God's Injustice towards Jesus: crucifixion

**moose7237** · December 7th 2006, 07:37 PM

[QUOTE=anewlife]I am only replying to the statements I have not previously commented on. I have addressed the other questions accordingly in previous posts.

I see the similarity between the two that Paul speaks of.

Well I would not say he proved anything empirically, but he did provide a reason to believe in a God. A reliable source will stem from an institution that performs scholarly research and has accountability and a paper trail (historical documentation) to confirm any statements. I am not sure if it would be prudent to say I reject all of Islam, but so far not one of the links you provided have been what I would consider as scholarly sources.

This is an assertion at this point on your part; I say your case is rubbish.

Circular reasoning of course, a God chose for it to be that way?

Scholars to me would be such as Darrel Bock, JP Moreland, Daniel Wallace, Bruce Metzger, William Lane Craig, F.F. Bruce, James Sawyer, John Frame, etc.

JP Holding does a fine job. He uses reliable sources to assemble his arguments. I do not have patience with the folks JP Holding was talking about either.

Excuse me? The Sunni’s are anti-Muslim? What have you shown that empirically proves the shia view as infallible? I have yet to meet anyone that is infallible; I have seen boasts and claims of infallibility, but that is all.

I see you make assertions about the hadiths, but I have seen nothing to back your claims. I have looked at both sides of the argument, and have concluded that the Sunni’s seem to have historicity and the majority of scholarship on their side. The sites I posted in my replies were from credible scholarly sources.

You seem to give the same lip-service Moose. You give links to anti-Christian sites and expect me to believe them. Nice try chuckle

13. Did you even read the site I gave you about the compialtion of the Quran??? Nope, so don't say you fail to see that the Quran is 100% when you have never researched it.

Yes I did, but I would like to get a second, and third opinions and look at the counter-claims. I have not seen any documentation that would make me believe the Qur’an is 100% anything at this point other than poetry.

Christian theology believes in the resurrected body in heaven. The verses state about the condition of the spirit (living on) before judgment day, and at that time, the dead will rise with the resurrected body. Orthodox Christianity does not believe in soul sleep.

Can you prove that this writing was earlier than the second century? Can you prove that Peter wrote this? I view it as Pseudepigrapha as does every NT scholar. You realize that the Gnostic/Docetist community held Jesus’ divinity above the normalcy of Orthodox Christianity correct?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism

I do not consider the Bible a science book, or the Qur’an. I do not recall any science teacher (in my studies) ever using either book to teach scientific principles from.

Well it’s about time you stay on track.

Hello and Peace be to all,

Sorry, but I've been busy as of late, and I will be busy for another 2 weeks or so, I know if I get to into responding these things, I will not be able to complete some of my tasks that need to get accomplished. Sorry for the delay, I just wanted to post to anewlife by saying, please stay on the crucifixion from now on. I can refute all of these points and by far I am not stumped, I just want this thread to get back on track, if a new thread is opened or this conversation is moved somewhere else, I would be more than happy to respond when I get the chance. Have a happy holidays all.

**moose7237** · December 21st 2006, 12:52 AM

Hello and Peace be to all,

Well I'm not so busy at this time, so I will be happy to reply again, especially to Anewlife, if he's still interested, or anyone for that matter. Take care all.

**moose7237** · February 6th 2007, 07:12 PM

Hello and Peace be to all,

No more takers on this subject? Come on, who wants to defend the crucifixion?

**anewlife** · February 12th 2007, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by moose7237

Hello and Peace be to all,

Well I'm not so busy at this time, so I will be happy to reply again, especially to Anewlife, if he's still interested, or anyone for that matter. Take care all.

No thanks I have already stated my case.

Unless you can muster any tangible evidence, then I have nothing more to add.

Take Care...

**moose7237** · February 12th 2007, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by anewlife

No thanks I have already stated my case.

Unless you can muster any tangible evidence, then I have nothing more to add.

Take Care...

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

How are ya doing Anewlife! Man it surely has been a while. I hope all is going well with you and hopefully you are at peace.

With that said, anyone else want to take on the subject?

**anewlife** · February 12th 2007, 04:16 PM

thanks!

I do wish you well my friend. I did respond to your Trinitarian post, unless you have anything new that will be my final post on that subject. Hope you take my posts in stride with a sense of humor (intertwined).

Good to see you are still on the forum. I am only a part-timer on this forum. So many forums, so little time kinda thing.

Hope your year is going well.

**xevolutionist** · February 12th 2007, 04:59 PM

I'll have to admit that I didn't read every post on this topic [after the first 4 pages it seemed like nothing new was forthcoming] and even if my remarks were already posted by someone else, I haven't posted for a while and I'm getting tired of the Evolution is Dead forums. Dee Dee is nagging me to resume participation here too.
So here is my reasoned response to your opening post.

[quote=moose7237;1605972]

hello everybody,
I will discuss God's injustice towards Jesus regarding the crucifixion, and how God favored David, the adulterer, over Jesus.

Ok, now we both know that King David was in need of God's help to protect him from Saul. David prayed and God saved him. Now God knew David was a sinner, because David was an adulterer, correct? I think I'm right. Now if you don't believe me in David being saved or you want to know where I got that information, it came from Psalm 18, (by the way, I think that psalm is a DIRECT revelation to Jesus). So God saved an adulterer from death. He committed adultery with Batshiba, if I'm not mistaken. Now God knew that David was going to commit this crime, but he still loved David so much that he saved him from Saul and his army.

There are many more reasons why God saved David other than his prayers.

Prayer is the main point here. God answers the righteous when they pray. Now everyone can agree that Jesus is the most righteous or even the only righteous person ever correct? okay.

He was the only sinless man, and that was possibly because of His dual nature, that of being fully God and fully man.

Now on to the crucifixion:
Of course Jesus knew that he was going to get crucified, because he had told his disciples before hand. Now in the Garden of Gestamene (I don't think I spelled it right) Jesus said this:

Matthew 26:39
Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

Mark 14:36
"Abba,[a] Father," he said, "everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will."

Luke 22:42
"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

So clearly, Jesus did not want to be crucified, but he knew it wasn't up to him.

In a way it was up to Him, Jesus as God is one with the Father, and it's entirely possible that He was coequal in making the decision to provide the justification for sinners to be set free from the penalty of sin.

It's plausible that Jesus, the man, had some reservations about the extreme pain that He would have to suffer, thus the prayer.

Now this will promt me to ask this question:
If Jesus knew that the will of the father was to have him killed, and that the prophecy in Psalm 22 must be fulfilled by him, why did he make that prayer in the first place? Why did he say "Take this cup from me?"

This could be an indication for believers that a very real price was paid for their absolution. If there were no cost of salvation it would be a meaningless sacrifice.

Now one might bring up this very verse:
John 12:27
"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

Now this is in complete contradiction to the other 3 verses posted. If you read what happened in the garden in the Gospel of John, you will find out it differs from Matthew, Luke, and Mark significantly, because in John, Jesus was willing to go with the enemy, in the other 3 Gospels Jesus said nothing and Judas kissed him, he didn't answer them when they asked "where is Jesus" like John says. As a matter of fact, when Jesus was in the Garden, John didn't even say that Jesus got down and prayed to the father to take the cup away. (At least not that I've seen)

So where I'm trying to get at here, is that John and the other 3 gospels, regarding the Garden are very different. Jesus did not want to go on the cross, he prayed to be saved from it. Another verse of Jesus praying is Hebrews 5:7

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Now lets look at Psalms 34:17
The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them;
he delivers them from all their troubles.

So Jesus should have been saved from the cross right? He did cry out to be saved, he did pray to be saved, but yet he was not saved! David on the other hand was.

Wrong, Why should have He been saved from the cross? He came for that specific purpose. God doesn't always answer our prayers in the way we want them answered. The Bible is for our instruction; history, illustrations, and teachings that we can understand. If this plea was intended to show that the sufferings of Christ were real, then the prayer served it's purpose. The only reason it's even being discussed here is that you believe you've found some error in the Bible that demonstates it's fallability. Fortunately, the fallability is yours.

Psalm 37:39-40
39But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Now if I'm not mistaken didn't God forsake Jesus when he was on the cross? I think he did, because Jesus accused him of it. Jesus was never delivered or saved from the wicked, as a matter of fact they utterly humiliated him!!!

Wrong again. If He had not risen from the grave He would have been humiliated, but He did rise. God's "forsaking" of Jesus was a momentary thing that was a result of Jesus' bearing the penalty of our sins. As our substitutionary sacrifice, Jesus had to be separated from the rest of the Godhood for that moment.

Psalms 34:21-22
21 Evil will slay the wicked;
the foes of the righteous will be condemned.

22 The LORD redeems his servants;
no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him.

Now I don't get it. God says that the wicked or evil people will be condemned, and he says that no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him. But Jesus was definitly condemned to death, but David on the other hand, was saved!

Jesus was condemned to die on the cross to pay for our sins, but He overcame death, for He lives today.

Now you might say that Jesus had to die for us, so our sins will be forgiven. Now the real question is: Is sacrifice the only way for God to forgive our sins? I don't think so:
Isaiah 43:23-25
You have not brought me sheep for burnt offerings,
nor honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with grain offerings
nor wearied you with demands for incense.

24 You have not bought any fragrant calamus for me,
or lavished on me the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins
and wearied me with your offenses.

25 "I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

Now I have read 4 commentaries that say that God loved Israel so much that even when they were wicked and still didn't think of God but he still loved them so much that he forgave them without any sacrifices. So God DID forgive them with no atonement, why couldn't he do the same and spare Jesus from utter suffering and humiliation? Why must Jesus beg and not be answered to be saved? God could have easily forgave the people of Israel again and not have the most rigtheous man get crucified.

God may forgive or relent from punishing as He desires, however it's not usually without some type of atonement. The blood of the animal sacrifices ony put off, like issuing a stay of execution, the penaty for those sins the people had comitted, and the attitude of the people was paramount, not the sacrifice. The sacrifices prior to Jesus' were just illustrations of the payment He would make on our behalf.

God demands a price be paid for sin, and that price is death. Jesus paid the price for us in His humanity.

Now here is what troubles me the most:
Psalm 18:50
He gives his king great victories;
he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed,
to David and his descendants forever.

The key word here is UNFAILING. God was very kind to David even when he committed adultery. Why wasn't he kind enough to save Jesus from suffering? How kind is it to put the only sinless man through torture of the enemy? Not Kind at all. I'm thinking for Jesus here, not mankind.

Now if you answer this arguement, please use logic and not rubbish. Like Jesus' human side wanted to be saved not his God side. That is stupid and illogical. Jesus wanted to be saved, and based on the verses I gave you, God not only is unjust, but lied as well.

I doubt you're concerned about Jesus suffering, and unless you acknowledge the dual natures of Jesus, then you don't understand Christian doctrine. It's logical for God to be just and not pardon everyone indiscriminately for their sins. It's grace that He provided a means that we might be saved justly.

Why would it be stupid and illogical for a man not to desire pain and suffering? For you to declare ahead of time that a certain argument is rubbish is of no real meaning. I can declare now that your future protestations that I have erred in my arguments are rubbish. I actually would be correct, but you won't accept that, will you? Neither do I accept your limitations on the argument.

Far from being unjust, this is an entirely logical way to provide a just remedy for our sins. Jesus is God, so He could never have been forced to undergo something that He was unwilling to do.

In conclusion,
David who was a sinner, was saved from Saul and his army when he prayed. Jesus prayed and got forsaken! Where is the love and justice?

In conclusion;
The love and the justice is what God showed us by not consigning us all to everlasting hell, but providing a means to escape that penalty. Jesus showed His love for us by paying the price for our sins and dying, but not staying dead, so that we can expect the things we are promised by God's word.

**moose7237** · February 13th 2007, 01:50 AM

[QUOTE=xevolutionist;1855553]I'll have to admit that I didn't read every post on this topic [after the first 4 pages it seemed like nothing new was forthcoming] and even if my remarks were already posted by someone else, I haven't posted for a while and I'm getting tired of the Evolution is Dead forums. Dee Dee is nagging me to resume participation here too.
So here is my reasoned response to your opening post.

Originally posted by moose7237

There are many more reasons why God saved David other than his prayers.

He was the only sinless man, and that was possibly because of His dual nature, that of being fully God and fully man.

In a way it was up to Him, Jesus as God is one with the Father, and it's entirely possible that He was coequal in making the decision to provide the justification for sinners to be set free from the penalty of sin.

It's plausible that Jesus, the man, had some reservations about the extreme pain that He would have to suffer, thus the prayer.

This could be an indication for believers that a very real price was paid for their absolution. If there were no cost of salvation it would be a meaningless sacrifice.

Wrong, Why should have He been saved from the cross? He came for that specific purpose. God doesn't always answer our prayers in the way we want them answered. The Bible is for our instruction; history, illustrations, and teachings that we can understand. If this plea was intended to show that the sufferings of Christ were real, then the prayer served it's purpose. The only reason it's even being discussed here is that you believe you've found some error in the Bible that demonstates it's fallability. Fortunately, the fallability is yours.

Wrong again. If He had not risen from the grave He would have been humiliated, but He did rise. God's "forsaking" of Jesus was a momentary thing that was a result of Jesus' bearing the penalty of our sins. As our substitutionary sacrifice, Jesus had to be separated from the rest of the Godhood for that moment.

Jesus was condemned to die on the cross to pay for our sins, but He overcame death, for He lives today.

God may forgive or relent from punishing as He desires, however it's not usually without some type of atonement. The blood of the animal sacrifices ony put off, like issuing a stay of execution, the penaty for those sins the people had comitted, and the attitude of the people was paramount, not the sacrifice. The sacrifices prior to Jesus' were just illustrations of the payment He would make on our behalf.

God demands a price be paid for sin, and that price is death. Jesus paid the price for us in His humanity.

I doubt you're concerned about Jesus suffering, and unless you acknowledge the dual natures of Jesus, then you don't understand Christian doctrine. It's logical for God to be just and not pardon everyone indiscriminately for their sins. It's grace that He provided a means that we might be saved justly.

Why would it be stupid and illogical for a man not to desire pain and suffering? For you to declare ahead of time that a certain argument is rubbish is of no real meaning. I can declare now that your future protestations that I have erred in my arguments are rubbish. I actually would be correct, but you won't accept that, will you? Neither do I accept your limitations on the argument.

Far from being unjust, this is an entirely logical way to provide a just remedy for our sins. Jesus is God, so He could never have been forced to undergo something that He was unwilling to do.

In conclusion;
The love and the justice is what God showed us by not consigning us all to everlasting hell, but providing a means to escape that penalty. Jesus showed His love for us by paying the price for our sins and dying, but not staying dead, so that we can expect the things we are promised by God's word.

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

1. I'm sure there are other reasons God saved David, I would think one of them is because how David viewed God as if you read the psalms he is always in submission to God.

2. I really don't agree that Jesus had dual natures. Can you find me one verse where Jesus says he has dual natures? Or one verse where God in the OT says he will be a man and God, this being a prophecy of course. The dual natures came after the death of Jesus(the idea of it that is)

3. No, Jesus is one with the father in love. Jesus admits that he can do nothing of his own, and he clearly states that it is up to the Father and not Jesus whether he is saved or not. Jesus did pray to be saved from death in Hebrews 5:7 too, so its not up to Jesus, if its up to Jesus he would not need to pray to be saved from death, since you claim he is God he would have saved himself. Is there any biblical support that Jesus' prayer in the Garden was his man side and not his God side? If there isn't one could easily assume its both.

4. Please, if you may, elaborate how "this could be an indication for believers that a very real price was paid for their absolution". No, salvation is not needed by original sin.

Mark 2:5
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Clearly, there was no sacrifice here, and since Jesus had the authority to forgive sin, by the Father's permission, then he could have forgiven all of mankind their sin by just believing in him. But the Father didn't answer Jesus' prayer to be saved, he wanted him crushed. Quite sad if you ask me.

5. Jesus should definitely have been saved from the cross. Read the verse I brought in Psalms 34, verse 17, it says if the righteous cry out God saves them from ALL their troubles. Surely, when Jesus had his face on the dirt in prostration, He is definitely in trouble and by that verse he should have been saved. Now if you read Hebrews 5:7, it says God heard Jesus' prayers, either God heard it and did nothing, or he heard it and saved Jesus. So Jesus was in trouble and God saved him from death. Now in the Garden, Jesus prays to be saved, but, nothing. Thus Psalms 34:17 is a false verse. Now on to where Jesus says he doesn't want to be saved from the cross:

John 12:27
"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

I don't know if you have read the events from the other 3 gospels in the Garden, because all 3 of them show that Jesus did the exact opposite of John 12:27. Jesus said he doesn't want to be saved from the cross, yet he contradicts himself in the Garden by praying for God to make another way for him and not let him get crucified. Clearly this is a contradiction. I don't know how you can defend that. You can say that I am wrong. You can get all of Christianity to say I am wrong. I can get all of Judaism to say that Jesus did not exist. I can get all of Islam to say that i am right and you are wrong. This doesn't bother me at all.

6. The rising from the grave does not show his victory. If you read the verses I showed, it clearly talks about when the righteous are in trouble. For example: Moses was in trouble, God parted the sea. Jonah was in trouble, God saved him in the belly of the whale. David was in trouble, God delivered him from Saul. Jesus was in trouble, God did nothing but forsake him. Now I can say that David, Moses, and Jonah will all resurrect, it doesn't mean anything. When they are in trouble is when God saves them, God didn't help Jesus when he is in trouble. When Jesus was dead he wasn't in trouble, so him rising doesn't really apply here. Now is there any biblical evidence to the reason you brought as why God forsook Jesus? As far as I know, in the OT, every man is responsible for his own sin. Read Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 30.

7. I can say we all overcome death. We are all going to resurrect. Others resurrected before Jesus, did they overcome death too? Jesus did take refuge in God and he was still condemned. That verse is false as well then.

8. Umm...no price paid in Isaiah 43. God even says that they didn't bring any sacrifices and he still forgave them. How do you explain that? This clearly shows that God can forgive without atonement. So one must ask, if he can forgive without atonement, why did he still have Jesus on the cross and not save him?

9. Justly? There is no moral justice in having an innocent man, who had his face on the dirt in prostration to not die on the cross, die for the sins he did not commit. Its like a father who has 4 kids. 3 of them commit crimes and the one who was innocent had to take the punishment by force. There is no justice in that. And that contradicts the OT as well. Oh and Jesus is not God. Please read my articles, Can you defend the Trinity and Problems of the Trinity, along with biblicalunitarian.com.

10. Like I mentioned, where is the love for Jesus? God said in the OT that everybody is repsonsible for their own sin, and he said he would answer the prayers of the righteous and deliver them from all their troubles and deliver them from the wicked. Yet Jesus did wasn't spared at all. Oh and I don't believe that the bible is God's word at all.

But, thank you for your post friend. I hope you the best in the future and may you seek the true path. Take care and have a good day!

P.S. I hope I don't have a harsh tone, I don't mean it that way. Nothing personal and no hard feelings

**moose7237** · February 13th 2007, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by anewlife

thanks!

I do wish you well my friend. I did respond to your Trinitarian post, unless you have anything new that will be my final post on that subject. Hope you take my posts in stride with a sense of humor (intertwined).

Good to see you are still on the forum. I am only a part-timer on this forum. So many forums, so little time kinda thing.

Hope your year is going well.

Hello and Peace to you Anewlife,

Man I am happy to see you back! Thanks for the responses, I'm sure many others are thankful as well. Ya I don't take it seriously man. Wow, you're involved in other forums? You're not thinking of leaving Tweb are ya?

Well my year is going pretty well I suppose, I hope you are doing well yourself. Thanks for the post man, I hope I'll see you again around here soon.

**xevolutionist** · February 15th 2007, 11:36 PM

Hello and Peace be to you also, I’ll respond to your objections again, although you aren’t really interested in the truth.

I really don't agree that Jesus had dual natures. Can you find me one verse where Jesus says he has dual natures? Or one verse where God in the OT says he will be a man and God, this being a prophecy of course. The dual natures came after the death of Jesus(the idea of it that is)

Some things are understood by reading the word and correctly interpreting it.

Genesis Ch. 3, vs. 15 speaks of the woman’s seed that would crush the serpents head. For centuries the Hebrew scholars pondered over that saying, for a woman has no seed. But they didn’t change the writing for they knew it was God’s word. Jesus was born of the woman without a man’s seed, being impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God.

Many prophecies speak of the suffering servant who would be the salvation of Israel. The book of Isaiah, especially chapter 53, speaks in great detail about Him. We know that He was born of a woman, we know that He had a physical body that could die, we know that He and God were one and the same in spirit, and we know that He, Jesus proclaimed Himself to be God.

No, Jesus is one with the father in love. Jesus admits that he can do nothing of his own, and he clearly states that it is up to the Father and not Jesus whether he is saved or not. Jesus did pray to be saved from death in Hebrews 5:7 too, so its not up to Jesus, if its up to Jesus he would not need to pray to be saved from death, since you claim he is God he would have saved himself. Is there any biblical support that Jesus' prayer in the Garden was his man side and not his God side? If there isn't one could easily assume its both.

You can assume anything you wish. That does not mean you are correct. That’s why it’s called an assumption.
Jesus asserted that He and the Father were one. That’s why He could do nothing without the Father. They were never apart until that moment on the cross.
As a man, He suffered the same temptations and sorrows that we all do, but He didn’t succumb to sin, asking for the Father’s will to be done. To have the sins of the world put on His head, and the temporary separation from that oneness with the rest of the Godhood which had existed forever would have been a terrible burden to bear for one who had never known sin.
If you don’t believe that the Bible is the true and accurate word of God, why do you ask for Biblical support?

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

TORAH - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).

PSALMS - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).

GOSPEL - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

We see that the Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu'ran since the Qu'ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered.

When Muhammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted.

Please, if you may, elaborate how "this could be an indication for believers that a very real price was paid for their absolution". No, salvation is not needed by original sin.

If the crucifixion had no effect on Jesus, how could that be called a sacrifice? As God, He truly did have the power to stop the process at any time, but without the payment of a penalty, the law is not satisfied. God would not be a just God if He ignored the violation of His laws and permitted sin to be unpunished. God’s great love for us let Him pay the penalty demanded by the law.
I have no idea why you state that salvation is not needed by original sin. It doesn’t really make sense grammatically. Salvation is needed by sinners, and God says that there is only one way to salvation, through Jesus and His atoning work of love.

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

Clearly, there was no sacrifice here, and since Jesus had the authority to forgive sin, by the Father's permission, then he could have forgiven all of mankind their sin by just believing in him. But the Father didn't answer Jesus' prayer to be saved, he wanted him crushed. Quite sad if you ask me.

Clearly, Jesus had the power to forgive sins, because He would be paying for them. Even though from our perspective, He hadn’t accomplished that yet, from God’s perspective, it was a done deal. Time was created by God, and He is it’s master.

Jesus should definitely have been saved from the cross. Read the verse I brought in Psalms 34, verse 17, it says if the righteous cry out God saves them from ALL their troubles. Surely, when Jesus had his face on the dirt in prostration, He is definitely in trouble and by that verse he should have been saved. Now if you read Hebrews 5:7, it says God heard Jesus' prayers, either God heard it and did nothing, or he heard it and saved Jesus. So Jesus was in trouble and God saved him from death. Now in the Garden, Jesus prays to be saved, but, nothing. Thus Psalms 34:17 is a false verse. Now on to where Jesus says he doesn't want to be saved from the cross:

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

TORAH - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).

PSALMS - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).

John 12:27
"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

I don't know if you have read the events from the other 3 gospels in the Garden, because all 3 of them show that Jesus did the exact opposite of John 12:27. Jesus said he doesn't want to be saved from the cross, yet he contradicts himself in the Garden by praying for God to make another way for him and not let him get crucified. Clearly this is a contradiction. I don't know how you can defend that. You can say that I am wrong. You can get all of Christianity to say I am wrong. I can get all of Judaism to say that Jesus did not exist. I can get all of Islam to say that i am right and you are wrong. This doesn't bother me at all.

The only contradiction is in your heart. The Gospels were all written by different people with different perspectives, and were written for different audiences. It would be an indication that something was wrong if they were all exactly the same.
If they were all exactly alike, you would say that there was just one Gospel, and that the others copied it. Have you ever talked to different witnesses of the same event and noticed that no two are exactly the same? It has been shown over and over that most people see things in a different way. What seems important to one person may not be as important to another.

The rising from the grave does not show his victory. If you read the verses I showed, it clearly talks about when the righteous are in trouble. For example: Moses was in trouble, God parted the sea. Jonah was in trouble, God saved him in the belly of the whale. David was in trouble, God delivered him from Saul. Jesus was in trouble, God did nothing but forsake him. Now I can say that David, Moses, and Jonah will all resurrect, it doesn't mean anything. When they are in trouble is when God saves them, God didn't help Jesus when he is in trouble. When Jesus was dead he wasn't in trouble, so him rising doesn't really apply here. Now is there any biblical evidence to the reason you brought as why God forsook Jesus? As far as I know, in the OT, every man is responsible for his own sin. Read Ezekiel 18 and Jeremiah 30.

Every example you gave was of men who God helped for a specific reason. You can say that they will all resurrect, but you don’t believe that, and you don’t know that. Why do you think that?

If they are resurrected, then it will be because of the redemption brought about by Jesus and their faith in God. If Jesus had not risen from the grave, there would be no resurrection for anyone.

I can say we all overcome death. We are all going to resurrect. Others resurrected before Jesus, did they overcome death too? Jesus did take refuge in God and he was still condemned. That verse is false as well then.

Jesus raised some from the dead for a time, to demonstrate His love and mercy, to show compassion on some grieving relatives, and to show His power. Those people all eventually died again, until the second coming of Christ, when all will be resurrected, some to salvation, and most to the judgment.

Umm...no price paid in Isaiah 43. God even says that they didn't bring any sacrifices and he still forgave them. How do you explain that? This clearly shows that God can forgive without atonement. So one must ask, if he can forgive without atonement, why did he still have Jesus on the cross and not save him?

I don’t know what version of the Bible you’re reading but mine says in verse 28 0f the 43rd chapter, “therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary, I will give Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.” Sounds like a price to me.

Justly? There is no moral justice in having an innocent man, who had his face on the dirt in prostration to not die on the cross, die for the sins he did not commit. Its like a father who has 4 kids. 3 of them commit crimes and the one who was innocent had to take the punishment by force. There is no justice in that. And that contradicts the OT as well. Oh and Jesus is not God. Please read my articles, Can you defend the Trinity and Problems of the Trinity, along with biblicalunitarian.com.

Have you never heard of someone taking the punishment that a loved one deserved? You need to do more living or at least more reading. It’s a well known plot concept. I accepted blame for a friend once, just because I knew he would have had a harder time enduring the punishment he would have received than I would.
As for the Trinity, that’s extrapolated from what God told us in the Bible. I’ve never visited biblicalunitarian.com, so I can’t comment on that site.

Like I mentioned, where is the love for Jesus? God said in the OT that everybody is repsonsible for their own sin, and he said he would answer the prayers of the righteous and deliver them from all their troubles and deliver them from the wicked. Yet Jesus did wasn't spared at all. Oh and I don't believe that the bible is God's word at all.

You’re starting to sound like a broken record, and just keep asking the same thing over and over, but you don’t really want the answer. Jesus is the author of love, and all those who know the truth love Him above all, for He loved us while we were in our worst sins and still endured agony for us. He is God’s most beloved Son, being obedient even unto death.
The Bible says that God is love (1 John 4:16) and that He loves all people (Matt. 5:43-48; John 3:16). The Qur'an never says that "God is love." In fact, the Qur'an says that Allah does not love unbelievers (2:98; 3:32).
Question: If Allah does not love unbelievers, can you say that Allah is love, especially if the Qur'an does not say it?
Question: If you say yes, that Allah is love, then why does he only love the Muslims and not all people?

But, thank you for your post friend. I hope you the best in the future and may you seek the true path. Take care and have a good day!

P.S. I hope I don't have a harsh tone, I don't mean it that way. Nothing personal and no hard feelings.

Why should I have hard feelings? Just because you called my God a liar, and said that His Holy word is not true? Because you don’t even agree with your own holy book? That you make some spurious claims about God not being just and attempting to convince others with faulty reasoning? I am saddened that you seem to have such disrespect for the one true God, but it’s Him you’ll eventually face for judgment, not me.
In the Bible, Jesus said in John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." In Christianity, the greatest act of love is performed by God Himself -- since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9). Jesus is the one who fulfilled His own words on this. He laid His life down for us.
Question:What is the greatest act of love performed by Allah?
Question:If what Jesus said is true, then hasn't someone besides Allah performed the greatest act of love?
Question:Why do you, as a Muslim, want me to give up such a great love performed by God Himself (from a Christian perspective) for your belief in Allah who only loves people if they are Muslims?

**moose7237** · February 18th 2007, 05:57 AM

Originally posted by xevolutionist

Hello and Peace be to you also, I’ll respond to your objections again, although you aren’t really interested in the truth.

Some things are understood by reading the word and correctly interpreting it.

Genesis Ch. 3, vs. 15 speaks of the woman’s seed that would crush the serpents head. For centuries the Hebrew scholars pondered over that saying, for a woman has no seed. But they didn’t change the writing for they knew it was God’s word. Jesus was born of the woman without a man’s seed, being impregnated by the Holy Spirit of God.

Many prophecies speak of the suffering servant who would be the salvation of Israel. The book of Isaiah, especially chapter 53, speaks in great detail about Him. We know that He was born of a woman, we know that He had a physical body that could die, we know that He and God were one and the same in spirit, and we know that He, Jesus proclaimed Himself to be God.

You can assume anything you wish. That does not mean you are correct. That’s why it’s called an assumption.
Jesus asserted that He and the Father were one. That’s why He could do nothing without the Father. They were never apart until that moment on the cross.
As a man, He suffered the same temptations and sorrows that we all do, but He didn’t succumb to sin, asking for the Father’s will to be done. To have the sins of the world put on His head, and the temporary separation from that oneness with the rest of the Godhood which had existed forever would have been a terrible burden to bear for one who had never known sin.
If you don’t believe that the Bible is the true and accurate word of God, why do you ask for Biblical support?

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

TORAH - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).

PSALMS - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).

GOSPEL - "It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong)," (3:3).
Also, "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah," (5:46).

We see that the Qu'ran states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qu'ran since the Qu'ran says that the Word of God cannot be altered.

When Muhammed (570 - 632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qu'ran from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qu'ran states that God's word cannot be corrupted.

If the crucifixion had no effect on Jesus, how could that be called a sacrifice? As God, He truly did have the power to stop the process at any time, but without the payment of a penalty, the law is not satisfied. God would not be a just God if He ignored the violation of His laws and permitted sin to be unpunished. God’s great love for us let Him pay the penalty demanded by the law.
I have no idea why you state that salvation is not needed by original sin. It doesn’t really make sense grammatically. Salvation is needed by sinners, and God says that there is only one way to salvation, through Jesus and His atoning work of love.

Clearly, Jesus had the power to forgive sins, because He would be paying for them. Even though from our perspective, He hadn’t accomplished that yet, from God’s perspective, it was a done deal. Time was created by God, and He is it’s master.

The Quran says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

TORAH - "We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers," (Sura 2:87).

PSALMS - "We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms," (4:163).

The only contradiction is in your heart. The Gospels were all written by different people with different perspectives, and were written for different audiences. It would be an indication that something was wrong if they were all exactly the same.
If they were all exactly alike, you would say that there was just one Gospel, and that the others copied it. Have you ever talked to different witnesses of the same event and noticed that no two are exactly the same? It has been shown over and over that most people see things in a different way. What seems important to one person may not be as important to another.

Every example you gave was of men who God helped for a specific reason. You can say that they will all resurrect, but you don’t believe that, and you don’t know that. Why do you think that?

If they are resurrected, then it will be because of the redemption brought about by Jesus and their faith in God. If Jesus had not risen from the grave, there would be no resurrection for anyone.

Jesus raised some from the dead for a time, to demonstrate His love and mercy, to show compassion on some grieving relatives, and to show His power. Those people all eventually died again, until the second coming of Christ, when all will be resurrected, some to salvation, and most to the judgment.

I don’t know what version of the Bible you’re reading but mine says in verse 28 0f the 43rd chapter, “therefore I will profane the princes of the sanctuary, I will give Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.” Sounds like a price to me.

Have you never heard of someone taking the punishment that a loved one deserved? You need to do more living or at least more reading. It’s a well known plot concept. I accepted blame for a friend once, just because I knew he would have had a harder time enduring the punishment he would have received than I would.
As for the Trinity, that’s extrapolated from what God told us in the Bible. I’ve never visited biblicalunitarian.com, so I can’t comment on that site.

You’re starting to sound like a broken record, and just keep asking the same thing over and over, but you don’t really want the answer. Jesus is the author of love, and all those who know the truth love Him above all, for He loved us while we were in our worst sins and still endured agony for us. He is God’s most beloved Son, being obedient even unto death.
The Bible says that God is love (1 John 4:16) and that He loves all people (Matt. 5:43-48; John 3:16). The Qur'an never says that "God is love." In fact, the Qur'an says that Allah does not love unbelievers (2:98; 3:32).
Question: If Allah does not love unbelievers, can you say that Allah is love, especially if the Qur'an does not say it?
Question: If you say yes, that Allah is love, then why does he only love the Muslims and not all people?

Why should I have hard feelings? Just because you called my God a liar, and said that His Holy word is not true? Because you don’t even agree with your own holy book? That you make some spurious claims about God not being just and attempting to convince others with faulty reasoning? I am saddened that you seem to have such disrespect for the one true God, but it’s Him you’ll eventually face for judgment, not me.
In the Bible, Jesus said in John 15:13, "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." In Christianity, the greatest act of love is performed by God Himself -- since Jesus is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14; Col. 2:9). Jesus is the one who fulfilled His own words on this. He laid His life down for us.
Question:What is the greatest act of love performed by Allah?
Question:If what Jesus said is true, then hasn't someone besides Allah performed the greatest act of love?
Question:Why do you, as a Muslim, want me to give up such a great love performed by God Himself (from a Christian perspective) for your belief in Allah who only loves people if they are Muslims?

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Firstly, thank you for wishing me peace I appreciate it. I'm sorry I'm taking a while to respond, I've been a bit busy as of late.

1. you didn't answer my request. Is there any verse where Jesus himself speaks on his dual nature? Next, the woman's seed doesn't show much in this arguement. Isaiah 53 is about Israel and not Jesus. The only mention of a servant in the whole book of Isaiah is Israel and not Jesus, so I don't know how you say that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus. Jesus proclaimed to be God, really? I never read him saying "I am God" did you?

2. Like I said, Jesus and the father were one in love and that's about it. If they were one then why did the father know the time of the hour and not Jesus? If they were one, then Jesus and the father would be equal, yet Jesus himself says that the father is greater then him, so they can't be one. Wait, if Jesus wanted the will of the father, why did he pray against the Father's will? He prayed that he wouldn't be crucified. Read Psalms 22, the very first verse:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

Jesus didn't want to be crucifed, and even when he was on the cross he wanted to be saved, this is going against the will of the father, so please don't say that he wanted to bear our sin, or he wanted the will of the father. This is wrong.
I ask for biblical support because its what I use to disprove you. Of course I don't believe that the bible is the true word of God, but I need to use it in debate.

Yes Moses was given the torah, but only Moses. With that being said, read the last chapter of Deuteronomy and tell me how Moses could have wrote that chapter? Moses was given the Torah according to the Quran, so Moses must have been alive when the Torah was complete, yet the last chapter of deuteronomy was written after the death of moses, so the 5 books you have which are known as the torah is not the same thing the Quran is talking about.
Yes the Psalms were given to David. So why are there other authors in the Psalms besides David in the bible? This shows that the psalms you have is different then the psalms David was actually given according to the Quran.
Yes the Gospel was given in the time of Jesus, yet Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, were all written after the death of Jesus, hence those 4 books cannot be the gospel the Quran is talking about.
The word of God cannot be altered in the sense that when he says something it will happen or it is true. Not that if something is written down on paper it can't be altered, that's not what the verse is saying in the Quran.

Did the Father ever say that Jesus will be a sacrifice? Or was this the words of the disciples and Paul? Umm...please read Isaiah 43 to see that God forgave Israel without any sacrifices. Where did God say that salvation is through the sacrifice of Jesus? I never read that verse before.

Ok, if sins were forgiven because Jesus would die for them, then there was no need for animal sacrifices. They were a waste. Why sacrifice poor animals, when really those sins could be forgiven when Jesus is crucified? Since you said that the sins were forgiven because it was a done deal with God and since Jesus forgave the man's sins because he will pay for them, why was there animal sacrifices, is Jesus would have ultimitely pay for them?

Why do you dodge my arguement friend? This is not a debate about Islam, Muhammad, or the Quran, it is about the crucifixion.

There is no contradiction in my heart. Please at least attempt to solve the contradiction. 3 of the 4 gospels recorded the same thing, are they wrong? And yes Jesus did want to be saved from the hour, read psalms 22 again, and read the events in the Garden of Getsemene.

No I do believe that those men will indeed resurrect again. If Jesus didn't resurrect then no one would resurrect? Really? Care to support that with the bible?

Please attempt to debate the verses I provide, example: Psalms 34:17 you haven't attempted to show how I am wrong with the verse I am providing.

Isaiah 43:
23 You have not brought me sheep for burnt offerings,
nor honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with grain offerings
nor wearied you with demands for incense.

24 You have not bought any fragrant calamus for me,
or lavished on me the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins
and wearied me with your offenses.

25 "I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

The NIV translation

Isaiah 44:
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you."

No mention of sacrifice here either.

The real question is that did Jesus want to take the punishment? NO!!! Read Psalms 22 and the Garden and Hebrews 5:7. All show Jesus begging for his life. Jesus did not want to be sacrificed. He was praying against it, and was hiding from the enemy in the Garden. Does that sound like someone who is willing to give their life for you? No. Please do visit biblicalunitarian.com or join the debate in "can you defend the trinity"

Whoa! God is love? God loves all people? I think you should read more of the bible before making such statements.

Psalms 5:5
5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

If I'm not mistaken Hate is the opposite of Love.

If Allah loved disbelievers then he wouldn't punish them in hell. If God is love like you and the bible say, why does hell exist?

now to answer your questions:
1. The greatest act of love from Allah, to me, is giving me the opportunity to earn paradise and blessing me everyday.
2. What Jesus said is not true, because in my opinion, giving up your life for God, whom we have never met and have to rely on only by faith is a greater act of love then to lay it down for your friends. God is the creator. Is it better to give up your life for the creator or the created?
3. Your love is a false one. Allah says that anyone, let me emphasize that ANYONE who does good and believes in one God and associates no partners with him(which the trinity does) can receive heaven, not only muslims. Jews and Christians(unitarians) also, can receive heaven.

**xevolutionist** · February 20th 2007, 03:18 PM

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

1. you didn't answer my request. Is there any verse where Jesus himself speaks on his dual nature? Next, the woman's seed doesn't show much in this arguement. Isaiah 53 is about Israel and not Jesus. The only mention of a servant in the whole book of Isaiah is Israel and not Jesus, so I don't know how you say that Isaiah 53 is about Jesus. Jesus proclaimed to be God, really? I never read him saying "I am God" did you?

But I did answer all your objections with a reasonable answer. You choose to reject them for no good reason. Your agenda was to prove the Bible was wrong and you won’t be satisfied until you think you have done that.
I never read God specifically instructing us on how to breathe, but you still know how to do it, don’t you?
There are many things in the Bible that are not written but are easily understood. That Jesus was born of a woman, ate food, bleed and died, speaks to His nature as a man. Jesus did say I AM [God] in John 8:58. The exact words God used when Moses asked what name he should tell the Egyptians.
Also said He was God in John 8:23. Also in Luke 22:70.

2

. Like I said, Jesus and the father were one in love and that's about it. If they were one then why did the father know the time of the hour and not Jesus? If they were one, then Jesus and the father would be equal, yet Jesus himself says that the father is greater then him, so they can't be one. Wait, if Jesus wanted the will of the father, why did he pray against the Father's will? He prayed that he wouldn't be crucified. Read Psalms 22, the very first verse:

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

Jesus didn't want to be crucifed, and even when he was on the cross he wanted to be saved, this is going against the will of the father, so please don't say that he wanted to bear our sin, or he wanted the will of the father. This is wrong.

Just because you say something is wrong doesn't mean everyone agrees with you. Maybe if you showed a logical or supported reason why you think it is wrong.

When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He voluntarily limited His use of his divine attributes.
If He had not done so, He could not have paid the price of our redemption.

You seem to think that God is like a man, even though He says many times that His ways are not our ways.
We can only speculate on the immense power and complexity of God’s being. To appear to us in three separate natures is not impossible for the one true God. It may be impossible for you to accept that God is so superior to man, but for me, it is easy to believe the words of the witnesses, faithfully and accurately recorded.

Jesus

did the

Messiah's work (opening heaven) 550 years before Islam's Prophet was born.

As God's messenger,

Jesus explained, simplified, and demonstrated God's will and message, although the Jews did not believe in him. Jesus' "Good

News" - the Gospel - is about God's love and forgiveness for allmankind.

Muhammad'srevelations, recorded in the Koran/Qur'an teach that:

Jesus was sent by Allah, who supported him with the Holy Spirit, to tell the world Allah's will (2, 87; 5. 110-117*).

Allah gave to the world Jesus, exalted him above all others, and supported him with the HolySpirit as proof of his sovereignty (2, 253*).

I ask for biblical support because its what I use to disprove you. Of course I don't believe that the bible is the true word of God, but I need to use it in debate.

Then you will do well to study it so that you may understand what it means, not what you want it to mean. But that may be impossible for one whose heart is hardened toward God.

Yes Moses was given the torah, but only Moses. With that being said, read the last chapter of Deuteronomy and tell me how Moses could have wrote that chapter? Moses was given the Torah according to the Quran, so Moses must have been alive when the Torah was complete, yet the last chapter of deuteronomy was written after the death of moses, so the 5 books you have which are known as the torah is not the same thing the Quran is talking about.

Of course Moses didn’t write that chapter, and the Bible doesn’t say he did. They are called the books of Moses because he wrote all but that. Have you ever heard of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. That is what you are doing here. There are no more faithfully and accurately recorded writings of history than the books that made up the Old Testament.

Did the Father ever say that Jesus will be a sacrifice? Or was this the words of the disciples and Paul? Umm...please read Isaiah 43 to see that God forgave Israel without any sacrifices. Where did God say that salvation is through the sacrifice of Jesus? I never read that verse before.

First, Jesus said it and He is God. Therefore, God said it.

Here you demonstrate how little you understand of the Bible. I don’t intend to demean your intelligence, as you seem to be very bright, but your ability to understand appears to be blocked by your preconceived beliefs, or you have not tried to truly study the whole Bible.

If you did, you would find that the first mention of Christ is in Genesis as I mentioned before, the seed of a woman who would bruise His heel when He crushed the power of sin. That indicates the price that would be paid, that sin grieves God. Then all through the old testament there are word pictures and prophecies that show the necessity of a sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin, and the Messiah who would save the world by His deeds. In Daniel, the Messiah’s coming and His death are predicted in chapter 9.

Ok, if sins were forgiven because Jesus would die for them, then there was no need for animal sacrifices. They were a waste. Why sacrifice poor animals, when really those sins could be forgiven when Jesus is crucified? Since you said that the sins were forgiven because it was a done deal with God and since Jesus forgave the man's sins because he will pay for them, why was there animal sacrifices, is Jesus would have ultimitely pay for them?

The animal sacrifices were a temporary measure, demonstrating that the price of sin was death, and pointing to Christ, the spotless lamb of God. Again, you have to understand the whole Bible. What saved the first born of the Jews when all the Egyptian first born died? The blood of an innocent lamb.

Why do you dodge my arguement friend? This is not a debate about Islam, Muhammad, or the Quran, it is about the crucifixion.

I was showing that even the Koran testifies to Jesus and the truth of the Bible.

There is no contradiction in my heart. Please at least attempt to solve the contradiction. 3 of the 4 gospels recorded the same thing, are they wrong? And yes Jesus did want to be saved from the hour, read psalms 22 again, and read the events in the Garden of Getsemene.
I already covered this in my last post. You want there to be a contradiction where there is none.

No I do believe that those men will indeed resurrect again. If Jesus didn't resurrect then no one would resurrect? Really? Care to support that with the bible?

Read first Corinthians, chapter 15, verses 13 through 19.

Please attempt to debate the verses I provide, example: Psalms 34:17 you haven't attempted to show how I am wrong with the verse I am providing.

Jesus came to save, not to be saved. He did not cry out for salvation, He cried out asking if there was another way to accomplish the will of the father. The King James version puts it like this; The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
The Lord did hear Him and did deliver Him, for He now sits at the right hand of God.

Isaiah 43:
23 You have not brought me sheep for burnt offerings,
nor honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with grain offerings
nor wearied you with demands for incense.

24 You have not bought any fragrant calamus for me,
or lavished on me the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins
and wearied me with your offenses.

25 "I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

The NIV translation

Isaiah 44:
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you."

No mention of sacrifice here either.

The real question is that did Jesus want to take the punishment? NO!!! Read Psalms 22 and the Garden and Hebrews 5:7. All show Jesus begging for his life. Jesus did not want to be sacrificed. He was praying against it, and was hiding from the enemy in the Garden. Does that sound like someone who is willing to give their life for you? No. Please do visit biblicalunitarian.com or join the debate in "can you defend the trinity"

Wrong on all counts. He was not hiding in the garden. Everyone knew they went there often. Even his apostle, Judas, who was leading the pack.
He did not beg for His life. Begging for life is what the mothers of bleeding Israeli children torn apart by the ball bearings of murdering bomb assassins do. That’s what the innocents in Iraq do just before they have their head sawed off by the dull blades of Al Queda. That’s what the men and women put alive feet first into wood chippers by Saddam Hussein’s sons used to do.

If you asked a judge if you could do community service instead of spending 6 months in jail would that be begging to you? If so, most of the world disagrees with you. Asking if there is an alternative to something is not begging.

Whoa! God is love? God loves all people? I think you should read more of the bible before making such statements.

Psalms 5:5
5The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

If I'm not mistaken Hate is the opposite of Love.

If Allah loved disbelievers then he wouldn't punish them in hell. If God is love like you and the bible say, why does hell exist?

Because He must be just. A holy God cannot bear for His people to sin. His love is why the sins of the people who trust in Jesus are paid for by His sacrifice.
Does a human father punish his children for doing wrong? Especially those things that could cause worse harm to become them? Does that mean the father does not love his children? Of course not? But say one of his 25 year old sons raped his 9 year old sister. Wouldn’t the father have to turn the boy over to the courts for judgment? Wouldn’t he hate that his son did such a vile thing? Can one hate and love at the same time?

now to answer your questions:
1. The greatest act of love from Allah, to me, is giving me the opportunity to earn paradise and blessing me everyday.
2. What Jesus said is not true, because in my opinion, giving up your life for God, whom we have never met and have to rely on only by faith is a greater act of love then to lay it down for your friends. God is the creator. Is it better to give up your life for the creator or the created?
3. Your love is a false one. Allah says that anyone, let me emphasize that ANYONE who does good and believes in one God and associates no partners with him(which the trinity does) can receive heaven, not only muslims. Jews and Christians(unitarians) also, can receive heaven.

Read your own holy writings which seem to disagree with your position.

Jesus was a messenger of Allah, who is to be believed (4, 171*).
Jesus would be righteous [sinless] all his life (3, 46; 6, 86; 19, 19*).

Jesus would be raised from the dead (19 33,34*).

Allah caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow [the prophets], gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him (57, 27*).
Allah strengthened the group of Jews who believed Jesus and his message, so they overcame those who disbelieved (61, 14*).

Long before the Prophet Muhammad, Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel for mankind's guidance (3: 3, 4, 48, 65*).

Allah taught Jesus the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. Allah would do miracles through Jesus and make him a messenger to Israel (3, 48, 49*).

Allah gathered Jesus and caused him to be resurrected and ascended to Allah himself (3, 55*).

Allah bestowed the Gospel on Jesus to be a light (5, 46*).

Observing the Torah and the Gospel brings nourishment from above (5, 66*).

*(All citations listed are from THE MEANING OF THE GLORIOUS KORAN, translated by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall: A mentor Religious Classic, The New American Library, New York, New York, fifth printing, 1956.)

[Click onhttp://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ for another translation of the Koran/Qur'an that confirms Pickthall's translation.]

**moose7237** · February 26th 2007, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by xevolutionist

But I did answer all your objections with a reasonable answer. You choose to reject them for no good reason. Your agenda was to prove the Bible was wrong and you won’t be satisfied until you think you have done that.
I never read God specifically instructing us on how to breathe, but you still know how to do it, don’t you?
There are many things in the Bible that are not written but are easily understood. That Jesus was born of a woman, ate food, bleed and died, speaks to His nature as a man. Jesus did say I AM [God] in John 8:58. The exact words God used when Moses asked what name he should tell the Egyptians.
Also said He was God in John 8:23. Also in Luke 22:70.

2

Just because you say something is wrong doesn't mean everyone agrees with you. Maybe if you showed a logical or supported reason why you think it is wrong.

When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He voluntarily limited His use of his divine attributes.
If He had not done so, He could not have paid the price of our redemption.

You seem to think that God is like a man, even though He says many times that His ways are not our ways.
We can only speculate on the immense power and complexity of God’s being. To appear to us in three separate natures is not impossible for the one true God. It may be impossible for you to accept that God is so superior to man, but for me, it is easy to believe the words of the witnesses, faithfully and accurately recorded.

Jesus

did the

Messiah's work (opening heaven) 550 years before Islam's Prophet was born.

As God's messenger,

Jesus explained, simplified, and demonstrated God's will and message, although the Jews did not believe in him. Jesus' "Good

News" - the Gospel - is about God's love and forgiveness for allmankind.

Muhammad'srevelations, recorded in the Koran/Qur'an teach that:

Jesus was sent by Allah, who supported him with the Holy Spirit, to tell the world Allah's will (2, 87; 5. 110-117*).

Allah gave to the world Jesus, exalted him above all others, and supported him with the HolySpirit as proof of his sovereignty (2, 253*).

Then you will do well to study it so that you may understand what it means, not what you want it to mean. But that may be impossible for one whose heart is hardened toward God.

Of course Moses didn’t write that chapter, and the Bible doesn’t say he did. They are called the books of Moses because he wrote all but that. Have you ever heard of straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. That is what you are doing here. There are no more faithfully and accurately recorded writings of history than the books that made up the Old Testament.

First, Jesus said it and He is God. Therefore, God said it.

Here you demonstrate how little you understand of the Bible. I don’t intend to demean your intelligence, as you seem to be very bright, but your ability to understand appears to be blocked by your preconceived beliefs, or you have not tried to truly study the whole Bible.

If you did, you would find that the first mention of Christ is in Genesis as I mentioned before, the seed of a woman who would bruise His heel when He crushed the power of sin. That indicates the price that would be paid, that sin grieves God. Then all through the old testament there are word pictures and prophecies that show the necessity of a sacrifice to pay the penalty of sin, and the Messiah who would save the world by His deeds. In Daniel, the Messiah’s coming and His death are predicted in chapter 9.

The animal sacrifices were a temporary measure, demonstrating that the price of sin was death, and pointing to Christ, the spotless lamb of God. Again, you have to understand the whole Bible. What saved the first born of the Jews when all the Egyptian first born died? The blood of an innocent lamb.

I was showing that even the Koran testifies to Jesus and the truth of the Bible.

Read first Corinthians, chapter 15, verses 13 through 19.

Jesus came to save, not to be saved. He did not cry out for salvation, He cried out asking if there was another way to accomplish the will of the father. The King James version puts it like this; The righteous cry, and the LORD heareth, and delivereth them out of all their troubles.
The Lord did hear Him and did deliver Him, for He now sits at the right hand of God.

Wrong on all counts. He was not hiding in the garden. Everyone knew they went there often. Even his apostle, Judas, who was leading the pack.
He did not beg for His life. Begging for life is what the mothers of bleeding Israeli children torn apart by the ball bearings of murdering bomb assassins do. That’s what the innocents in Iraq do just before they have their head sawed off by the dull blades of Al Queda. That’s what the men and women put alive feet first into wood chippers by Saddam Hussein’s sons used to do.

If you asked a judge if you could do community service instead of spending 6 months in jail would that be begging to you? If so, most of the world disagrees with you. Asking if there is an alternative to something is not begging.

Because He must be just. A holy God cannot bear for His people to sin. His love is why the sins of the people who trust in Jesus are paid for by His sacrifice.
Does a human father punish his children for doing wrong? Especially those things that could cause worse harm to become them? Does that mean the father does not love his children? Of course not? But say one of his 25 year old sons raped his 9 year old sister. Wouldn’t the father have to turn the boy over to the courts for judgment? Wouldn’t he hate that his son did such a vile thing? Can one hate and love at the same time?

Read your own holy writings which seem to disagree with your position.

Jesus was a messenger of Allah, who is to be believed (4, 171*).
Jesus would be righteous [sinless] all his life (3, 46; 6, 86; 19, 19*).

Jesus would be raised from the dead (19 33,34*).

Allah caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow [the prophets], gave him the Gospel, and placed compassion and mercy in the hearts of those who followed him (57, 27*).
Allah strengthened the group of Jews who believed Jesus and his message, so they overcame those who disbelieved (61, 14*).

Long before the Prophet Muhammad, Allah revealed the Torah and the Gospel for mankind's guidance (3: 3, 4, 48, 65*).

Allah taught Jesus the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. Allah would do miracles through Jesus and make him a messenger to Israel (3, 48, 49*).

Allah gathered Jesus and caused him to be resurrected and ascended to Allah himself (3, 55*).

Allah bestowed the Gospel on Jesus to be a light (5, 46*).

Observing the Torah and the Gospel brings nourishment from above (5, 66*).

*(All citations listed are from THE MEANING OF THE GLORIOUS KORAN, translated by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall: A mentor Religious Classic, The New American Library, New York, New York, fifth printing, 1956.)

[Click onhttp://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/ for another translation of the Koran/Qur'an that confirms Pickthall's translation.]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Sorry for the delay.

No, I don't see any of my objections answered at all. What you have been doing friend is not counteresponding the biblical verses I have provided and it seems like you are bringing Islam into this, which is not the appropriate place to do so. I would kindly ask that we stay on topic. My job here is to counter your rebuttals. I can say the same thing that you reject my claims for no good reason, it doesn't mean much of anything. And I am happy. Jesus being God is definitley not easily understood. Since the doctrine of trinity doesn't exist, it leaves many interpretations that one can make about Jesus' deity. Please do visit biblicalunitarian.com for their explanations on trinitarian verses. Was Jesus shy to admit that he was God in the NT? Time and time again God said " I am God your lord, or I am the God of Israel" I'm sure Jesus could have said it. As a matter of fact, even after Jesus was resurrected he admits that he has a God! But please jump into threads about the trinity and lets keep this one about the crucifixion.

Where does Jesus or God say that he limited his divine natures? I have never seen one verse where Jesus testifies to giving up some of his power. In fact, Jesus states that he relied on the Father for power and not himself.

How do these Quranic verses help you in anyway? They don't claim that Jesus is God nor do they claim that Jesus was crucified.

The unitarians and trinitarians interpret the bible to mean what they want it to mean don't they? I think they do. The unitarian shows that Jesus is only a man, the trinitarian shows that he is God. So its not only me.

If you want to use Quranic verses to support the bible, make sure you do it correctly. The Quran says that Moses was given the Torah in the form of a book. Since the last chapter of Deu. was not complete during the time of Moses, the book was not complete ergoes it contradicts the Quranic verse. So clearly the first 5 books of Moses are not the same as the Torah the Quran speaks of.

I say that Jesus said it and he is not God, ergo God never said that Jesus was going to be a sacrifice. Prove me wrong in that Jesus is God in the "problems of the trinity thread. or "can you defend the trinity". Like I mentioned, there was no sacrifice in Isaiah 43 yet Israel was forgiven. Also Jeremiah 31:30 or 30:31 and Ezekiel 18 reject the concept of Original sin. So not even God agrees that the innocent pays for the guilties' sin.

Now you said before that the reason God forgave Israel without any sacrifices is because Jesus is going to pay the penalty eventually. Lets read Leveticus 17:11
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life

God said that atonement comes through the blood, yet if there is no blood there is no forgiveness. So God couldn't have forgiven them until there is blood shed, and since Jesus came a long time after to die on the cross, it refutes you saying that he forgave them because of Jesus' death. God forgave them without sacrifice, even though there was no blood of an animal, so it had nothing to do with Jesus. And, God did reject original sin(human sacrifice) so its not Jesus' death that forgave them, but God's mercy and love. So with this conclusion, Jesus' sacrifice was pointless.

Yes the Quran testifies to Jesus, and later I will show you how it testifies to the crucfixion and the fate of trinitarians.

1 Cor. 15:13-19, says that if the dead didn't resurrect then Jesus wouldn't have resurrected either, not the other way around. Paul is saying that Jesus' resurrection depended on the dead's resurrection, so you still haven't answered my challenge that if Jesus didn't rise then no one would rise.

Whoa! God delivered Jesus out of his troubles? NOPE. The verse says ALL of his troubles. I can say that God saves any person out of his troubles by killing him. But the verse says he saves them of their troubles when they cry out. Did Jesus cry out and say "kill me so I am done with my troubles"? Nope. Jesus said "Help me" No, Jesus did not ask for another way, he asked "remove this cup from me" according to Luke. Also, Psalms 22:1 shows that Jesus, (since the chapter is prophesised about him) asking to be helped. Also Hebrews 5:7 shows Jesus crying out to be saved from death.

Did you read Hebrews 5:7? Jesus was CRYING WITH LOUD PETITIONS to the one who can save him from death. Also in the Garden of Getsetamene His face was to the ground asking God to remove the cup from him, and before the enemy had arrived, Jesus told his followers to get up so they can leave. This sounds like a desperate man not wanting to be crucified. Psalms 22:1 Jesus is asking for the Father to help him.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight, eternal damnation in hell fire is a sign of love from God. Riiiiiiiiiiight. Please don't say that God loves all people when scripture doesn't even agree with that.

I never said that Jesus wasn't a messenger, so how does the Quran disprove my position here?

I never said that Jesus wasn't sinless, so how does the Quran disprove my position?

You forgot a few things from the Quran about Jesus:

[004:157] That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

[004:158] Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

[004:159] And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

The fate of trinitarians:

[005:072] They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God,- God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

[005:073] They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Take care friend, and may you seek the truth that is Islam

**xevolutionist** · February 28th 2007, 02:35 PM

Okay moose, I'll try again, but you seem to be so caught up in showing that the Bible and therefore Christianity is wrong, that you can't see reason.

Sorry for the delay.

No, I don't see any of my objections answered at all. What you have been doing friend is not counteresponding the biblical verses I have provided and it seems like you are bringing Islam into this, which is not the appropriate place to do so. I would kindly ask that we stay on topic. My job here is to counter your rebuttals. I can say the same thing that you reject my claims for no good reason, it doesn't mean much of anything.

I have responded with the correct interpretation of those verses but you don’t agree with my perspective. As I said, since your purpose is to prove the Bible is not inspired by God and is fallible, you choose to interpret them your way. You may not be capable of understanding the Bible since you are actively working against God.

And I am happy. Jesus being God is definitley not easily understood. Since the doctrine of trinity doesn't exist, it leaves many interpretations that one can make about Jesus' deity.

Are you truly happy, with the peace and joy that comes from knowing that God has forgiven you of your sins?
The Doctrine of the Trinity [dictionary definition- doctrine : ideas taught as truth: a body of ideas, particularly in religion, taught to people as truthful or correct
Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.] as you can see is an idea, and it definitely does exist. This belief is that God in His awesome fullness, revealed Himself to us in three different ways, or personas [persons].

Please do visit biblicalunitarian.com for their explanations on trinitarian verses.

I just visited it and I see the standard Jehovah’s Witness arguments that depend on God being limited by human understanding, and misinterpreting the clear statements that Jesus made. I choose not to limit God, but believe that He is all powerful. I choose not to call God a liar, but believe all that He says.

Was Jesus shy to admit that he was God in the NT? Time and time again God said " I am God your lord, or I am the God of Israel" I'm sure Jesus could have said it. As a matter of fact, even after Jesus was resurrected he admits that he has a God! But please jump into threads about the trinity and lets keep this one about the crucifixion.

It was not Jesus’ purpose to glorify Himself, but to do the work that only He could do. He knew that the Israelites were wanting a messiah that would lead them in battle against the Romans. God’s battle is against sin.

But please jump into threads about the trinity and lets keep this one about the crucifixion.

They are intertwined subjects. Only the God/man could be tempted and not sin. Only a sinless sacrifice was acceptable to God.

Where does Jesus or God say that he limited his divine natures? I have never seen one verse where Jesus testifies to giving up some of his power. In fact, Jesus states that he relied on the Father for power and not himself.

Did I say that Jesus stated that? No, I did not. He did imply that when He said that only the Father knows the hour of judgment, but I already explained why this is easily understood.

How do these Quranic verses help you in anyway? They don't claim that Jesus is God nor do they claim that Jesus was crucified.

I thought you might accept the teachings of your own holy writings, but you correctly showed the contradictory nature of the statements of it’s human authors.

The unitarians and trinitarians interpret the bible to mean what they want it to mean don't they? I think they do. The unitarian shows that Jesus is only a man, the trinitarian shows that he is God. So its not only me.

Showing that you are not the only person who is wrong about this helps your argument?

I say that Jesus said it and he is not God, ergo God never said that Jesus was going to be a sacrifice. Prove me wrong in that Jesus is God in the "problems of the trinity thread. or "can you defend the trinity". Like I mentioned, there was no sacrifice in Isaiah 43 yet Israel was forgiven.

I already showed how you are wrong in this conclusion about Isaiah 43. I don’t have time to participate in every thread on this forum.

Also Jeremiah 31:30 or 30:31 and Ezekiel 18 reject the concept of Original sin. So not even God agrees that the innocent pays for the guilties' sin.

These passages do not reject the concept of original sin, they state that each person is responsible for their own sins and that God will not punish you for your father’s sins. Original sin is known in two senses: the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendents. It is called "original" in that Adam, the first man, is the one who sinned and thus caused sin to enter the world. Even though Eve is the one who sinned first, because Adam is the Federal Head (representative of mankind), his fall included or represented all of humanity. Therefore, some hold that original sin includes the falling of all humanity. Some see original sin as Adam's fallen nature is passed to his descendents. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

Since Jesus had not a literal, biological father, the sin nature was not passed down to Him. However, since He had a human mother, he was fully human but without original sin. Jesus has two natures: God and man. Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him dwells all the fullness of deity in bodily form." Jesus received His human nature from Mary, but He received His divine nature through God the Holy Spirit. Therefore, Jesus is both God and man. He was sinless, had no original sin, and was both fully God and fully man.

Now you said before that the reason God forgave Israel without any sacrifices is because Jesus is going to pay the penalty eventually. Lets read Leveticus 17:11
11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life

Let us read the whole chapter where it clearly explains that the sacrifice was made for the people by the priest. If the sacrifice of animals had been sufficient to cleanse of all sins, it wouldn’t have had to be repeated regularly.
You can’t understand the whole Bible by reading one verse.

God said that atonement comes through the blood, yet if there is no blood there is no forgiveness. So God couldn't have forgiven them until there is blood shed, and since Jesus came a long time after to die on the cross, it refutes you saying that he forgave them because of Jesus' death. God forgave them without sacrifice, even though there was no blood of an animal, so it had nothing to do with Jesus. And, God did reject original sin(human sacrifice) so its not Jesus' death that forgave them, but God's mercy and love. So with this conclusion, Jesus' sacrifice was pointless.

And a tortuous conclusion it is, without logic or understanding. Original sin/human sacrifice? Where did that come from?

Yes the Quran testifies to Jesus, and later I will show you how it testifies to the crucfixion and the fate of trinitarians.

1 Cor. 15:13-19, says that if the dead didn't resurrect then Jesus wouldn't have resurrected either, not the other way around. Paul is saying that Jesus' resurrection depended on the dead's resurrection, so you still haven't answered my challenge that if Jesus didn't rise then no one would rise.

Paul’s reasoning was like this; 1. Some of you say that there is no resurrection. [some people believed at the time there was no physical resurrection of the body, just the soul.] 2. If a body can’t be resurrected, [as is incorrectly believed by some] then Jesus wasn’t resurrected. 3. If Christ was not raised from the dead, then all our preaching is false and you are condemned to the grave.

Also Hebrews 5:7 shows Jesus crying out to be saved from death.

Did you read Hebrews 5:7? Jesus was CRYING WITH LOUD PETITIONS to the one who can save him from death. Also in the Garden of Getsetamene His face was to the ground asking God to remove the cup from him, and before the enemy had arrived, Jesus told his followers to get up so they can leave. This sounds like a desperate man not wanting to be crucified. Psalms 22:1 Jesus is asking for the Father to help him.

Read Hebrews 5:7 again. It says, “ In the days when He was in the flesh, [this testifies to His dual nature] He offered prayers and supplications with loud cries and tears to god, who was able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence.”
It doesn’t say that God ignored Him. Since you can’t understand scripture, or maybe because you only see what you want to see, you used a verse that supports my position much more than it does yours.

I never said that Jesus wasn't a messenger, so how does the Quran disprove my position here?

If He is a messenger from God He should be believed.

**anewlife** · July 8th 2007, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by moose7237

Hello and Peace to you Anewlife,

Man I am happy to see you back! Thanks for the responses, I'm sure many others are thankful as well. Ya I don't take it seriously man. Wow, you're involved in other forums? You're not thinking of leaving Tweb are ya?

Well my year is going pretty well I suppose, I hope you are doing well yourself. Thanks for the post man, I hope I'll see you again around here soon.

I have been on other forums for a number of years. I am still here on Tweb but not often.

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