God's Injustice towards Jesus: crucifixion

[moose7237]

Yes he did know in advance, but I wasn't building my point on that so it doesn't matter.

Yes. Jesus did have the authority to say no to God. He willingly accepted his Father's will.

Don't take what I say out of context please. I said that Jesus was did not want to be crucified, but his desire to obey God's will was greater than his desire to not be crucified. Thus he voluntarily let himself be crucified.

I already responded to this. I will give you the full account. Judas and the guards come. Judas kisses Jesus. Jesus addresses Judas. Jesus adresses the guards. Guards seize Jesus. Peter attacks with sword. Jesus heals ear. So there you go. Like I said before, ommission is not the same as contradiction.

Don't tell me what my Bible says. I have already addressed this, and if you listened to what I say I wouldn't have to repeat myself. The poetry section of the OT is not good for establishing doctrine as it is full of expressions of emotion and generalizations, that, yes, are not necessarily true in every single instance

If you insist on taking poetry literally, then you can make the Bible say some pretty crazy stuff. That's true.

You do not understand Christian theology. Christ's sacrifice was the basis of salvation before it occurred as well as after. Like you said, God is omniscient and can see into the future. Thus Jesus could forgive a man because he had faith. God could account Abraham righteous because of his faith. And all of that because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Though the case with Israel is different because we are talking about a nation and not the salvation of an individual. Also there is a clear distinction between saving someone from hell, and saving them from worldly suffering. The first is eternal salvation, the second, temporary relief from suffering.

Hello and Peace be to you,

My point about David was that God knew that David was going to commit a major sin, yet he delivered him from his enemy, on the other hand, Jesus' prayer is not heard, he was forsaken. No justice for a person that never sinned.

NO!!! He didn't accept the Father's will. When you pray 3 times to be saved, and when you have your men keeping a watch out for you, you are not willing to be sacrificed. That's not the behavior of a person willing to sacrifice himself. I told you to look up what the word willing means. Let me post some synonyms for you just in case:
willing: cheerful, energetic, enthusiastic, inclined, unforced, pleased, happy
unwilling: afraid, against, disinclined, unwishful, OPPOSED



Now Jesus prayed against the Father's will. Jesus said all things are possible for you father, take this cup away from me. Father's will = kill Jesus
Jesus will = don't let me die. If Jesus knew that he was supposed to be killed on the cross there is no purpose of him praying. Also he kept his men on guard, and he wanted to keep moving away from the enemy but the enemy got to him. He was trying to hide in the garden of Getsatamene, if he didnt' he would have prayed somewhere more significant like the Jewish temple.

His desire was not to obey the father's will. See above.

You again don't see the difference. The way Jesus was found in Mark, Matthew and Luke was by the kiss of Judas, Jesus never said anything, because if he did tell them he was Jesus there is no need for a kiss, yet in John the priests say who is Jesus and Jesus responds. In the other 3 gospels no record of the guards asking for Jesus and no response of Jesus to the guards, yet in John no kiss, Jesus turns himself in. Also in John, it seem like Jesus was waiting for them, for some reason John never mentioned Jesus praying.

So let me get this straight, the holy spirit inspired David to write lies? David said that if a righteous man prays out when they are in trouble, God would save them from all of their troubles. Poetry is not that complicated. Yet you are saying its not true, a righteous person will not always be saved. David was saved from Saul and he wasn't righteous according to Paul. Jesus who is supposedly the only righteous person, his prayers to be saved won't get accepted???


I know what literal and metaphorical. If David said that a RIGHTEOUS man prays out he will be saved no matter what. Jesus according to chrisitanity is the only righteous person.

Whoa! show me in the OT that Jesus sacrifice was linked to God's forgiveness of sin. That is, show me in the OT that God only forgave sins because Jesus was going to die on the cross. Abraham was righteous because of faith and works, as a matter of fact Abraham had nations blessed because of only his works of following God's commandments and obeying his laws. The case of Israel is even worse then, because God forgave everybody in Israel because he loved them. He could have done the same thing with Jesus, thus sparing him. That would be the ultimate love wouldn't you say? My whole point to bring Isaiah 43:23-25 is because Christians always say that there has to be a penalty for sin, wrong, because God forgave all of israel, everyone in Israel without any sacrifices only love. He could have done the same thing to the world and not have an innocent man suffer for the guilty, which is morally unjust initself. Show us that God here was talking about world suffering and not hell. I think if he forgave them of their sins then they don't have to worry about it in the afterlife.

[Muhd]

Hello and Peace be to you,

My point about David was that God knew that David was going to commit a major sin, yet he delivered him from his enemy, on the other hand, Jesus' prayer is not heard, he was forsaken. No justice for a person that never sinned.

Sure there is justice. Now Jesus reigns in heaven for eternity.

NO!!! He didn't accept the Father's will.

Yes, he did. That's why he was crucified. He accepted it. You can whine and complain that the gospels are wrong, but you have yet to substantiate your claims.

When you pray 3 times to be saved, and when you have your men keeping a watch out for you, you are not willing to be sacrificed.

You assume that is why Jesus had them keep watch. I say Jesus had them keep watch for their own benefit.

That's not the behavior of a person willing to sacrifice himself. I told you to look up what the word willing means. Let me post some synonyms for you just in case:
willing: cheerful, energetic, enthusiastic, inclined, unforced, pleased, happy
unwilling: afraid, against, disinclined, unwishful, OPPOSED

Those are synonyms of the definition for willing I am not using. When I say "willing" I mean it was "voluntary". Just because I am willing to get out of bed each morning doesn't mean I am cheerful about it. In fact, I rarely am.

Now Jesus prayed against the Father's will. Jesus said all things are possible for you father, take this cup away from me. Father's will = kill Jesus
Jesus will = don't let me die.

No. Jesus' desire to follow God's will > Jesus' desire to live => Jesus' will = God's will = sacrifice on the cross.

If Jesus knew that he was supposed to be killed on the cross there is no purpose of him praying.

He knew that that was God's plan, but in his intense emotion he hoped that there might be another way. Jesus was not omniscient all the time on Earth.

Also he kept his men on guard, and he wanted to keep moving away from the enemy but the enemy got to him. He was trying to hide in the garden of Getsatamene, if he didnt' he would have prayed somewhere more significant like the Jewish temple.

No. If he prayed in the Jewish temple, he wouldn't have had time to pray because he would have been arrested immediately.

His desire was not to obey the father's will. See above.

You have not shown that by any means.

You again don't see the difference. The way Jesus was found in Mark, Matthew and Luke was by the kiss of Judas, Jesus never said anything, because if he did tell them he was Jesus there is no need for a kiss, yet in John the priests say who is Jesus and Jesus responds. In the other 3 gospels no record of the guards asking for Jesus and no response of Jesus to the guards, yet in John no kiss, Jesus turns himself in. Also in John, it seem like Jesus was waiting for them, for some reason John never mentioned Jesus praying.

It was a custom of the time for the disciple to kiss his master when greeting him. It was natural for Judas to do so, but it was also part of his agreement. John probably didn't include because:
1. It was implied
2. The other gospels had already given an account of the interaction between Judas and Jesus
I think that if you read the Qur'an the same way you read the Bible, you would stop being a Muslim quite quickly. You want contradictions to be there so badly, so you see contradictions in simple differences.

So let me get this straight, the holy spirit inspired David to write lies? David said that if a righteous man prays out when they are in trouble, God would save them from all of their troubles. Poetry is not that complicated. Yet you are saying its not true, a righteous person will not always be saved. David was saved from Saul and he wasn't righteous according to Paul. Jesus who is supposedly the only righteous person, his prayers to be saved won't get accepted???

I already told you. You have no desire to understand. It is called generalizing. Like the statement "Birds fly". Is that a lie? According to you, it must be since penguins don't fly and neither do ostriches. But that is just rediculous.

Whoa! show me in the OT that Jesus sacrifice was linked to God's forgiveness of sin. That is, show me in the OT that God only forgave sins because Jesus was going to die on the cross.

It wasn't elaborated on until the NT. That is just Christian theology though, I don't know the scripture it's from. I can look into it if you like. It may just be speculation by theologians. Anyways, its a possible explanation.

Abraham was righteous because of faith and works, as a matter of fact Abraham had nations blessed because of only his works of following God's commandments and obeying his laws.

Abraham's faith produced works. Faith and works go hand in hand.

The case of Israel is even worse then, because God forgave everybody in Israel because he loved them. He could have done the same thing with Jesus, thus sparing him. That would be the ultimate love wouldn't you say? My whole point to bring Isaiah 43:23-25 is because Christians always say that there has to be a penalty for sin, wrong, because God forgave all of israel, everyone in Israel without any sacrifices only love. He could have done the same thing to the world and not have an innocent man suffer for the guilty, which is morally unjust initself. Show us that God here was talking about world suffering and not hell. I think if he forgave them of their sins then they don't have to worry about it in the afterlife.

Israel is a nation and Jesus is a person. They are not analagous. The nation of Israel is not a person, and thus cannot be sent to hell. Stick to examples of individuals, please.

[Muhd]

It wasn't elaborated on until the NT. That is just Christian theology though, I don't know the scripture it's from. I can look into it if you like. It may just be speculation by theologians. Anyways, its a possible explanation.

I found it. Take a look:

Hebrews 9-10:18 NET (emphasis added)

The Arrangement and Ritual of the Earthly Sanctuary

9:1 Now the first covenant, in fact, had regulations for worship and its earthly sanctuary. 9:2 For a tent was prepared, the outer one, which contained the lampstand, the table, and the presentation of the loaves; this is called the holy place. 9:3 And after the second curtain there was a tent called the holy of holies. 9:4 It contained the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered entirely with gold. In this ark were the golden urn containing the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 9:5 And above the ark were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Now is not the time to speak of these things in detail. 9:6 So with these things prepared like this, the priests enter continually into the outer tent as they perform their duties. 9:7 But only the high priest enters once a year into the inner tent, and not without blood that he offers for himself and for the sins of the people committed in ignorance. 9:8 The Holy Spirit is making clear that the way into the holy place had not yet appeared as long as the old tabernacle was standing. 9:9 This was a symbol for the time then present, when gifts and sacrifices were offered that could not perfect the conscience of the worshiper. 9:10 They served only for matters of food and drink and various washings; they are external regulations imposed until the new order came.

Christ’s Service in the Heavenly Sanctuary

9:11 But now Christ has come as the high priest of the good things to come. He passed through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, 9:12 and he entered once for all into the most holy place not by the blood of goats and calves but by his own blood, and so he himself secured eternal redemption. 9:13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a young cow sprinkled on those who are defiled consecrated them and provided ritual purity, 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
9:15 And so he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the eternal inheritance he has promised, since he died to set them free from the violations committed under the first covenant. 9:16 For where there is a will, the death of the one who made it must be proven. 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it carries no force while the one who made it is alive. 9:18 So even the first covenant was inaugurated with blood. 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every command to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 9:20 and said, “This is the blood of the covenant that God has commanded you to keep.” 9:21 And both the tabernacle and all the utensils of worship he likewise sprinkled with blood. 9:22 Indeed according to the law almost everything was purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 9:23 So it was necessary for the sketches of the things in heaven to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves required better sacrifices than these. 9:24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands – the representation of the true sanctuary – but into heaven itself, and he appears now in God’s presence for us. 9:25 And he did not enter to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the sanctuary year after year with blood that is not his own, 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer again and again since the foundation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the consummation of the ages to put away sin by his sacrifice. 9:27 And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment, 9:28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await him he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.
Concluding Exposition: Old and New Sacrifices Contrasted
10:1 For the law possesses a shadow of the good things to come but not the reality itself, and is therefore completely unable, by the same sacrifices offered continually, year after year, to perfect those who come to worship. 10:2 For otherwise would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers would have been purified once for all and so have no further consciousness of sin? 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year after year. 10:4 For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins. 10:5 So when he came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me.
10:6 “Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in.
10:7 “Then I said, ‘Here I am: I have come – it is written of me in the scroll of the book – to do your will, O God.’”
10:8 When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you did not desire nor did you take delight in them” (which are offered according to the law), 10:9 then he says, “Here I am: I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first to establish the second. 10:10 By his will we have been made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 10:11 And every priest stands day after day serving and offering the same sacrifices again and again – sacrifices that can never take away sins. 10:12 But when this priest had offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, he sat down at the right hand of God, 10:13 where he is now waiting until his enemies are made a footstool for his feet. 10:14 For by one offering he has perfected for all time those who are made holy. 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us, for after saying, 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will establish with them after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws on their hearts and I will inscribe them on their minds,” 10:17 then he says, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no longer.” 10:18 Now where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

It is clear from this passage that the sacrifice of animals was only to fix in Isreal's mind the idea that sin demands sacrifice. The sin offerings of the OT set the stage for Christ's sacrifice, which justified all men of faith for all time. It must be the case that Christ's sacrifice brought justification to those who lived before him, since their sacrificial offerings were not enough. And the Bible is quite clear here that "without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness".

Hebrews 11 NET (Emphasis added)

11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, being convinced of what we do not see. 11:2 For by it the people of old received God’s commendation. 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were set in order at God’s command, so that the visible has its origin in the invisible. 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a greater sacrifice than Cain, and through his faith he was commended as righteous, because God commended him for his offerings. And through his faith he still speaks, though he is dead. 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he did not see death, and he was not to be found because God took him up. For before his removal he had been commended as having pleased God. 11:6 Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 11:7 By faith Noah, when he was warned about things not yet seen, with reverent regard constructed an ark for the deliverance of his family. Through faith he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place he would later receive as an inheritance, and he went out without understanding where he was going. 11:9 By faith he lived as a foreigner in the promised land as though it were a foreign country, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, who were fellow heirs of the same promise. 11:10 For he was looking forward to the city with firm foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11:11 By faith, even though Sarah herself was barren and he was too old, he received the ability to procreate, because he regarded the one who had given the promise to be trustworthy. 11:12 So in fact children were fathered by one man – and this one as good as dead – like the number of stars in the sky and like the innumerable grains of sand on the seashore. 11:13 These all died in faith without receiving the things promised, but they saw them in the distance and welcomed them and acknowledged that they were strangers and foreigners on the earth. 11:14 For those who speak in such a way make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. 11:15 In fact, if they had been thinking of the land that they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 11:16 But as it is, they aspire to a better land, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them. 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac. He had received the promises, yet he was ready to offer up his only son. 11:18 God had told him, “Through Isaac descendants will carry on your name,” 11:19 and he reasoned that God could even raise him from the dead, and in a sense he received him back from there. 11:20 By faith also Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning the future. 11:21 By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped as he leaned on his staff. 11:22 By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, mentioned the exodus of the sons of Israel and gave instructions about his burial.
11:23 By faith, when Moses was born, his parents hid him for three months, because they saw the child was beautiful and they were not afraid of the king’s edict. 11:24 By faith, when he grew up, Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 11:25 choosing rather to be ill-treated with the people of God than to enjoy sin’s fleeting pleasure. 11:26 He regarded abuse suffered for Christ to be greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for his eyes were fixed on the reward. 11:27 By faith he left Egypt without fearing the king’s anger, for he persevered as though he could see the one who is invisible. 11:28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that the one who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. 11:29 By faith they crossed the Red Sea as if on dry ground, but when the Egyptians tried it, they were swallowed up. 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell after the people marched around them for seven days. 11:31 By faith Rahab the prostitute escaped the destruction of the disobedient, because she welcomed the spies in peace.
11:32 And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets. 11:33 Through faith they conquered kingdoms, administered justice, gained what was promised, shut the mouths of lions, 11:34 quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, gained strength in weakness, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight, 11:35 and women received back their dead raised to life. But others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain resurrection to a better life. 11:36 And others experienced mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 11:37 They were stoned, sawed apart, murdered with the sword; they went about in sheepskins and goatskins; they were destitute, afflicted, ill-treated 11:38 (the world was not worthy of them); they wandered in deserts and mountains and caves and openings in the earth. 11:39 And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us.

Here we see that people in the OT were justified by faith. Some of these people never made any sacrificial offering to God, they lived before God instituted sin offerings, yet God justified them because of their faith through Christ's sacrifice to come.

[Muhd]

Also, bear in mind that according to the Bible, Jesus is God. All your nonsense about God forsaking him is nonsense in light of that.

[Sevivon1913]

So you merely decide to disbelieve it because it disagrees with you? Perhaps the Muslim Digest is not published online you dolt! It is quoted in other places if you do a search: http://media.isnet.org/antar/etc/DeedatBalance.html


Do a search on Deedat! He is very vocal about his believing Jesus was actually crucified and merely "fainted" on the cross.

Here is his own words from a debate with Josh McDowell:

http://answering-islam.org/Debates/Deedat_McDowell.html

"Hence in debates that involved disproving the divinity of Christ, the mentioning of Prophet Muhammad in both Old and New Testament, the corruption of the Bible, and most controversially, Crucifixion or Cruci-Fiction; Deedat was able to convince even the most skeptical of Christian audiences or at the very least, mute an effective counter-response. Many former Christians (and even former non-practicing Muslims) worldwide attribute their conversion to Islam from having either watched a Deedat debate or having read his literature (although it would be an overstatement to attribute conversion to this alone)." - Wikipedia

There must be alot of stupid people in this world to believe his rubbish about Muhammad in the "OT" (Deut 18:18 no doubt...what morons) & "NT" (presumably the reference to "the comforter", oh how dumb), and somehow disproving the divinity of Christ using a book that declares nothing else!

Yes, Deedat was a very stupid individual. Fortunately for him, his prospective American converts (I hear there are alot in Texas) were all stupid too.

Really, the notion that the crucifixion was a FAKE (i.e. Judas' face altered into Jesus' face, so Judas was killed) is so ridiculously idiotic that I can't mentally comprehend it. Infact, by it's very nature, the whole "miracle" seems to suggest that Allaah "accidentally" invented Christianity and the whole ressurection belief in the first place, only to later send people to hell for believing that very thing!!!!!!!!!!!!! What proof is there? Some stupid book from 600 yrs later. Wow. I think I'll become a Muslim now! Duh. Why is there such ignorance in the world? Do people consciously SEEK to be duped? Atleast Christianity comes down to an ultimate matter of whether you accept certain evidence (which is, ultimately, subjective and by no means uncredible). Islam does nothing but depend on the illiteracy and lack of knowledge of Christianity and Judaism for it's propagation, and it manipulates orientalism by appealing to people's sense of "mystery of the east" (oooh how wonderful). Really, there's no mystery - Islam is a barbaric, backward, FALSE circus and it is spread by clowns.

[moose7237]

Sure there is justice. Now Jesus reigns in heaven for eternity.

Yes, he did. That's why he was crucified. He accepted it. You can whine and complain that the gospels are wrong, but you have yet to substantiate your claims. You assume that is why Jesus had them keep watch. I say Jesus had them keep watch for their own benefit. Those are synonyms of the definition for willing I am not using. When I say "willing" I mean it was "voluntary". Just because I am willing to get out of bed each morning doesn't mean I am cheerful about it. In fact, I rarely am.
No. Jesus' desire to follow God's will > Jesus' desire to live => Jesus' will = God's will = sacrifice on the cross.
He knew that that was God's plan, but in his intense emotion he hoped that there might be another way. Jesus was not omniscient all the time on Earth.
No. If he prayed in the Jewish temple, he wouldn't have had time to pray because he would have been arrested immediately.
You have not shown that by any means.

It was a custom of the time for the disciple to kiss his master when greeting him. It was natural for Judas to do so, but it was also part of his agreement. John probably didn't include because:
1. It was implied
2. The other gospels had already given an account of the interaction between Judas and Jesus
I think that if you read the Qur'an the same way you read the Bible, you would stop being a Muslim quite quickly. You want contradictions to be there so badly, so you see contradictions in simple differences.

I already told you. You have no desire to understand. It is called generalizing. Like the statement "Birds fly". Is that a lie? According to you, it must be since penguins don't fly and neither do ostriches. But that is just rediculous.

It wasn't elaborated on until the NT. That is just Christian theology though, I don't know the scripture it's from. I can look into it if you like. It may just be speculation by theologians. Anyways, its a possible explanation.

Abraham's faith produced works. Faith and works go hand in hand.

Israel is a nation and Jesus is a person. They are not analagous. The nation of Israel is not a person, and thus cannot be sent to hell. Stick to examples of individuals, please.

1. Where is the justice while Jesus was on earth and he was desperate and his sweat was like drops of blood??? No justice there whatsoever. David could be in heaven as well, he gets justice both on earth and he dwells in heaven. My point is where is the justice for Jesus on earth???

2. No Jesus told them to keep watch while HE goes and prays. Then he had the guys from zedebee and Peter close to him. If it was for their benefit he would never have brought the disciples and would have just prayed by himself while they are safe hiding somewhere. It was for him to be protected. And no he didn't accept dying on the cross. He was forced to it, he then accusses God of forsaking him, is this the behavior of a person volunteering to die on the cross???

3. No you are forced to get out of bed each morning maybe to provide for yourself. Jesus was forced on the cross. When you pray against the father's will and he doesn't spare you, you are forced.

4. This doesn't matter about Jesus wanting the Father's will. Jesus wanted another way besides the cross, as a matter of fact he said "take this cup from me". Are you saying God is so cruel that he will say "naa... Jesus you have to suffer, even though I can forgive everyone of their sins without any sacrifices" Then you follow a religion where your God is a blood thirsty cruel being that likes to kill an innocent person for guilty sins.

5. HE HOPED. Could God have forgiven all of man's sins without atonement? Did he do it before Jesus? Didn't Jesus forgive a sick man without any animal sacrifices. YES. So it could have been done, yet God wanted the alternative of having Jesus suffer.

6. Why was it necessary for Jesus to pray in the first place? He knew the father's will, ergo no need to pray at all.

7. show me in the gospel of John where it was implied that Judas kissed Jesus. The fact that Jesus turned himself in, in John's gospel and not the other 3 shows different accounts.

8. Show where John asked the other 3 writers what they had and then he decides its not important to include the kiss. I don't think John ever asked the other 3 gospel writers to see what they had.

9. The Quran doesn't have multiple authors, that's why the bible is easy to find differences in. If you want to talk about the Quran jump to the Islam forum.

10. Show proof that the verses I quoted from Psalms are generalizations, or are they your assumptions? Even if it was a generalization, will God deny the only sinless man ever of any prayers? If yes, show us then how any of our prayers could ever be answered if Jesus who is the only righteous person has his rejected.

11. Show us where in the NT that the only way God forgave sins was because of the event of the cross. God FORGAVE Israel in the OT, he never said I WILL FORGIVE, so the cross is irrelevant.

12. If faith and works go hand in hand, don't just say faith is the only needed to be righteous.

13. Tell me how a nation sins. Is a nation alive in order to sin? Its the people within the nation that sins, read a commentary to help you, and God forgave all of the people in Israel. Ergo they are not responsible for their sins in this life nor the next. Hence God is able to forgive sins without atonement. If you want individual cases, read Ezekiel 18, where God says if a wicked person starts doing good deeds his soul will live, he never said first make an atonement for your sins then do good deeds. Also in that chapter you will read that original sin is not supported by God in the OT.

[moose7237]

Also, bear in mind that according to the Bible, Jesus is God. All your nonsense about God forsaking him is nonsense in light of that.

Riiiiiiiiiiight, Jesus forsook himself

[Muhd]

1. Where is the justice while Jesus was on earth and he was desperate and his sweat was like drops of blood??? No justice there whatsoever. David could be in heaven as well, he gets justice both on earth and he dwells in heaven. My point is where is the justice for Jesus on earth???

There was no justice on earth. Few people if anyone gets real justice before they die. But Jesus, who was God, chose to accept the injustice of men and save us out of his great love for us.

2. No Jesus told them to keep watch while HE goes and prays. Then he had the guys from zedebee and Peter close to him. If it was for their benefit he would never have brought the disciples and would have just prayed by himself while they are safe hiding somewhere. It was for him to be protected. And no he didn't accept dying on the cross. He was forced to it, he then accusses God of forsaking him, is this the behavior of a person volunteering to die on the cross???

Perhaps he gave them the task of guarding him so he could admonish them when they failed at so simple a task. That's what I mean "for their benefit". Don't presume to know what Jesus would do. It was the father's will to forsake the Son and it was the Son's will to do the father's will.

Matthew (NET, emphasis added)

14:36 He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 14:37 Then he came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “Simon, are you sleeping? Couldn’t you stay awake for one hour? 14:38 Stay awake and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 14:39 He went away again and prayed the same thing. 14:40 When he came again he found them sleeping; they could not keep their eyes open. And they did not know what to tell him. 14:41 He came a third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough of that! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Yes, Jesus did not want to be crucified. No one wants to be crucified. Yet the construction verse 36 shows that Jesus wanted to do God's will more than he wanted to avoid crucifixion. Also note Peter falling asleep. He wasn't a very effective guard.

3. No you are forced to get out of bed each morning maybe to provide for yourself. Jesus was forced on the cross. When you pray against the father's will and he doesn't spare you, you are forced.

You really do not understand me very well. It is very irritating. I gave that example to demonstrate conflicting desires.
My desire to do what needs to be done > My desire to sleep
Jesus' desire to follow God's plan for salvation > His desire to avoid pain and death

4. This doesn't matter about Jesus wanting the Father's will. Jesus wanted another way besides the cross, as a matter of fact he said "take this cup from me". Are you saying God is so cruel that he will say "naa... Jesus you have to suffer, even though I can forgive everyone of their sins without any sacrifices" Then you follow a religion where your God is a blood thirsty cruel being that likes to kill an innocent person for guilty sins.

But God cannot forgive sins without sacrifice. I showed that in the Hebrews text. You should read it, as it elaborates on theology very relevant to this discussion. In God's great love for us he provided a way for us to live with him through his Son, who was willing to comply.

5. HE HOPED. Could God have forgiven all of man's sins without atonement? Did he do it before Jesus? Didn't Jesus forgive a sick man without any animal sacrifices. YES. So it could have been done, yet God wanted the alternative of having Jesus suffer.

As I have demonstrated and stated before, God and Jesus could forgive based on Christ's sacrifice that was yet to come. You should read and understand what I say before you attack it.

6. Why was it necessary for Jesus to pray in the first place? He knew the father's will, ergo no need to pray at all.

Jesus loved to be in communion with the Father, and needed to pray to Him in his most desparate hour. Although, that's just my speculation. Who knows? Anyways this is an entirely different topic and deviates from what we are discussing.

7. show me in the gospel of John where it was implied that Judas kissed Jesus. The fact that Jesus turned himself in, in John's gospel and not the other 3 shows different accounts.

I already told you but you don't understand. In that society, when a disciple met his master, it was very common for the disciple to kiss the master in greeting. Thus anyone reading John's words when it was written would probably realize that Judas kissed Jesus at this point without John even having to mention it.

8. Show where John asked the other 3 writers what they had and then he decides its not important to include the kiss. I don't think John ever asked the other 3 gospel writers to see what they had.

That's even worse then for your side because that means that John gave an independent account of Jesus' life that was in accordance with the other Gospels, showing them to be true.

10. Show proof that the verses I quoted from Psalms are generalizations, or are they your assumptions? Even if it was a generalization, will God deny the only sinless man ever of any prayers? If yes, show us then how any of our prayers could ever be answered if Jesus who is the only righteous person has his rejected.

Why do I need to show you proof? It is you who says the Bible is wrong so you must prove that it isn't generalization. God answered Jesus' prayer. The answer was, "This is my will. There is no other way."

11. Show us where in the NT that the only way God forgave sins was because of the event of the cross. God FORGAVE Israel in the OT, he never said I WILL FORGIVE, so the cross is irrelevant.

I already showed this in the hebrew text.

12. If faith and works go hand in hand, don't just say faith is the only needed to be righteous.

Works do not bring salvation but faith does. Faith brings salvation and works. Both.

13. Tell me how a nation sins. Is a nation alive in order to sin? Its the people within the nation that sins, read a commentary to help you, and God forgave all of the people in Israel. Ergo they are not responsible for their sins in this life nor the next. Hence God is able to forgive sins without atonement. If you want individual cases, read Ezekiel 18, where God says if a wicked person starts doing good deeds his soul will live, he never said first make an atonement for your sins then do good deeds. Also in that chapter you will read that original sin is not supported by God in the OT.

I already adressed this in the Hebrews text. Go here:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...&postcount=153
Read the bold text and my comments at the very least. Or you could just scroll up to the post and do that. Either way.

[Muhd]

Also note that it is not my job to prove anything. You are the attacker, the burden of proof is on you. If I can find viable interpretations of scripture that refute your claims than I am the victor.

[moose7237]

There was no justice on earth. Few people if anyone gets real justice before they die. But Jesus, who was God, chose to accept the injustice of men and save us out of his great love for us.

Perhaps he gave them the task of guarding him so he could admonish them when they failed at so simple a task. That's what I mean "for their benefit". Don't presume to know what Jesus would do. It was the father's will to forsake the Son and it was the Son's will to do the father's will.

Matthew (NET, emphasis added)

14:36 He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Take this cup away from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” 14:37 Then he came and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, “Simon, are you sleeping? Couldn’t you stay awake for one hour? 14:38 Stay awake and pray that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.” 14:39 He went away again and prayed the same thing. 14:40 When he came again he found them sleeping; they could not keep their eyes open. And they did not know what to tell him. 14:41 He came a third time and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough of that! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Yes, Jesus did not want to be crucified. No one wants to be crucified. Yet the construction verse 36 shows that Jesus wanted to do God's will more than he wanted to avoid crucifixion. Also note Peter falling asleep. He wasn't a very effective guard.

You really do not understand me very well. It is very irritating. I gave that example to demonstrate conflicting desires.
My desire to do what needs to be done > My desire to sleep
Jesus' desire to follow God's plan for salvation > His desire to avoid pain and death

But God cannot forgive sins without sacrifice. I showed that in the Hebrews text. You should read it, as it elaborates on theology very relevant to this discussion. In God's great love for us he provided a way for us to live with him through his Son, who was willing to comply.

As I have demonstrated and stated before, God and Jesus could forgive based on Christ's sacrifice that was yet to come. You should read and understand what I say before you attack it.

Jesus loved to be in communion with the Father, and needed to pray to Him in his most desparate hour. Although, that's just my speculation. Who knows? Anyways this is an entirely different topic and deviates from what we are discussing.

I already told you but you don't understand. In that society, when a disciple met his master, it was very common for the disciple to kiss the master in greeting. Thus anyone reading John's words when it was written would probably realize that Judas kissed Jesus at this point without John even having to mention it.

That's even worse then for your side because that means that John gave an independent account of Jesus' life that was in accordance with the other Gospels, showing them to be true.

Why do I need to show you proof? It is you who says the Bible is wrong so you must prove that it isn't generalization. God answered Jesus' prayer. The answer was, "This is my will. There is no other way."

I already showed this in the hebrew text.

Works do not bring salvation but faith does. Faith brings salvation and works. Both.

I already adressed this in the Hebrews text. Go here:
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...&postcount=153
Read the bold text and my comments at the very least. Or you could just scroll up to the post and do that. Either way.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Riiiiiiiiiiight, God won't even give the righteous justice on earth, especially the sinless righteous person. What a loving God you believe in.

2. So you're saying Jesus brought them to fulfill the task of not going to sleep? Umm...no. He brought them to look out for him while he prays, to be protected of the enemy, he took the 3 strongest warriors to his side when he was praying. It was for them to protect him. If he didn't need their protection their service is worthless and he wouldn't care if they slept or not.

3. Umm...no, the verses show the opposite, Jesus falling to his face in utter humiliation to pray for another way, that's what he really wanted. If he wanted the father's will, his prayer is useless. What is he going to pray for the enemy to arrive faster to get the Father's will over with faster??? Anyone would know that his main purpose of praying 3 times in Getsatemene was for another way besides the cross.

4. Evidently you don't understand me. Jesus was FORCED to do the Father's will because his will is to have Jesus die for man's sins. That's why when Jesus prayed for another way there was no response from the Father and later of course Jesus says he was forsaken by the father, which you agreed with. There was no way out for Jesus to be saved since the father forsook him. Also are there any verses that show the Father's will is to have Jesus die on the cross?

5. Umm...no, it showed there that there is no forgiveness of sin unless there is blood, innocent blood more specifically. Like I said earlier, which you didn't nor did the hebrew text prove, that God forgave, before the cross, all of Israel's people without any sacrifices. Before the cross the forgiveness of sin was blood as hebrews said, but God forgave without any atonement to the people of Israel.

6. Where did it say that God forgave based on the sacrifice of Jesus. If anything it said God couldn't forgive unless there was blood, since the event of the cross didn't happen, there was atonement for forgiveness of sin, yet God went against that and forgave Israel without any atonement.

7. Okay since John never mentioned the kiss, and you said it wasn't necessary, if you read John's account of the Garden WITHOUT of reading the other 3 gospels, would you have realized that Judas kissed Jesus?

8. Jesus needed to pray to the Father in his most desperate hour??? I'm sorry didn't you say that Jesus is God, the almighty creator of the world??? He NEEDED to pray when he was DESPERATE. Wow I never new that God would ever need to pray or ever become Desperate. But that's a different topic.

9. No John's account was not in accordinance with the other 3 gospel writers, so many details were left out. In John's account it seem as if Jesus was standing around waiting for Judas, in the other 3, he was desperate and praying. They differ dramatically, yet you are programmed with this idea that they are the same and there is no changing your mind.

10. Yippe, God is truly cruel. Since you said that God answered Jesus by saying "there is no other way" I want to know what verse that is so I can see the Father saying that, or are you making up the Father's response and not backing it up. Now to prove that it wasn't a generalization: Didn't David pray out in Psalms 18 to be saved from Saul when he was most desperate? Yes he did, was he saved, Yes he was. Go read that psalms to make sure I'm not lying. Is Jesus more righteous than David? Shouldn't Jesus' prayers be answered when he is most troubled? David was delivered from ALL of his troubles, so no its not a generalization.

11. Works don't bring salvation? Wow God was wrong then:
Ezekiel 18:9
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD

Do you see anything about faith there? I don't.

12. No you did not prove that Israel the was alive and could sin. I told you it was the people of Israel that sinned because only people can sin, not a piece of land. You didn't show anything to prove me wrong here, and since God forgave all of Israel's people, Hebrews is in contradiction.

[Muhd]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Riiiiiiiiiiight, God won't even give the righteous justice on earth, especially the sinless righteous person. What a loving God you believe in.

It may seem harsh to someone who is so focused on having a good life in this world. However, next an eternal reward a temporary amount of pain is hardly significant.

2. So you're saying Jesus brought them to fulfill the task of not going to sleep? Umm...no. He brought them to look out for him while he prays, to be protected of the enemy, he took the 3 strongest warriors to his side when he was praying. It was for them to protect him. If he didn't need their protection their service is worthless and he wouldn't care if they slept or not.

That's your unsubstantiated opinion. You have not shown anything wrong with what I believe.

3. Umm...no, the verses show the opposite, Jesus falling to his face in utter humiliation to pray for another way, that's what he really wanted. If he wanted the father's will, his prayer is useless. What is he going to pray for the enemy to arrive faster to get the Father's will over with faster??? Anyone would know that his main purpose of praying 3 times in Getsatemene was for another way besides the cross.

The prayer shows Jesus' human nature and his limited knowledge of God's will. Jesus really wanted the salvation of humanity just as much as the Father did, but in his humanity and in this trying moment he hoped that there might be some other way.

4. Evidently you don't understand me. Jesus was FORCED to do the Father's will because his will is to have Jesus die for man's sins. That's why when Jesus prayed for another way there was no response from the Father and later of course Jesus says he was forsaken by the father, which you agreed with. There was no way out for Jesus to be saved since the father forsook him. Also are there any verses that show the Father's will is to have Jesus die on the cross?

You have not shown that Jesus was FORCED to do God's will. I say that Jesus could have slain all the guards with a word and even ascended to heaven where he stood if he so wished. But he didn't. He desired to do the Father's will for him on earth. He says, "shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" And BTW, he says that immediately after Peter tries to stop the guards from arresting him. Jesus actually stops Peter from resisting the guards and willingly accepts "the cup" the Father had given him.

5. Umm...no, it showed there that there is no forgiveness of sin unless there is blood, innocent blood more specifically. Like I said earlier, which you didn't nor did the hebrew text prove, that God forgave, before the cross, all of Israel's people without any sacrifices. Before the cross the forgiveness of sin was blood as hebrews said, but God forgave without any atonement to the people of Israel.

It said "one sacrifice for all time". That means before, during, and after the crucifixion.

6. Where did it say that God forgave based on the sacrifice of Jesus. If anything it said God couldn't forgive unless there was blood, since the event of the cross didn't happen, there was atonement for forgiveness of sin, yet God went against that and forgave Israel without any atonement.

At least you have admitted that blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. And the passage is quite clear that sin offerings did not give true forgiveness. And since God forgave people in the OT by their faith, this shows that Christ's sacrifice must have applied for those people.

7. Okay since John never mentioned the kiss, and you said it wasn't necessary, if you read John's account of the Garden WITHOUT of reading the other 3 gospels, would you have realized that Judas kissed Jesus?

Any of John's contemporarys would probably have inferred it. And even if they didn't so what? Omitting an event for brevity does not amount to falsehood.

8. Jesus needed to pray to the Father in his most desperate hour??? I'm sorry didn't you say that Jesus is God, the almighty creator of the world??? He NEEDED to pray when he was DESPERATE. Wow I never new that God would ever need to pray or ever become Desperate. But that's a different topic.

That is a different topic. It has to do with Jesus' human/deity nature. A concept that Muslims seem to be incapable of understanding.

9. No John's account was not in accordinance with the other 3 gospel writers, so many details were left out. In John's account it seem as if Jesus was standing around waiting for Judas, in the other 3, he was desperate and praying. They differ dramatically, yet you are programmed with this idea that they are the same and there is no changing your mind.

You might change my mind if you showed they were more than just different. The fact of their difference is actually evidence of their validity since it means they were not conspired together. Though you have already admitted as much. BTW, you haven't seemed to change your mind on any of the positions you have taken in this thread despite my refutations, so I could just as easily claim that it is you who is being stubborn.

10. Yippe, God is truly cruel. Since you said that God answered Jesus by saying "there is no other way" I want to know what verse that is so I can see the Father saying that, or are you making up the Father's response and not backing it up. Now to prove that it wasn't a generalization: Didn't David pray out in Psalms 18 to be saved from Saul when he was most desperate? Yes he did, was he saved, Yes he was. Go read that psalms to make sure I'm not lying. Is Jesus more righteous than David? Shouldn't Jesus' prayers be answered when he is most troubled? David was delivered from ALL of his troubles, so no its not a generalization.

Just becomes some statements in the psalms are not generalizations does not prove that the others are not as well. Each statement much be examined carefully to determine how it ought to be interpretted. Jesus prayed that God's will be done, and that is just what happened.

11. Works don't bring salvation? Wow God was wrong then:
Ezekiel 18:9
9 He follows my decrees
and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign LORD

Do you see anything about faith there? I don't.

Oh my gosh why can't you understand this? Look, a man who obeys God obviously has faith in God. It just makes sense. No one obeys God because they do not trust in him. A man keeps God's commandments by faith, and that man is righteous. This is apparent in other scriptures, such as Hebrews 11 which I cited. I can also cite other scriptures if that is your desire.

12. No you did not prove that Israel the was alive and could sin. I told you it was the people of Israel that sinned because only people can sin, not a piece of land. You didn't show anything to prove me wrong here, and since God forgave all of Israel's people, Hebrews is in contradiction.

The "forgiveness" here did not refer to admission into eternal life. It referred to Israel coming out of exile on earth. It is not a matter of eternal salvation for individuals, it is a matter of earthly dominion for a nation. There is no connection between the two. And as I said before, God can forgive at any time before or after the crucifixion. Nothing you have said shows this to be false.

[Muhd]

I think now would be a good time for me to elaborate on our goals in this debate and how those goals must be reached. It has been your goal, from the beginning of this thread, to show that God was unjust toward Jesus, and thus show that Christian theology is inconsistent with itself, and therefore false. It is thus your task to demonstrate these inconsistancies and demonstrate that they really are inconsistancies. It is my task to explain why these inconsistancies are not really inconsistancies. My explanation can draw from any aspect of Christian theology without proving this aspect of the theology because in showing that something is consistant or not you must assume that it is true to start with. All I have to do is find any possible explanation to reconcile an alleged inconsistancy (or contradiction if you wish) and my task is complete.

Thus I do not have to prove any portion of my theology or any explanation for inconsistancies. It is your job to prove it false. Since you are initiating the attack on my position and claiming that it is inconsistant with itself, it is your job to provide ironclad proof of inconsistancy. It is not my job to show its consistancy. Any system of beliefs is considered consistant with itself until proven otherwise.

If I sat down and said, "moose, prove to me that the Qur'an is consistant" you would think this a very odd request. Because then you would have to go through every little sentence in the Qur'an and demonstrate how they fit together conherently. And then you would have to go through and show how the all the sentences fit together consistently and so forth. This, of course, is preposterous. Instead you should tell me, "Muhd, if you think the Qur'an is inconsistant with itself, then you must show me these inconsistancies and prove to me these inconsistencies. Only then can your belief that the Qur'an has inconsistancies be shown to be true".

So you see, the burden of proof always lies with the one who claims inconsistancy in a system of beliefs. The defender only has to show possible reconciliations of the inconsistancies presented by the attacker to show that the inconsistancies might not actually be inconsistancies. It is then the attackers job to show these reconciliations to be false and so on.

[moose7237]

It may seem harsh to someone who is so focused on having a good life in this world. However, next an eternal reward a temporary amount of pain is hardly significant.

That's your unsubstantiated opinion. You have not shown anything wrong with what I believe.

The prayer shows Jesus' human nature and his limited knowledge of God's will. Jesus really wanted the salvation of humanity just as much as the Father did, but in his humanity and in this trying moment he hoped that there might be some other way.

You have not shown that Jesus was FORCED to do God's will. I say that Jesus could have slain all the guards with a word and even ascended to heaven where he stood if he so wished. But he didn't. He desired to do the Father's will for him on earth. He says, "shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?" And BTW, he says that immediately after Peter tries to stop the guards from arresting him. Jesus actually stops Peter from resisting the guards and willingly accepts "the cup" the Father had given him.

It said "one sacrifice for all time". That means before, during, and after the crucifixion.

At least you have admitted that blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sins. And the passage is quite clear that sin offerings did not give true forgiveness. And since God forgave people in the OT by their faith, this shows that Christ's sacrifice must have applied for those people.
Any of John's contemporarys would probably have inferred it. And even if they didn't so what? Omitting an event for brevity does not amount to falsehood.

That is a different topic. It has to do with Jesus' human/deity nature. A concept that Muslims seem to be incapable of understanding.

You might change my mind if you showed they were more than just different. The fact of their difference is actually evidence of their validity since it means they were not conspired together. Though you have already admitted as much. BTW, you haven't seemed to change your mind on any of the positions you have taken in this thread despite my refutations, so I could just as easily claim that it is you who is being stubborn.

Just becomes some statements in the psalms are not generalizations does not prove that the others are not as well. Each statement much be examined carefully to determine how it ought to be interpretted. Jesus prayed that God's will be done, and that is just what happened.
Oh my gosh why can't you understand this? Look, a man who obeys God obviously has faith in God. It just makes sense. No one obeys God because they do not trust in him. A man keeps God's commandments by faith, and that man is righteous. This is apparent in other scriptures, such as Hebrews 11 which I cited. I can also cite other scriptures if that is your desire.

The "forgiveness" here did not refer to admission into eternal life. It referred to Israel coming out of exile on earth. It is not a matter of eternal salvation for individuals, it is a matter of earthly dominion for a nation. There is no connection between the two. And as I said before, God can forgive at any time before or after the crucifixion. Nothing you have said shows this to be false.

1. Its not about having a good life in this world or anything. Lets look at the history of some of the prophets:
Moses, when he was in trouble prayed to save the jews from Pharoah, God parts the red sea for him. He was saved in his time of trouble, truly a miracle
Jonah, thrown into the sea and swallowed by a whale, prayed to God to keep him alive, another miracle by God
David, being chased by Saul, prays to God in his most desperate hour and God saves him and hides him near a rock.
That's God's justice towards his prophets, but Jesus, prays for another way besides the cross what does he get? He's forsaken. Even if you say that he wanted the Father's will, regardless he was in trouble and God should have saved him if he truly loved him. Thus my verses in Psalms 34 are not a generalization and God lied when he said he would save his most righteous in their time of trouble. Jesus was not saved, he prayed 3 times and no he didn't want to do the father's will he just said it wasn't up to him to decide but up to the father to decide if he wants to save him.

2. In this situation, it is very evident you can't refute what I said, you are saying that Jesus brings out the disciples to teach them a lesson to stay awake and not fall asleep, I showed you that it was to protect him, because why does he need them to be awake when he prays? TO KEEP A LOOK OUT FROM THE ENEMY, not to show how long they can keep their eyes open for.

3. WHOA! It shows Jesus' human nature??? Please show us where in the bible Jesus says he has 2 natures. Not what Paul says but what Jesus says. I have yet to get a single christian Response when I bring this up.

4. No he prayed AGAINST the father's will, which I have shown. Jesus does not want to do the father's will. But since the Father left him for death, there was no other way for Jesus, hence he had no choice but to get crucified. Also read Psalms 22, the psalms that is supposedly about the crucifixion. Jesus time and time again asks for God's help to save him. Yet he was never saved. The only way was for the Father to help Jesus at that moment and he forsook him, so Jesus couldn't do anything else. Jesus was outnumbered, he couldn't have killed the soldiers, if he could have, then his prayers would have been answered, because Jesus didn't want to get crucified, so he would have killed the soldiers to get out of crucifixion, but there was no way for him.

5. One sacrifice for all time means that all sins that were not forgiven before the Crucifixion were supposedly forgiven and there is no need for atonement anymore. BUT what about the sins that WERE ALREADY FORGIVEN BY GOD'S MERCY???

6. Well at least you admitted that God forgave people by faith and not blood. You can't show the link of God's forgiveness in the OT to the cross. If you want to make that claim, back it up with verses of God showing that the cross is necessary for him to forgive sins based on their faith.If that happened, then you just contradicted Hebrews. God did forgive people without any sacrifices, he could have done the same thing to humanity while sparing Jesus, but he didn't he wanted Jesus to suffer. Truly a blood thirsty God he is.
Now to John. If you read John's account of the Garden without having any knowledge of the other 3 gospels, you will see that the way Jesus was arrested was because Jesus admitted to who he was. If you read the other 3 gospels you will see Jesus was arrested by the kiss of Judas, he said nothing of turning himself in. The kiss was in order to identify who Jesus was. If he admitted to who he was, there is no need for a kiss. Since John mentioned that Jesus turned himself in, in what way can you infer there was a kiss, it was not necessary. Therefore the accounts on Jesus' arrest are totally different.

8. see above about the accounts being different.

9. The psalms verses I showed in Psalms 34 are not generalizations, they are literal. Also you never mentioned that Jesus was condemned to death, even though none of God's servants are to be condemned to death if they trust in him. Another lie that God in the bible showed. God did condemn Jesus to death, but not Jonas, nor David, nor Moses.

10. My point here was not to show eternal life in any means. It was to show can God forgive sins without atonement? Yes he can and he did. Ergo, Hebrews is in contradiction. I agree that God can forgive at anytime before of after the crucifixion. But, before the crucifixion, the penalty of sin was atonement, yet God went AGAINST his nature of atonement and forgave the people of Israel without any atonement because he loved them. Since God can forgive sin without atonement, Jesus sacrifice was not necessary because God could have just forgiven everybody and spared Jesus from agony of the cross, and still have given them salvation by just believing in him. Also, I know if you obey God you have faith in him, but works produce faith and faith produce works. You can't have one without the other. How do you do good works? Following the law. And God said if you follow the law you will live.

[moose7237]

Also you said Jesus volunteered to do go to the cross.
Lets see some synonyms of voluntary:

free-willed, spontaneous, unasked, optional, UNFORCED.

Now Jesus was chosen one to go to the cross, he prayed against going to the cross, but since he was the one chosen to fulfill God's wants, he was FORCED.
God's will > Jesus' want to live.

God never answered that prayer for the cup to be taken from him, ergo there was no way out of it, he was forced up on that cross.

[Muhd]

WHOA! It shows Jesus' human nature??? Please show us where in the bible Jesus says he has 2 natures. Not what Paul says but what Jesus says. I have yet to get a single christian Response when I bring this up.

It's not my job to show where points of Christian theology can be found in scripture. It is your job to refute it. Though I will say that it is standard Christian doctrine; it has been around since Christianity's beginning. If you want a better answer on this perhaps you should make a thread for it.

Hebrews still makes it clear that Christ's sacrifice brought people in the OT forgiveness. You have not disproven this.

Jesus said, "yet not my will, but your will be done". You have yet to show that Jesus did not want to do God's will. In fact you cannot, Jesus is very clear on this point.

You cannot refute these things so you just say I'm wrong and state your original arguments. Please refute my arguments, concede I'm right, or post new arguments.

Voluntary does not mean unasked or spontaneous. And even if that were the definition then that is not what I mean. It means doing something of one's own volition. It means having the option not to do it. Jesus had this option. You have yet to show that he didn't.