God's Injustice towards Jesus: crucifixion

[Sparko]

I can't believe that moose is as dumb as he acts. It has to be a show.

[moose7237]

Man I love these insults!!! Bring em on! Tomorrow more of Holding's insults! Yippe!

[OldManZangetsu]

Now that it's too late for me to be taken seriously , I'd like to offer some advice before I quit this thread. Moose, it's very obvious that you're sucking off of nothing but poor scholarship, with a one sided mind. This thread is going no where, but we've all (whether you want to admit it or not) given you plenty of stuff to think about. Cool off and let this stuff sink in, or address a different issue elsewhere. In the meantime, check out more of JP's articles. Atleast read them and compare notes. And when you do finally get a degree in Biblical studies, come back and we can talk more.

Also I have this for you. It's not a joke, I'm being serious. JP and the rest of us are making you look foolish, you just can't realize it. Please take some time to think about all this, maybe a week or so, I don't know.

And lastly, you are seriously taking things out of context, and reading them with modern eyes (i.e. "everything is literal, and doesn't belong there if it's not direct. What the heck is poetry, rhetoric, and symbolism doing there!? Ugh! I'm never saying it's raining cats and dogs again! It's so stupid and misleading!"). The only thing I can say here is, stop thinking like a 21st century American while reading the Bible, and start thinking more like an ANE Jew.

Good luck shaking off that poor scholarship, I quit, cy'all elsewhere.
-----------------------------------------------------
Edit: thought I'd throw in some comedic relief. Enjoy.

[Sparko]

Man I love these insults!!! Bring em on! Tomorrow more of Holding's insults! Yippe!

OK since you asked nicely...

After reading your idiot posts I have come to the conclusion that a half-wit gave you a piece of his mind, and you held on to it.

People say that you are the perfect idiot. I say that you are not perfect but you are doing all right.

If you spoke your mind, you'd be speechless.

I used to think that you were a gibbering idiot. Now, after reading your latest post, I have a much lower opinion of you. Maybe you wouldn't read like such a pathetic loser if you weren't so dense that light bends around you.

Have you ever noticed that whenever you sit behind a keyboard, some idiot starts typing? Do yourself and everyone else a favor: disconnect your computer from the Internet - or in the future, at least wake up the peglegged hamster operating that wheel-powered brain of yours before you start typing.

[Crow]

Moose, it's time for me to address this situation for what it truly is.

People have responded to your arguments. They have not avoided them. They have been patient.

You stonewall by tossing out the occasional strawman and ignoring good arguments that others have put forth.

Each time someone refutes one of your points, you assert that it hasn't been refuted. You respond in a cocky manner, then get huffy when others do the same.

Many of the people on this board disagree with others to varying degrees. For example -- I'm an Acts 9-12 out dispy, OV, which is not the majority position of this board. I've found the majority of the members to be extrememly willing to openly and honestly discuss the ins and outs of our differing opinions, from the atheists to the zealots. Most. You aren't in the "most" category.

In short you, will not engage in an intellectually honest manner. It's no wonder that Sparko is mocking you. You've earned it.

[moose7237]

Well You guys think I'm an idiot because I ask logical questions and you try to swerve away from them. I think Paul's writings are very degrading and an insult to what God gave, and those are the commandments. You guys haven't seen this arguement before that's why you shoot it down. I bring up logical points about God not being just, and everytime I do I get shot down with yet another insult. Yes people have given me points, but I'm not going to roll over and say "this makes sense" when in reality it doesn't. That's what debating is, proving the other person wrong. When you refute my arguement I will see if this is logical or not, or if there is a contradiction to that arguement or verse you gave me. When you give a response I look at it and think if it really disproves me, and going back to my original article it does not. Another point I brought up was God being unjust to the Jews by making them follow a strict law while Christians get a free ride. No one even bothered to defend that arguement. You guys only think on how you can have it the easy way out and not work for salvation, while you brush aside the fact that the Jews work their butts off to satisfy God, and Paul comes along and says its worthless. Give me a break. No one gave me a response to my original question regarding Isaiah 43:23-25, no one gave me a response In God saying he would save the righteous from the wicked, yet Jesus died at the hands of the wicked. You think you have refuted me, but I can't accept these answers because they absolutely don't make any sense! Go ahead keep making fun of me! whatever makes you think you won this debate.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

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[moose7237]

I wanted to foucus on a difficulty that I'm having here:

Lets read Psalm 18:
3 I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise,
and I am saved from my enemies.
7 The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry.
6 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
from my foes, who were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
but the LORD was my support.
19 He brought me out into a spacious place;
he rescued me because he delighted in me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD;
I have not done evil by turning from my God.
22 All his laws are before me;
I have not turned away from his decrees.
23 I have been blameless before him
and have kept myself from sin.
48 who saves me from my enemies.
You exalted me above my foes;
from violent men you rescued me.
49 Therefore I will praise you among the nations, O LORD;
I will sing praises to your name.
50 He gives his king great victories;
he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed,
to David and his descendants forever.

Now if I'm not mistaken isn't Jesus the only person who has kept all of God's laws, and the only person who has kept himself from sin? So this looks as if this person, who was perfect too, was saved from his enemies. Jesus is the anointed, so by this psalms it makes complete sense that Jesus was saved from the evil men. And didn't the earth quake at the crucifixion? Hmmm...if Jesus was really saved from the cross not only did God live up to his promise of Giving Jesus unfailing kindness, but the NT is in complete contradiction with this part of the OT. Bring on the insults!!!

[Sparko]

I wanted to foucus on a difficulty that I'm having here:

Lets read Psalm 18:
3 I call to the LORD, who is worthy of praise,
and I am saved from my enemies.
7 The earth trembled and quaked,
and the foundations of the mountains shook;
they trembled because he was angry.
6 He reached down from on high and took hold of me;
he drew me out of deep waters.
17 He rescued me from my powerful enemy,
from my foes, who were too strong for me.
18 They confronted me in the day of my disaster,
but the LORD was my support.
19 He brought me out into a spacious place;
he rescued me because he delighted in me.
21 For I have kept the ways of the LORD;
I have not done evil by turning from my God.
22 All his laws are before me;
I have not turned away from his decrees.
23 I have been blameless before him
and have kept myself from sin.
48 who saves me from my enemies.
You exalted me above my foes;
from violent men you rescued me.
49 Therefore I will praise you among the nations, O LORD;
I will sing praises to your name.
50 He gives his king great victories;
he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed,
to David and his descendants forever.

Now if I'm not mistaken isn't Jesus the only person who has kept all of God's laws, and the only person who has kept himself from sin? So this looks as if this person, who was perfect too, was saved from his enemies. Jesus is the anointed, so by this psalms it makes complete sense that Jesus was saved from the evil men. And didn't the earth quake at the crucifixion? Hmmm...if Jesus was really saved from the cross not only did God live up to his promise of Giving Jesus unfailing kindness, but the NT is in complete contradiction with this part of the OT. Bring on the insults!!!

verse 1: To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who addressed the words of this song to the LORD on the day when the LORD rescued him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. He said: I love you, O LORD, my strength.


OK the person in this psalm is David and he is talking about being rescued from Saul (his enemies) right?

Now tell me, was David blameless? Did he keep all of the Law? I don't think so. Maybe you need to try again.

[moose7237]

verse 1: To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David, the servant of the LORD, who addressed the words of this song to the LORD on the day when the LORD rescued him from the hand of all his enemies, and from the hand of Saul. He said: I love you, O LORD, my strength.


OK the person in this psalm is David and he is talking about being rescued from Saul (his enemies) right?

Now tell me, was David blameless? Did he keep all of the Law? I don't think so. Maybe you need to try again.

I don't actually think it was David, let me tell you why:
in verse 50 shouldn't he have said "he gives his king Great victories and shows Unfailing Kindness to his anointed, TO ME, AND TO MY DESCENDANTS"

Number 2:
Exactly! It can't be David that is being talked about in this Psalms. Because this person is perfect David wasn't. So to say it was David that is reciting this psalms is not the best answer. It seems to fit only Jesus.

[jpholding]

Well You guys think I'm an idiot because I ask logical questions and you try to swerve away from them.

No, you ask stupid questions that you don't realize are stupid. Then when your points are answered, you pretend nothing has happened and repeat the same old garbage again and again. It is hardly coincidence that at least two other people here came to this same conclusion about you as I did, INDEPENDENTLY.

That you use as a source a site that thinks the Bible predicts a UFO invasion doesn't help your credibility either.

just because I don't accept the way you have become brainwashed, it doesn't give you the right to insult me.

Uh huh. Maybe it's time to drop the Narcissus mirror and admit you're outmatched.

Another point I brought up was God being unjust to the Jews by making them follow a strict law while Christians get a free ride.

Baloney. The NT describes Christians as SLAVES of Christ who are expected to serve him and do his bidding. Ignorant arguments like this show that you're arguing over a third grade version of Christianity.

[Sparko]

I don't actually think it was David, let me tell you why:
in verse 50 shouldn't he have said "he gives his king Great victories and shows Unfailing Kindness to his anointed, TO ME, AND TO MY DESCENDANTS"

Number 2:
Exactly! It can't be David that is being talked about in this Psalms. Because this person is perfect David wasn't. So to say it was David that is reciting this psalms is not the best answer. It seems to fit only Jesus.

Moose, I am trying to be civil here, but you are just blindly ignoring the evidence that is staring you in the face.

It SAYS it is David in verse 1. There is NO DOUBT. Nothing figurative about it. It is David talking in the psalm. He might claim to be blameless but that doesn't make him so. Perhaps he is speaking that he is blameless in the eyes of God because he has forgiveness of his sins through the messiah. But regardless, David was NOT sinless and he never did follow the law perfectly. NO BODY has, except Jesus. Not Moses (he murdered), not David (he murdered and committed adultery) NOBODY.

If the standard is to follow the law to be saved then NOBODY is going to heaven. Not even you. Have you followed the law? Do you follow it now? Have you stopped sinning? Are you sure you won't sin tomorrow or next week?

If you are sinless and can remain so for the rest of your life, then I will see you in heaven. I am going there through the sacrifice of Jesus because I sure can't rely on my perfection, I blew that long ago.

So basically what I see here is that you spout off various prooftexts that you think prove your point and when anyone shows that you are wrong using other verses or showing you the actual context of the verses, like I have done, you just say "I don't believe that, you are wrong" as if that were the end of it. The bible isn't a smörgåsbord where you just pick what parts you want to believe and toss out the rest.

Maybe you need to step back and think a bit. If everyone else is telling you that you are the one who is wrong, and if you read the commentaries on the verses and they tell you that you are wrong, maybe, just maybe, it is YOU who are wrong.

By the way, can you tell me about yourself? Do you believe in God at all? Are you Jewish? Just trying to get an idea of who I am talking to.

I am a Christian, non denominational, and have been one for about 6 years now.

[moose7237]

Baloney. The NT describes Christians as SLAVES of Christ who are expected to serve him and do his bidding. Ignorant arguments like this show that you're arguing over a third grade version of Christianity.

Oh and Mr. Holding what are you supposed to do to serve Jesus? You don't need to serve him, all you need is this:

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9, NIV)

wow, real tough to get into heaven, but the Jews not the same story, they had to follow a strict law everyday of their lives, and you just believe one little verse and you get heaven, real slave you are.

[moose7237]

It SAYS it is David in verse 1. There is NO DOUBT. Nothing figurative about it. It is David talking in the psalm. He might claim to be blameless but that doesn't make him so. Perhaps he is speaking that he is blameless in the eyes of God because he has forgiveness of his sins through the messiah. But regardless, David was NOT sinless and he never did follow the law perfectly. NO BODY has, except Jesus. Not Moses (he murdered), not David (he murdered and committed adultery) NOBODY.

Actually it says that in the heading, not in verse 1. David didn't write that heading someone else did, and if you read verse 50 it doesn't sound like David wrote that psalms. Now as for the sinless part. You are making an assumption with no evidence to back it up. David was never sinless, and he never fully kept all the laws. If you want to make that claim back it up. I can back up my claim to say that Jesus is sinless and tie him into this psalms. You know it yourself that the verses about being blameless fit Jesus' description and not David. Like I said look at verse 50, David did not write that psalms, and I showed you why in the last post I wrote to you.

[jpholding]

Oh and Mr. Holding what are you supposed to do to serve Jesus? You don't need to serve him, all you need is this:

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9, NIV)

Good night you are stupid!

Look, moron -- no one said anything about having to serve to be SAVED.

It's like gravity: As someone who jumps off a cliff falls, someone who is saved WILL inevitably serve Jesus, because they place themselves under his servitude and earnestly wish to serve him as a form of gratitude for salvation.

OldManZ connected you to my article which explains this (Semitic Totality) and all you did was go DUH!

wow, real tough to get into heaven, but the Jews not the same story, they had to follow a strict law everyday of their lives,

That's wrong also. That was only a view of one part of Judaism in the first century. Other parts of Judaism held the same view I describe above, while others were covenantal nomists (eg, entering a covenant was free, but to stay in it you had to follow the law). It's time you got your mossy nose out of stupid websites that predict alien invasions and dipped into some serious scholarship. Try the series titled Justification and Variegated Nomism to start. It doesn't have any pictures you can color, but I bet you can sit on it at dinner.