Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

OK, SHE SAID IT! - Women Bring on Sexual Assault by Their Dress / Conduct...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Because the liberals - like you - would always jump down the throat of a person like Hynde - a WOMAN talking about WOMAN issues - because they don't like the way she said what she said - than deal with the issues she presented.

    Good job! You did exactly what I would have expected JimL to do, only much more eloquently.
    Sorry, man, but you said yourself that you didn't agree with what Ms. Hynde apparently said, calling it "extreme." You have, instead, focused on a point that nobody contests, that women can and should take at least some precautions against crime. Everybody agrees that people should lock their car doors, too, just to be safe.

    So your inclusion of "PC police" is still woefully out of place if you agree that what Ms. Hynde apparently says about expectations and fault concerning assault is wrong. If it's being PC to say that she's wrong then ... you're the PC police, CP.
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • #47
      Girl opinion here.
      First, expect is a poor choice of words.
      Second, merely being provocatively dressed does not mean the victim is at fault. Fault indicates culpability and victim has none. Even if she is waltzing around stark naked she is not culpable for his actions. The responsibility for a man to control himself remains his.

      She is, however, an idiot. The process a rapist uses to decide whom he will target is complex but two factors are common. The first is carriage. Looking like you lack confidence can signal 'victim'. The second is attention. Something get, the rapists attention to begin with. Provocative dress can do both.

      Doesn't create culpability but can create risk. The greater risk is that she will catch the kind of fish her appearance indicates she is looking for which isn't worse but also isn't good.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sam View Post
        Sorry, man, but you said yourself that you didn't agree with what Ms. Hynde apparently said, calling it "extreme."
        Yes, I said that - so what's the goofy "sorry man"?

        You have, instead, focused on a point that nobody contests, that women can and should take at least some precautions against crime. Everybody agrees that people should lock their car doors, too, just to be safe.
        Which is a discussion being had here resulting from some things that Hynde said.

        So your inclusion of "PC police" is still woefully out of place if you agree that what Ms. Hynde apparently says about expectations and fault concerning assault is wrong.
        Ah, so freedom of speech ONLY applies when you AGREE with the speaker or writer! She has a right to her opinion, Sam, and she DOES say some worthwhile things in that article.

        If it's being PC to say that she's wrong then ... you're the PC police, CP.
        Yes, everybody here knows I'm all about attacking people for speaking their mind.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
          Girl opinion here.
          First, expect is a poor choice of words.
          Yeah, I think we all agree.

          Second, merely being provocatively dressed does not mean the victim is at fault. Fault indicates culpability and victim has none. Even if she is waltzing around stark naked she is not culpable for his actions. The responsibility for a man to control himself remains his.
          Sure, but she's increasing her chances of being attacked.

          She is, however, an idiot. The process a rapist uses to decide whom he will target is complex but two factors are common. The first is carriage. Looking like you lack confidence can signal 'victim'. The second is attention. Something get, the rapists attention to begin with. Provocative dress can do both.
          Absolutely correct. As well as being intoxicated, and thereby less capable of putting up a fight.

          Doesn't create culpability but can create risk. The greater risk is that she will catch the kind of fish her appearance indicates she is looking for which isn't worse but also isn't good.
          Yup.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #50
            Probably some context from the book would help. Also context from the interview,

            Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11833539/Women-should-dress-modesty-or-expect-to-entice-a-rapist-claims-singer-Chrissie-Hynde.html

            The book details an incident when she was 21 when she was picked up by a motorcycle gang who promised to take her to a party but instead took her to an empty house and sexually assaulted her.

            But she said: “If I'm walking around in my underwear and I'm drunk? Who else's fault can it be? – Er, the guy who attacks you?

            “Oh, come on! That's just silly.

            “If I'm walking around and I'm very modestly dressed and I'm keeping to myself and someone attacks me, then I'd say that's his fault.

            “But if I'm being very lairy and putting it about and being provocative, then you are enticing someone who's already unhinged — don't do that.”

            She added: “You know, if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him. If you're wearing something that says 'Come and ---- me', you'd better be good on your feet… I don't think I'm saying anything controversial am I?"

            © Copyright Original Source



            It might be helpful to remind ourselves that in the interview she's talking off the cuff. She's not making any sort of pre-formulated argument, she's just being real. Also, Chrissie Hynde isn't exactly known for any conservative stances. This is a woman who was part of the formational punk and post-punk/new wave scenes, and is known for her veganism and her support for PETA (the opening riff of My City Was Gone is used on Rush Limbaugh's show. Instead of preventing Limbaugh from using the riff, she collects a usage fee from his program that she donates to PETA).

            It's possible that she suffers some sort of victim guilt, but I think basically what she's getting at is that . . . in the same way that if I were to give a bunch of bikers the finger or say crude things about their momma, I should not be surprised that I get beaten and my property damaged; It should also come to no surprise that if a woman were to put herself in a VERY dubious situation, perhaps a combination of being under the influence, dressing provocatively or with few clothes on, being actively flirtatious, all in the company of men not exactly known for their restraint (like a bunch of bikers), one could conceivably imagine that her actions had something to do with their actions. That does NOT of course condone rape. Everyone is of course responsible for their own actions, but there is such a thing as common sense, and we sometimes need to use it.

            As a personal example, I remember putting myself in some very hairy situations looking to score drugs back in the day. I got ripped off, had a gun pulled on me, and literally been in places that, looking back, only through the grace of God did I make it out better than expected. Some of my friends were not so lucky.

            At any rate, I think we can say with some confidence that Chrissie Hynde is not saying, "if you dress a little slutty, you deserve what you get", what she's saying is, "if you put yourself in a very bad predicament, you can expect less than positive results".

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              Probably some context from the book would help. Also context from the interview,

              Source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11833539/Women-should-dress-modesty-or-expect-to-entice-a-rapist-claims-singer-Chrissie-Hynde.html

              The book details an incident when she was 21 when she was picked up by a motorcycle gang who promised to take her to a party but instead took her to an empty house and sexually assaulted her.

              But she said: “If I'm walking around in my underwear and I'm drunk? Who else's fault can it be? – Er, the guy who attacks you?

              “Oh, come on! That's just silly.

              “If I'm walking around and I'm very modestly dressed and I'm keeping to myself and someone attacks me, then I'd say that's his fault.

              “But if I'm being very lairy and putting it about and being provocative, then you are enticing someone who's already unhinged — don't do that.”

              She added: “You know, if you don't want to entice a rapist, don't wear high heels so you can't run from him. If you're wearing something that says 'Come and ---- me', you'd better be good on your feet… I don't think I'm saying anything controversial am I?"

              © Copyright Original Source



              It might be helpful to remind ourselves that in the interview she's talking off the cuff. She's not making any sort of pre-formulated argument, she's just being real. Also, Chrissie Hynde isn't exactly known for any conservative stances. This is a woman who was part of the formational punk and post-punk/new wave scenes, and is known for her veganism and her support for PETA (the opening riff of My City Was Gone is used on Rush Limbaugh's show. Instead of preventing Limbaugh from using the riff, she collects a usage fee from his program that she donates to PETA).

              It's possible that she suffers some sort of victim guilt, but I think basically what she's getting at is that . . . in the same way that if I were to give a bunch of bikers the finger or say crude things about their momma, I should not be surprised that I get beaten and my property damaged; It should also come to no surprise that if a woman were to put herself in a VERY dubious situation, perhaps a combination of being under the influence, dressing provocatively or with few clothes on, being actively flirtatious, all in the company of men not exactly known for their restraint (like a bunch of bikers), one could conceivably imagine that her actions had something to do with their actions. That does NOT of course condone rape. Everyone is of course responsible for their own actions, but there is such a thing as common sense, and we sometimes need to use it.

              As a personal example, I remember putting myself in some very hairy situations looking to score drugs back in the day. I got ripped off, had a gun pulled on me, and literally been in places that, looking back, only through the grace of God did I make it out better than expected. Some of my friends were not so lucky.

              At any rate, I think we can say with some confidence that Chrissie Hynde is not saying, "if you dress a little slutty, you deserve what you get", what she's saying is, "if you put yourself in a very bad predicament, you can expect less than positive results".
              Yup, and some of those things you "added" were in the cite to which I linked in the OP!

              Great summary!
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #52
                It is never a womans fault if she is attacked and raped no matter how she chooses to dress period, and that is the opposite of what Chrissie Hynde says in the article.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Depends what you mean by "fault". The dictionary backs me up too:

                  fault: "responsibility for failure or a wrongful act"

                  It's one's responsibility to take reasonable safety precautions, and it is your fault if you fail to protect yourself even if you are not morally at fault for the rape.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    I don't know why some are making this more complicated than what it is. Is a woman at fault for being raped? Nope. Can you make a bad decision that might put you in a position that will make that more of a likelihood? Yep.
                    Last edited by Jesse; 08-31-2015, 12:26 AM.
                    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      It's obviously more complicated than you make it out to be because fault means different things to different people (and the dictionary backs this up) so a lot of conclusion about what is meant by it is created. The various reactions to the OP are evidence enough of it.
                      "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                      There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                        It's obviously more complicated than you make it out to be because fault means different things to different people (and the dictionary backs this up) so a lot of conclusion about what is meant by it is created. The various reactions to the OP are evidence enough of it.
                        I hear ya. It just doesn't seem very complicated to me.
                        "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by JimL View Post
                          It is never a womans fault if she is attacked and raped no matter how she chooses to dress period, and that is the opposite of what Chrissie Hynde says in the article.
                          I would far rather my daughters listen to Chrissie's advice than some pinko commie liberal who refuses to accept that there ARE some things for which we should take personal responsibility. There ARE some things women can do to mitigate risk - that's what Chrissie's comments are about, albeit worded a bit aggressively.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sam View Post
                            Of course she does; Ms. Hynde is, however, wrong if her opinion is that women should expect to be violently assaulted for their choice of dress or that it's a woman's "fault" (quotes in the OP) for being assaulted when intoxicated.

                            If I leave the door to my car unlocked when I run into Wal-Mart, I shouldn't have to expect to find my seats gone when I get back, nor would it be my fault for leaving the car unlocked. It's a bad precedent to argue that criminal acts are the fault of the victim rather than the criminal.
                            But I guarantee you'd think, "I wish I had locked my car." You might even say to yourself, "It's my fault for not locking my car."
                            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                            Than a fool in the eyes of God


                            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              But I guarantee you'd think, "I wish I had locked my car." You might even say to yourself, "It's my fault for not locking my car."
                              I don't know, MM - that would indicate that Sam believed in personal responsibility.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                Chrissie Hynde saying publicly what I've heard a lot of people say privately, for fear of castigation from the political correctness cops....

                                Source: The Telegraph

                                Women who walk around drunk and provocatively dressed should expect to be sexually assaulted, Chrissie Hynde, the lead singer of the Pretenders, has suggested.

                                The former chart topper claimed in a Sunday newspaper interview that scantily clad women were likely to “entice a rapist” and that it is their “fault” if they are attacked.

                                She discloses in a new memoir how she was abducted and sexually assaulted by a motorcycle gang in Ohio in the early 1970s – but concludes it was “all my doing” because of the way she was dressed and the fact that she was under the influence of drugs.

                                She also claimed that pop stars who call themselves feminists but use their sex appeal to sell records were effectively just “prostitutes”.

                                Charities said her remarks highlighted how victims of sexual assault wrongly blame themselves for their ordeals.

                                Her comments came in an interview with The Sunday Times, which published extracts from her autobiography entitled “Reckless”.

                                © Copyright Original Source

                                Perhaps Burqas are not a such bad idea.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

                                Related Threads

                                Collapse

                                Topics Statistics Last Post
                                Started by little_monkey, Yesterday, 04:19 PM
                                6 responses
                                45 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                                42 responses
                                231 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post whag
                                by whag
                                 
                                Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                                24 responses
                                104 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Ronson
                                by Ronson
                                 
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                                32 responses
                                176 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                                73 responses
                                307 views
                                0 likes
                                Last Post Hypatia_Alexandria  
                                Working...
                                X