Christian Necrophobes

[whag]

Deny what fact?

Death has existed since life has existed.

And the reason there is death is because mankind rebelled against God

All living things has been dying for about 3.5 billion years before human beings.

But until you are faced with your own death you have no idea how you will react

I can't argue with that. We're all different.

Are you so sure there is no God that you are willing to bet your life on it?

We're both mammals who like persisting on the earth. I'd also seek treatment, just as you are doing, if my liver was failing.

I am not afraid to die because I know something better than this life awaits me

The best you can look forward is non existence or worse

All mammals want to live, and that's why you seek a new liver. We don't seek medical treatment during infirmity because we fear a religious judgment. Rather, we have a powerful survival drive.

[37818]

Death has existed since life has existed.

Death was part of God's good creation.

. . . But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . . -- Genesis 2:17.

It was not until man [Adam] sinned that death became an enemy.

Whan, death is your enemy too.

[whag]

Death was part of God's good creation.

. . . But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . . -- Genesis 2:17.

It was not until man [Adam] sinned that death became an enemy.

Whan, death is your enemy too.

Mossy doesn't believe that God invented death. That's what we're talking about here--the inability of some Christians to process that fact.

[Cow Poke]

Mossy doesn't believe that God invented death.

I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created.

[JimL]

I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created.

If death is an imposed punishment for disobedience to god, then only the imposer of the punishment can be responsible for its reality. You can argue that man deserved death, but you can't argue that man is its cause. In actuallity though, death is just a natural phenomenon.

[Cow Poke]

If death is an imposed punishment for disobedience to god, then only the imposer of the punishment can be responsible for its reality.

Hmmmm... so I tell my kids "no ice cream if they don't finish their veggies", and I'm responsible for inventing "no ice cream". Cool!

You can argue that man deserved death, but you can't argue that man is its cause.

Um.... can you show me where I ever even attempted such an argument?

[JimL]

Hmmmm... so I tell my kids "no ice cream if they don't finish their veggies", and I'm responsible for inventing "no ice cream". Cool!

Poor analogy CP. Ice cream exists whether you choose to reward your children with it or not. Death, at least according to the biblical tale, did not exist, until it was imposed as a punishment.

Um.... can you show me where I ever even attempted such an argument?

That man is the cause of death is implied in your argument, if not then who are you saying is the cause?

[whag]

I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created.

I read this three times, I'm still not sure what you're saying or how it's a red herring. I agree with you that death is nothing but the finitude of life. Mossy's view, as far as I can tell, is that human beings caused the finitude of life. She said, "There is death because of the fall of mankind." Obviously, that's not true.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp unless religion gets in the way.

[Adrift]

Death was part of God's good creation.

. . . But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . . -- Genesis 2:17.

It was not until man [Adam] sinned that death became an enemy.

Whan, death is your enemy too.

I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created.

It's interesting to note that both of these ideas are in accord with the Jewish philosopher, Maimonides, in his work Guide for the Perplexed. He points out that death is a negative property which does not require an agent, and yet these negative properties, are, in the end, "good for the permanence of the Universe and the continuation of the order of things".

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp146.htm

[Cow Poke]

Poor analogy CP.

From the ACE of poor analogies!

Ice cream exists whether you choose to reward your children with it or not.

It didn't ALWAYS!

Death, at least according to the biblical tale, did not exist, until it was imposed as a punishment.

Death is the absence of life. Like darkness, I really don't think it had to be "created".

That man is the cause of death is implied in your argument,

Yeah, you're gonna have to flesh that out. I already asked "can you show me where I ever even attempted such an argument?" Simply saying the same thing again is not answering the question.

if not then who are you saying is the cause?

I'm not. I'm saying God is the giver of life! Just like God is the creator of light, not darkness.

[Jichard]

I think this is pretty much a red herring. It's like saying God created dark. Dark is the absence of light, which God created. Death is the absences of life, which God created.

Death is the absence of life. Like darkness, I really don't think it had to be "created".

[...]

I'm not. I'm saying God is the giver of life! Just like God is the creator of light, not darkness.

First, it is not the case that death is the absence of life, since there are plenty of things that are neither alive nor dead. For example, rocks are neither alive nor dead. Same for pens.

Second, it is logically possible for some sort of deity to create dead organisms without creating living organisms, and thus create death without creating life. For example: make a dead single-cell organism.

[whag]

It's interesting to note that both of these ideas are in accord with the Jewish philosopher, Maimonides, in his work Guide for the Perplexed. He points out that death is a negative property which does not require an agent, and yet these negative properties, are, in the end, "good for the permanence of the Universe and the continuation of the order of things".

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/gfp/gfp146.htm

Moreover, it's illogical to imagine an environment in which that negative property doesn't exist. If such an imbalance were possible to maintain reality, then there's no reason the initial creation couldn't have been entirely positive, as well.

[Cow Poke]

First, it is not the case that death is the absence of life, since there are plenty of things that are neither alive nor dead. For example, rocks are neither alive nor dead. Same for pens.

It never occurred to me that somebody might try to apply life or death to objects capable of either. That's a bit pedantic, I'd think.

Second, it is logically possible for some sort of deity to create dead organisms without creating living organisms, and thus create death without creating life. For example: make a dead single-cell organism.

[whag]

First, it is not the case that death is the absence of life, since there are plenty of things that are neither alive nor dead. For example, rocks are neither alive nor dead. Same for pens.

Second, it is logically possible for some sort of deity to create dead organisms without creating living organisms, and thus create death without creating life. For example: make a dead single-cell organism.

Stars are a good example. They're not alive but we can't really call them dead. They serve as a great analogy for biological organisms: they are dynamic, eat and burn fuel, shed waste, and cease existing, just like all flora and fauna do.

[JimL]

From the ACE of poor analogies!



It didn't ALWAYS!



Death is the absence of life. Like darkness, I really don't think it had to be "created".



Yeah, you're gonna have to flesh that out. I already asked "can you show me where I ever even attempted such an argument?" Simply saying the same thing again is not answering the question.



I'm not. I'm saying God is the giver of life! Just like God is the creator of light, not darkness.

No matter how you define death, biblically speaking, death is not something that had relevance in this world until god made it so. Of course in my opinion that is a lot of fairy tale nonsense so I actualy agree with you that god is not the cause of death.