdayism is false.”

This is the sort of move only a fan of G.E. Moore’s response to the skeptic could love. But, what can I say, I am a fan of G.E. Moore’s response to the skeptic.

[NeilUnreal]

If Last Tuesdayism is true, I wasn’t in Colorado a week ago. Therefore, Last Tuesdayism is false.

Last Tuesdayism could still be true, it depends on how you define "I was in Colorado."

Consider this statement:

"Superman was born on Krypton."

True or false?

-Neil

[Kenny]

Last Tuesdayism could still be true, it depends on how you define "I was in Colorado."

-Neil

No. If I was in Colorado a week ago, then I was in Colorado before last Tuesday. If I was in Colorado before last Tuesday, I existed before last Tuesday. Last Tuesdayism entails that I did not exist before last Tuesday. Therefore, if I was in Colorado a week ago, Last Tuesdayism is false. I was in Colorado a week ago. Therefore, last Tuesdayism is false.

[FreezBee]

No. If I was in Colorado a week ago, then I was in Colorado before last Tuesday. If I was in Colorado before last Tuesday, I existed before last Tuesday. Last Tuesdayism entails that I did not exist before last Tuesday. Therefore, if I was in Colorado a week ago, Last Tuesdayism is false. I was in Colorado a week ago. Therefore, last Tuesdayism is false.

No, because every tuesday you are created with the memory that you were in Colorado (some Tuesdays it is Nevada instead, I think).

- FreezBee

[Kenny]

No, because every tuesday you are created with the memory that you were in Colorado (some Tuesdays it is Nevada instead, I think).

- FreezBee

If that's true, I wasn't in Colorado last week. But I was. Therefore Last Tuesdayism is false.

Gotta love G.E. Moore!

[FreezBee]

If that's true, I wasn't in Colorado last week. But I was. Therefore Last Tuesdayism is false.

Gotta love G.E. Moore!

But -- you forget that G.E. Moore was dead long before last tueday!

- FreezBee

[Kenny]

But -- you forget that G.E. Moore was dead long before last tueday!

- FreezBee

I know that too. Therefore, Last Tuesdayism is false.

[NeilUnreal]

Zen philosophy addresses this question in the koan about Bodhidharma's beard:

Waku'an (looking at Bodhidharma's bearded picture) complained, "Why doesn't that fellow have a beard?

Hint: if Last Tuesdayism obtains, the idea that it can be disproved by logical contradiction is a phantom. Among other things, logic itself may not have existed before last Tuesday, so it makes no more sense to apply logic to times before last Tuesday than it does to apply logic to fictional situations.

-Neil

[Kenny]

Zen philosophy addresses this question in the koan about Bodhidharma's beard:

Waku'an (looking at Bodhidharma's bearded picture) complained, "Why doesn't that fellow have a beard?

Hint: if Last Tuesdayism obtains, the idea that it can be disproved by logical contradiction is a phantom. Among other things, logic itself may not have existed before last Tuesday, so it makes no more sense to apply logic to times before last Tuesday than it does to apply logic to fictional situations.

-Neil

Well, let me say this. If Last Tuesdayism does entail that the truths of logic did not apply before Last Tuesday, Last Tuesdayism entails an absurdity. Therefore, if Last Tuesdayism entails that the truths of logic did not apply before Last Tuesday, Last Tuesdayism is false.

Never give up the more obvious for the less obvious.