God's Injustice towards Jesus: crucifixion

[moose7237]

Of course we are under a new covenant, and new rules apply. The two main ones are 1. Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, and soul and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself. Of course when my neighbor begins to

what better way to love God than show him that you are trying to keep all of his commandments. Loving God is not just believing Jesus died for you. If you really love God you would keep all of his commandments. And don't tell me you can't. We all make mistakes, if you make a mistake repent and continue. I still know Jews that do that, so don't make any excuses

that makes things a little difficult. But yes, I do want to follow the law.

Nike: Just do it

Ugh! Please stop! The very first word of the passage you're talking about is "suppose". Suppose there is a righteouss man who follows every statute of the law to the letter. Then yes, certainly, righteousness would be accorded to him. But as it says elsewhere

God said suppose, just to show an example. If God is all knowing and he knows that no one is righteous through the law, why would he say that? What is he trying to deceive the Jews in trying to achieve an impossible task? I don't think so. No where did God say it is impossible to be righteous from following the law.

No. We do not gain righteousness from deeds of the law, because we have all sinned atleast once. That one sin is enough to condemn us. A punishment is still in order, but God is merciful because He loves us, so He set up another way for us to continue living. That way was sacrifice. Since we can't live up to the law, God promised that He would raise up one who would, and then He would accord that man's rightouesness to us, if we would just believe God, and submit to His will (as a result of that belief, did you read that article yet? Here it is again http://www.tektonics.org/af/baptismneed.html).

God said it is possible in Ezekiel 18. You have been taught that you make one sin and ooops there you go, it is impossible for me to be righteous. But what you don't know is that if you REPENT God will forgive you. Forgive and Forget, that is what God is all about. No need for a sacrifice.

What law? Abraham didn't have the law yet, that was given to Moses.

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

God said that ALL nations are blessed because Abraham kept his laws. So I think Keeping God's laws, and Abraham wasn't perfect, does some good. So my guess Paul was wrong again when he said no one is righteous.

No. Jesus is saying He has come to fulfill the requirements of the law. It shows His complete submission to the Father's will. That way His righteousness (by deeds of the law) can be accredited to us, we who can not gain righteousness by deeds of the law.

Matthew 5:17-19
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Not everything is accomplished, because the prophecy of Judgement Day has not yet to come, so where is this balogna that the Law is fulfilled or that you are not under the law anymore? Jesus himself taught the law, FOLLOW IT!

Suppose. Read that first word again. Suppose. Now find me a man, other than Christ, who has become righteous by following every letter of the law to the last drop. Suppose. Then we can begin to talk sense. Suppose.

Like I said if it weren't possible, why would God even say it? Why is he telling the jews of something impossible to do? God never said you cannot become righteous from the law. At least not that I have seen. God is just giving an example to the Jews, but if it were impossible, since he is all knowing, he wouldn't say it.

Do you have a passage of scripture that I can work with?

you want a passage where God said he is merciful to those who keep the law? sure thing bud.

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to those who remember His commandments to do them. Psalm 103 17-18

As I recall, a sacrifice was needed to forever cleanse us of our sins. I don't recall God ever promising Jesus wouldn't suffer. And if God had truly forsaken Christ, then Christ would not have been risen from the dead three days later. This may help some, though judging by JP's comments, maybe not?

read my original article. He forsook him when he was whipped, got thorns on his head, and on the cross. Somehting he said he would never do.

[moose7237]

who said that he was asking to be saved from dying? he was being saved from eternal death and forsaking by the Father. That he was saved is obvious, he was resurrected.

where in the NT, did Jesus pray to be saved from eternal death. You have no evidence or support that Jesus is praying to be saved from eternal death. The only death he prayed to be saved from was the one from the cross.

psalms 22:
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Clearly he wanted to be saved from the events of the crucifixion.

Yes he was. He was resurrected and reunited with the FATHER, when we are SAVED it doesn't mean we don't die. We still die but then we will be resurrected and live for eternity with the Father.

He wasn't saved from dying on the cross was he? NOPE. God said he would not let the enemy kill his righteous ones, but he let Jesus die. Please address that point. I'm not saying that he won't be saved from death, but in the time of trouble and the way that Jesus died, he could have been saved and spared. But he wasn't.

Gee did you miss it AGAIN???

Yet not as I will, but as you will.

He submits his will to the Father. If there is no other way then he is willing to die. Guess what? there was no other way.

So let me get this straight, Jesus knew the will of the father was for him to die right? Than why did he make that prayer in the first place? There is no reason for him to make that prayer in Matthew 26:39, but he did, Why did he pray if he wanted the will of the father? Read my original article.

Because he was not only divine, he was human. If there was any other way to do it he would have liked it to be so, but since there was no other way, he was WILLING to die. Are you that thick skulled?

I did say don't use that silly arguement in my original article that his human side wanted to live but his God side didn't. That is silly. "if there was any other way....but since there was no other way" See now you are doing 2 things wrong here:

1. you are saying the only way for God to forgive sins is through Jesus' death. Totally wrong, that even shows that God is not omnipotent

2. There was another way Read Isaiah 43:23-25. I have read 4 commentaries about those verses and they all said God loved Israel so much that he forgot their sins and transgressions WITHOUT ANY SACRIFICES.

PS - in another post you were trying to say that a righteous person could get to heaven so Jesus' sacrifice was not needed.

Well, you sort of got that right. IF someone was righteous they could 'earn' salvation and would not need Jesus.

The problem is, that the standard of that righteousness is PERFECTION. Know anyone except Jesus who fits that description? Anyone who has never sinned? Never told a lie, never did anything selfish? Never broken even ONE of the 10 commandments?

I didn't think you did. That is why we need Jesus. Because NONE of us are righteous. Not one.

Who ever said it was perfection? God said he is merciful to those who keep his law. (read my previous post to Old Man Zangetsu) If everyone is perfect we don't need God's mercy, but God knows that we are not perfect, he is merciful to those who keep his commandments.

Oh regarding Romans 3:10-18, those verses are the most outrageous verses there are. Paul just picked out verses completely out of context from the OT and put them in a paragraph. If I did that, I would get a living nightmare of how stupid I am for taking things out of context. Go ahead read all those verses that he takes out from the OT, read them in complete context and you decide.

I suggest reading this article, it explains it in good detail
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/law_stands.htm

But if we belong to Jesus we get his righteousness credited to us. And all of those Old Testament saints, like David, who were forgiven because they asked for it? They were only forgiven BECAUSE of what Jesus did on the cross. Their faith was in the messiah (Jesus). The sacrifices? They were symbols of what Christ would do too. They didn't forgive sins. They were representations of what Jesus would do. Read the book of Hebrews.

Ok can you show me anywhere in the OT that God said he would only forgive people because Jesus was going to die on the cross? Please I would like to see that verse or verses.

[moose7237]

I'm sorry Mr. Holding that I mispelled your name.

Read my original article and refute each point one by one. Lets see if you can meet that challenge.

Psa 22 ended victoriously?
Well you can say that it did, but that would mean Jesus was saved from dying, which he wasn't. Since Jesus didn't say "it is finished" how do you know, based on Psalms 22, when Jesus died?
since he never said "it is finished" in Psalms 22, than he must not have died on the cross, which is wrong. So please care to explain.

[jpholding]

I'm sorry Mr. Holding that I mispelled your name.

Wish you'd apologize for poor scholarship instead!

Read my original article and refute each point one by one. Lets see if you can meet that challenge.

What, AGAIN? You have my answers. I'm waiting for you to reply with substance.

Psa 22 ended victoriously?
Well you can say that it did, but that would mean Jesus was saved from dying, which he wasn't.

Oh. A resurrection is not being saved from death. My bad.

Since Jesus didn't say "it is finished" how do you know, based on Psalms 22, when Jesus died?

That's so incoherent a question there's no telling what the point was. Jesus DID say "it is finished" and as I told you before, but which you couldn't get through your moose skull, there is NOTHING that requires "it is finished" to be in Ps. 22. As if the only way Jesus could enact Ps. 22 was if he did nothing that was not in the Psalm. Yep! Even if he coughed or sneezed or twitched his finger or went "ow that hurts" or whatever on the cross. Whoops! There's no sneeze is Ps. 22, Jesus; you lose that one!

Yep, you sure have been worth some laughs here -- didn't I tell you the people here would find you a barrel of yuks?

Even more so:

I suggest reading this article, it explains it in good detail
http://www.justgivemethetruth.com/law_stands.htm

Pfft! You seen some of the crap on this site? Check the graphics on the front page. THIS is the kind of source you take as authoritative????

[moose7237]

Wish you'd apologize for poor scholarship instead!

you insulting just shows the lack of knowledge you have to refute me

What, AGAIN? You have my answers. I'm waiting for you to reply with substance.

well why don't you really humilitae me again then? show everybody your great irrefutable answers?

Oh. A resurrection is not being saved from death. My bad.

As smart as you are Mr. Holding you would know that EVERYBODY gets resurrected, so Jesus was not special, and there will be people that will be raised to the father as well. I'm talking about a death on earth. He was not saved from this death. Please Refuet that Oh mighty Scholar!

That's so incoherent a question there's no telling what the point was. Jesus DID say "it is finished" and as I told you before, but which you couldn't get through your moose skull, there is NOTHING that requires "it is finished" to be in Ps. 22. As if the only way Jesus could enact Ps. 22 was if he did nothing that was not in the Psalm. Yep! Even if he coughed or sneezed or twitched his finger or went "ow that hurts" or whatever on the cross. Whoops! There's no sneeze is Ps. 22, Jesus; you lose that one!

Yep, you sure have been worth some laughs here -- didn't I tell you the people here would find you a barrel of yuks?

My point was, how was Jesus victorious in Psalm 22, it never showed that he died, which is why I asked where did Jesus say "it is finished"? That would mean he said his last words and he died. Jesus wasn't saved from the enemy when he was on the cross and since he never said his last words, how do you know that he was victorious, the only was he would be victorious was if he was saved from a PHYSICAL death. Which he was not, and since he didn't say his last words, his sould wasn't risen from his body at that point, so you don't know how he was victorious.

You making fun of me, just shows your immaturity. Grow up Man!

Pfft! You seen some of the crap on this site? Check the graphics on the front page. THIS is the kind of source you take as authoritative????

I didn't say judge how beautiful the site LOOKS, give the article a chance and stop being ignorant. No one here has yet to give me any valid answers on my points. Lets see if you are going to publicly humiliate me like you said you were.

[Sparko]

where in the NT, did Jesus pray to be saved from eternal death. You have no evidence or support that Jesus is praying to be saved from eternal death. The only death he prayed to be saved from was the one from the cross.

psalms 22:
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.

21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [d] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

Clearly he wanted to be saved from the events of the crucifixion.

Oh clearly! After all he was overpowered by dogs, eaten by Lions and gored by wild oxen.



Psalm 22 is a POEM. It was written by DAVID. It represents part of what Jesus was going through but it is not a literal script of the crucifixion. It is figurative and POETIC.

If I tell you that your idiotic logic is driving me crazy are you going to tell me that you don't see me in your car?

He wasn't saved from dying on the cross was he? NOPE. God said he would not let the enemy kill his righteous ones, but he let Jesus die. Please address that point. I'm not saying that he won't be saved from death, but in the time of trouble and the way that Jesus died, he could have been saved and spared. But he wasn't.

The whole point of the New Testament is that Jesus paid for our sins by dying in our place. We are SAVED from eternal damnation, eternal death. Satan did not KILL Jesus. He defeated DEATH by resurrecting.

1. you are saying the only way for God to forgive sins is through Jesus' death. Totally wrong, that even shows that God is not omnipotent

No, that shows God is JUST. He gives everyone the same chance to be saved from our sins. Just accept his sacrifice. If he arbitrarily forgave sins then he would not be fair. Everyone would complain, why did you forgive so and so and not me? God punishes sin. He is JUST and FAIR. If you don't want to accept his sacrifice in your place, then you must pay yourself. Your sin will either be paid by YOU or Jesus.

Who ever said it was perfection?

God said he is merciful to those who keep his law. (read my previous post to Old Man Zangetsu) If everyone is perfect we don't need God's mercy, but God knows that we are not perfect, he is merciful to those who keep his commandments.

But NOBODY ever HAS kept all his commandments. Nobody but Jesus. Have you ever told a lie? Then you have not kept his commandments. You have sinned and are going to hell. Even if you never tell another lie EVER again, you already DID. You will be judged on the sins you have committed, and you can never take them back. And I am willing to bet that you will NOT be able to keep his commandments from this point forward either. No matter how many times you commit to doing so, you will fail. The law only points out how sinful we are.

Oh regarding Romans 3:10-18, those verses are the most outrageous verses there are. Paul just picked out verses completely out of context from the OT and put them in a paragraph.

Really? Seems pretty much in context to me.

If I did that, I would get a living nightmare of how stupid I am for taking things out of context.

:irony:

here is a clue: YOU ARE that stupid.

Ok can you show me anywhere in the OT that God said he would only forgive people because Jesus was going to die on the cross? Please I would like to see that verse or verses.

Isaiah 53.

[OldManZangetsu]

what better way to love God than show him that you are trying to keep all of his commandments. Loving God is not just believing Jesus died for you. If you really love God you would keep all of his commandments. And don't tell me you can't. We all make mistakes, if you make a mistake repent and continue. I still know Jews that do that, so don't make any excuses

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children, to such as keep His covenant, and to those who remember His commandments to do them. Psalm 103 17-18

Ok, but we're still left with this paradox. We can not come into the presence of God unless we are completely holy, or righteous. When we sin, we miss the mark and become unholy. Of course we want to follow the law... so then why do we sin? We want to follow it, but our imperfect nature prevents us from fulfilling the law to the last letter. We desire to be with God and serve Him completely... but because of even just one sin, our punishment is death, eternal death that is. (By the way, THIS IS WHY Ps 22 IS VICTORIOUS. Jesus conquered death, ETERNAL death. Stop reading things with your 21st century literalism).

God said suppose, just to show an example. If God is all knowing and he knows that no one is righteous through the law, why would he say that? What is he trying to deceive the Jews in trying to achieve an impossible task? I don't think so. No where did God say it is impossible to be righteous from following the law.

You're right, Moose, because it was IMPLIED. Yes, there is a second way to earn righteousness, by following every letter of the law. Now, show me who in human history besides Jesus Christ accomplished that. Otherwise, we need His accreditation.

God said it is possible in Ezekiel 18. You have been taught that you make one sin and ooops there you go, it is impossible for me to be righteous. But what you don't know is that if you REPENT God will forgive you. Forgive and Forget, that is what God is all about. No need for a sacrifice.

No... that passage is implying that this righteous somebody never breaks a single law.

"Sojourn in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My Laws." Genesis 26:3-5

God said that ALL nations are blessed because Abraham kept his laws. So I think Keeping God's laws, and Abraham wasn't perfect, does some good. So my guess Paul was wrong again when he said no one is righteous.

Righteous according to deeds of the law, which he had been talking about in the previous chapters of Romans. Do you not understand that when a law is broken, a punishment is still in order? God said that whoever breaks his laws will be punished, He can't go back on that. Mecy implies that God will find another way for the punishment to take place, ergo, sacrifice.

Matthew 5:17-19
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Not everything is accomplished, because the prophecy of Judgement Day has not yet to come, so where is this balogna that the Law is fulfilled or that you are not under the law anymore? Jesus himself taught the law, FOLLOW IT!

Erg... more 21st century literalism. I won't even bother.

Like I said if it weren't possible, why would God even say it? Why is he telling the jews of something impossible to do? God never said you cannot become righteous from the law. At least not that I have seen. God is just giving an example to the Jews, but if it were impossible, since he is all knowing, he wouldn't say it.

Moose knows best. Especially when it comes to rhetoric.

[OldManZangetsu]

you insulting just shows the lack of knowledge you have to refute me

well why don't you really humilitae me again then? show everybody your great irrefutable answers?

(Originally to JP)

He already answered you once... why should he need to do it again? On top of that, others in this thread have already given you ample refutations, take some time to let the stuff sink in. Honestly... stick to manning the teams water supply, it's what's best for you.

[jpholding]

you insulting just shows the lack of knowledge you have to refute me

It shows that you are STUPID. Get it? Incompetent and unaware of it.

well why don't you really humilitae me again then? show everybody your great irrefutable answers?

Look around you -- you're the object of laughter all around. NO ONE here recognizes your sterling genius.

As smart as you are Mr. Holding you would know that EVERYBODY gets resurrected, so Jesus was not special, and there will be people that will be raised to the father as well.

SO WHAT? I have no issue with everyone getting rescued from death, you dwip!

I'm talking about a death on earth. He was not saved from this death.

Yeah, sure, like, YOU get to decide how it gets done and when. What a maroon!

My point was, how was Jesus victorious in Psalm 22, it never showed that he died, which is why I asked where did Jesus say "it is finished"?

And that point was destroyed. Ah-choo! Ooops! He's disqualified!

I didn't say judge how beautiful the site LOOKS, give the article a chance and stop being ignorant. No one here has yet to give me any valid answers on my points. Lets see if you are going to publicly humiliate me like you said you were.

You're doin' a fine job on your own, son! BEAUTY!!! Do you SEE what that banner promotes??? YOU think a site that promotes THAT is a reliable source???

I'll be back tomorrow, Narcissist.

[moose7237]

Oh clearly! After all he was overpowered by dogs, eaten by Lions and gored by wild oxen.



Psalm 22 is a POEM. It was written by DAVID. It represents part of what Jesus was going through but it is not a literal script of the crucifixion. It is figurative and POETIC.

Let me get this straight, so you are just picking and choosing what Jesus said from that Psalm right?

Lets see: jesus said "my God Why have you forsaking me"
Jesus said "they pierced my hands and feet"

But you can throw the rest out, Jesus never said anything else. YA RIGHT!

Do me a favor, read my original post and refute it one by one.

And as far as the lion and the oxen, that is figurative for the enemy. Even you can see that. Buddy stop making fun of me, and start giving good arguements. I see now are all christians like you, they make fun of someone who doesn't agree with your theology? Man you were taught right!

The whole point of the New Testament is that Jesus paid for our sins by dying in our place. We are SAVED from eternal damnation, eternal death. Satan did not KILL Jesus. He defeated DEATH by resurrecting.

No his sacrifice was unecessary. I wrote this article in Jesus' perspective not mankind. I stated that in the original post, why don't you read it again!

No, that shows God is JUST. He gives everyone the same chance to be saved from our sins. Just accept his sacrifice. If he arbitrarily forgave sins then he would not be fair. Everyone would complain, why did you forgive so and so and not me? God punishes sin. He is JUST and FAIR. If you don't want to accept his sacrifice in your place, then you must pay yourself. Your sin will either be paid by YOU or Jesus.

No it does not! Making Jesus take everybody's sin is no where near just. Lying to Jesus is not Just. Saying that each person is judged on their own deeds and having Jesus pay for them later on is lying and not just. God is not fair. What's so fair about Jesus paying the price for all of man's sin, he was perfect and he should stay that way. He earned his perfection. Read Ezekiel 18, where God said the father shall not pay the price for the son's sin.

But NOBODY ever HAS kept all his commandments. Nobody but Jesus. Have you ever told a lie? Then you have not kept his commandments. You have sinned and are going to hell. Even if you never tell another lie EVER again, you already DID. You will be judged on the sins you have committed, and you can never take them back. And I am willing to bet that you will NOT be able to keep his commandments from this point forward either. No matter how many times you commit to doing so, you will fail. The law only points out how sinful we are.

so what does God's mercy mean? I already addressed this in a previous post. Clearly, God wants everybody to keep his commandments for a reason, no matter if you break them or not. David committed Adultery, God still loved him, if he didn't keep the law, God would not have loved him. That's why Jesus didn't like the pharisees, cause they didn't keep the law.

Really? Seems pretty much in context to me.

And I'm the stupid one.

Do me a favor read all of those corresponding verses that apply to the OT and post how they are in context to what Paul is saying in Romans 3:10-18

Isaiah 53.

If you would see, that prophecy is not even about Jesus. It is about Israel.
And no, God never said that he forgives sins because of Jesus in that chapter

[moose7237]

Ok, but we're still left with this paradox. We can not come into the presence of God unless we are completely holy, or righteous. When we sin, we miss the mark and become unholy. Of course we want to follow the law... so then why do we sin? We want to follow it, but our imperfect nature prevents us from fulfilling the law to the last letter. We desire to be with God and serve Him completely... but because of even just one sin, our punishment is death, eternal death that is. (By the way, THIS IS WHY Ps 22 IS VICTORIOUS. Jesus conquered death, ETERNAL death. Stop reading things with your 21st century literalism).

You repent and he foriges you, he doesn't remember your sins. And don't tell me if I broke your window and you forgave me, Did I still break your window? God is not like humans, he is muuuuuuuuuuch more merciful and when he says you are forgiven its like it never happened in his book. I addressed that arguement before. So yes you can become holy through the mercy of God which he said in the verses I provided. Ok Jesus conquered death, but nowhere can you say that Jesus died in Psalms 22, because there is absolutely no indication of him dying a PHYSICAL death in that Psalms. That's why I am stressing "it is finished" because once those words are uttered than you know he died.

You're right, Moose, because it was IMPLIED. Yes, there is a second way to earn righteousness, by following every letter of the law. Now, show me who in human history besides Jesus Christ accomplished that. Otherwise, we need His accreditation.

Abraham was righteous, he sinned, he followed the law. Like I said earlier, if it is impossible for anyone to become righteous through the law, why would God say a man can become righteous by following his commandments? It makes no sense. Where did God say in the OT, it is impossible for you to become righteous from the law? WHERE DID HE SAY THAT

No... that passage is implying that this righteous somebody never breaks a single law.

and where is your evidence on that? You are brainwashed by what Paul says. God never said any of this stuff. God commanded you to fear him and obey his commandments. (ecc. 12:13)

Righteous according to deeds of the law, which he had been talking about in the previous chapters of Romans. Do you not understand that when a law is broken, a punishment is still in order? God said that whoever breaks his laws will be punished, He can't go back on that. Mecy implies that God will find another way for the punishment to take place, ergo, sacrifice.

Plenty of laws were broken in Isaiah 43:23-25, no punishment there. David commits adultery with Batshiba, no punishment for him.

He already answered you once... why should he need to do it again? On top of that, others in this thread have already given you ample refutations, take some time to let the stuff sink in. Honestly... stick to manning the teams water supply, it's what's best for you.

his meaning of humiliating me, is making fun of me, which is cheap.

And no one has yet to humiliate me on:
1. Why God forgave Israel in Isaiah 43:23-25
2. Why God said he would never let the enemy hurt the righteous, but he let them hurt and kill Jesus
3. The purpose of Jesus praying for the cup to be taken from him, when he wanted the will of the father which was to have him killed.

[moose7237]

Hello all,
I hope you guys are doing ok. I will be leaving for a few hours. To the peopel that want to respond, do me a favor, and pick my arguement apart, by responding to the questions in my first article. And please be respectful and do not make fun of me or anyone else. Please keep on topic as well, I have had posts that swerve to salvation. This is about JESUS and not any other topic. The crucifixion mainly, not what the crucifixion means. Please be kind and stay on topic.

Have a good day everybody

[Sparko]

Let me get this straight, so you are just picking and choosing what Jesus said from that Psalm right?

Uh no. I am saying that the Psalm is first the mournful cry and poem of David and that it is a poem that represents prophesy about Jesus. It is NOT a script. If you want to know exactly what was going on during the crucifixion, read the the gospels.

Lets see: jesus said "my God Why have you forsaking me"
Jesus said "they pierced my hands and feet"

But you can throw the rest out, Jesus never said anything else. YA RIGHT!

Who said anything about throwing everything else out?

Do me a favor, read my original post and refute it one by one.

Why? Everything you said has been refuted over and over and over by various people in this thread. Your OP makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts, which is little to none.

And as far as the lion and the oxen, that is figurative for the enemy. Even you can see that.

Oh Gorsh! NOW you are claiming it is FIGURATIVE! I thought you were claiming it was all literal?

Make up your mind.

Buddy stop making fun of me, and start giving good arguements.

I will make a deal with you. When you start making good arguments, then I will stop making fun of you. Until then you are much too funny. And if you haven't noticed, my mocking was just intersperced with my "good arguments" which you keep ignoring in favor or repeating yourself. That is why I mock you, because it is clear you don't listen to any "good arguments" - you deserve nothing better from me.

I see now are all christians like you, they make fun of someone who doesn't agree with your theology? Man you were taught right!

I have civil discussions with non Christians all the time, even atheists and agnostics! We get along fine because we respect each others opinions and actually LISTEN to each other. Its just when a know-it-all nincompoop like you comes along and ignores anything that goes against your preconceptions and insists on repeating your idiotic arguments that I turn to mockery. If you don't like it, start making sense.

No his sacrifice was unecessary. I wrote this article in Jesus' perspective not mankind. I stated that in the original post, why don't you read it again!

Just because you keep repeating that doesn't make it so.

No it does not! Making Jesus take everybody's sin is no where near just.

Not unless Jesus was GOD and volunteered to do it out of love.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Lying to Jesus is not Just.

He didn't lie. Jesus knew he was going to give up his life. He said it over and over and over long before he died.

Saying that each person is judged on their own deeds and having Jesus pay for them later on is lying and not just.

why not?

God is not fair.

Is too.

What's so fair about Jesus paying the price for all of man's sin, he was perfect and he should stay that way.

stop whining.

He earned his perfection. Read Ezekiel 18, where God said the father shall not pay the price for the son's sin.

Jesus is not the Father.

so what does God's mercy mean? I already addressed this in a previous post.

His mercy is that despite us deserving death, and being sinners, he loves us enough to give us a way out. That way was for Jesus to be our sacrifice. He gave his life for us despite us not deserving it. That is mercy.

And I'm the stupid one.

Finally! You admit it!

Do me a favor read all of those corresponding verses that apply to the OT and post how they are in context to what Paul is saying in Romans 3:10-18

do me a favor and actually READ the bible. All of it. You apparently are just getting snippets from websites. God says that NONE seek after him, NONE. All their acts are filthy rags. That means that even when you think you are going "good" it means nothing compared to God. You are like a bum wearing a filthy rag who tries to dust off a spot or two before standing before the king. You are still covered in filth.

You might try to follow the law, but you can never erase the stains of all of your past sins. You can never stop adding more stains to your soul.

If I gave you a glass of pure water and told you to drink it, you might do so, but if I told you that I added a few drops of raw sewage into the mix a few days ago, but promised I have stopped adding sewage to it, would you still drink?

[OldManZangetsu]

do me a favor and actually READ the bible. All of it. You apparently are just getting snippets from websites.

I concur. Out of context there are many passages that do seem to contradict each other. But you first need to grasp the big picture in order to get past those problematic passages. I would start by trying to understand the importance of OT sacrifice. That sets up the story for the sacrifice of Christ. Actually no... I would start by ceasing to second guess God, thinking that you know better than He how to work with His creation. But you are, of course, President of Moose Seminary... I leave it to you.

[moose7237]

Uh no. I am saying that the Psalm is first the mournful cry and poem of David and that it is a poem that represents prophesy about Jesus. It is NOT a script. If you want to know exactly what was going on during the crucifixion, read the the gospels.

And how sure are you that Jesus never made those cries. He accused the Father of forsaking him, why? If he knew his ultimate fate was to die on the cross, the father should have nothing to do with it. Jesus asked why the father forsook him because he was crying out to him and the Father didn't do anything. Why else did Jesus accuse the father of forsaking him? So it makes perfect sense that Jesus was crying out to have help from the father and to be saved. But I am going to expect you to call me a moron soon, but I simply don't care for your insults.

Who said anything about throwing everything else out?

well obviously that's what your doing because just about every other verse goes against your arguement and helps mine out

Why? Everything you said has been refuted over and over and over by various people in this thread. Your OP makes about as much sense as the rest of your posts, which is little to none.

not one person has given a refuatation to my original question of Isaiah 43:23-25. The only reason I keep going with this, is because everybody's arguement in here is quite pathetic, no one has given me a straight forward answer. All of them have deviated off the topic and result in me getting insulted. But hey, that's the Christian way, can't beat them, insult them. (not every christian, but you guys in here)

Oh Gorsh! NOW you are claiming it is FIGURATIVE! I thought you were claiming it was all literal?

Make up your mind.

show me where I said it was ALL literal

I have civil discussions with non Christians all the time, even atheists and agnostics! We get along fine because we respect each others opinions and actually LISTEN to each other. Its just when a know-it-all nincompoop like you comes along and ignores anything that goes against your preconceptions and insists on repeating your idiotic arguments that I turn to mockery. If you don't like it, start making sense.

just because I don't accept the way you have become brainwashed, it doesn't give you the right to insult me.

Not unless Jesus was GOD and volunteered to do it out of love.

When Jesus prayed in Matthew 26:39 he wasn't volunteering at all

This is when you are supposed to say "he wanted the WILL OF THE FATHER"

And I will say the will of the father was to have him killed right? And you will say "yes" and I will say, "so why pray in the first place, asking to be saved"

And you will not give me a straight up good answer, you will give me some rubbish like his human side was scared but his God side was more than willing to die.

His mercy is that despite us deserving death, and being sinners, he loves us enough to give us a way out. That way was for Jesus to be our sacrifice. He gave his life for us despite us not deserving it. That is mercy.

BIG TIME WRONG!!! his mercy was to the people who follow the law. What happens the people who don't follow the law? THEY GO TO HELL. Jesus said it himself! not the sacrifice which was totally unnecessary like I pointed out in my original article.

do me a favor and actually READ the bible. All of it. You apparently are just getting snippets from websites. God says that NONE seek after him, NONE. All their acts are filthy rags. That means that even when you think you are going "good" it means nothing compared to God. You are like a bum wearing a filthy rag who tries to dust off a spot or two before standing before the king. You are still covered in filth.

Snippets? Look at Romans 3:10-18, than look at the verses they correspond to and you can't deny that what Paul did was taking "snippets". If Paul did it and was inspired by God, I can do it too. NONE seek after him? So when Nations were blessed because of Abraham, Abraham wasn't seeking him right? I don't think so.

Bring on the Insults!!!