God's Injustice towards Jesus: crucifixion

[Sparko]

It's hard to say, because he is obsessively fixated on this single argument so far. In email correspondence he didn't do any better.

Yeah. well I am about done here since he can't seem to come up with anything new. Maybe if we let the thread die he will move on to something even funnier.

[Crow]

Do you think Moose has officially shown himself to be dumber than Johnny Skeptic?

[attachment]

[Sparko]

Yeah, crow,

at first I thought he was just trolling because nobody could really be that dumb and believe that stuff. But the more he actually argued the more convinced I became that he is serious and really is that dumb. Either that or he is a an excellent troll.

[Crow]

Yeah, crow,

at first I thought he was just trolling because nobody could really be that dumb and believe that stuff. But the more he actually argued the more convinced I became that he is serious and really is that dumb. Either that or he is a an excellent troll.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

He has demonstrated that he does not, nor does he have any desire to, honestly examine his opponent's arguments.

It is possible to be a troll and put forth one's positions simultaneously, as evidenced by our old friend, Troy. And such trolls tend to be not-so-bright because the trolling is an incidental and possibly unintended consequence, secondary to their desire to spread their views without the hinderance of responding to counterarguments.

[SpiritWoman]

What do you think he did for the three years before they crucified him, dimwit?

John 3

10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things?

11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

----
and going back to an earlier question of your where you asked where in the Old Testament that it talked about Jesus coming to save us, here is some more information for you.

from: http://www.lightofmashiach.org/prophecy.html ( I was too lazy to type in them all myself, so I found a site where I could cut and paste the prophesies from) - the old testament verses predicting the messiah and the places in the New Testament where Jesus shows he was that messiah. So the Jews WERE expecting him and he was clearly taught to them throughout history. They had no excuse to reject him and they did understand that their forgiveness was through him.

Messiah born of woman:
Gen 3:15 Luke 2:4-11 Gal 4:4

Messiah to be the offspring of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob:
Gen 17:19 Num 24:17 Luke 3:34 Mat 1:2

Messiah born in Bethlehem:
Mic 5:2 Mat 2:1-6 Luke 2:1-20

Messiah born of virgin:
Isa 7:14 Mat 1:18-25 Luke 1:26-38

Messiah would come 483 (Jewish) years after decree to rebuild Jerusalem:
Daniel 9:25 Nehemiah 2:1

Messiah would be of line of David:
Jeremiah 23:5 Matt 1:1-16 Luke 3:23-38

Messiah a prophet like Moses:
Deu 18:15,18,19 John 7:40

Messiah would be preceded by "voice crying in wilderness":
Isaiah 40:3, Malachi 3:1.

Messiah would be Light in Galilee:
Isaiah 9:1,2

Messiah would be Light to the Gentiles:
Isaiah 42:6 Isaiah 49:6 Acts 26:23

Messiah would speak in parables:
Ps 78:2 Matthew 13:35

Messiah has triumphant entry in Jerusalem:
Zech 9:9 Mat 21:1-9 John 12:12-16

Messiah to be rejected:
Isiah 49:7 Isaiah 52:14 Isaiah 53:1,3 Psa 118:22 Mat 26:3-4 John 12:37-43 Acts 4:1-12

Messiah tried and condemned:
Isa 53:8 Luke 23:1-25 Mat 27:1-2

Messiah silent like lamb when accused:
Isa 53:7 Mat 27:12-14 Mark 15:3-4 Luke 23:8-10

Messiah struck and spit at:
Isa 50:6 Mat 26:67 Mat 27:30 Mark 14:65

Messiah counted among criminals:
Isa 53:12 Mat 27:38 Mark 15:27-28 Luke 23:32-34

Messiah resurrected:
Psalm 16:10 Acts 13:33-35

Messiah to be mourned by rejecters:
Zechariah 12:10 John 19:37

Messiah a sin sacrifice:
Isa 53:5,6,8,10-12 John 1:29 John 11:49-52 Acts 10:43 Acts 13:38,39

Messiah would come to make an end to sins:
Daniel 9:24 Galations 1:3-5

Messiah would die for the sins of the world:
Isaiah 53:8 Daniel 9:26 1 John 2:2

Messiah provides salvation and intercedes:
Isaiah 59:15-16 Isaiah 63:5 John 6:40 Matthew 10:32-33

Messiah brings Israel back to God:
Isaiah 49:5 Matthew 15:24

Messiah comes to Zion as Redeemer:
Isaiah 59:20 Luke 2:38

Messiah is messenger for new covenant:
Malachi 3:1 Luke 4:43

Messiah/Servant will be covenant for the people:
Isaiah 42:6 Jeremiah 31:31 Matthew 26:28

If Jesus was of the line of David, then how so?

The only geneology I've read in the bible tells of Joseph's line. And if Mary was a virgin and was impregnated by the holy spirit then how would he have been of the line of David?

This is one BIG contradiction that plagues me.

Where is Mary's geneology?

My thoughts after many prayers is Jesus came to bring the Word of truth about the Creator and we are to meditate and pray on His Word. Never mind the blather about what connects him to blood/king/human existance.

He destroyed the earthly dwelling of human worshipping an ego/G_D as introduced in the Temple and holy land (matter) and open the doors of true Jeruselum (the Word) temporal.

In his acceptance of what he knew would prove to earthly dwellers, He, Jesus, knew that to prove the power of His Creator, He must first expose the people to thier own attachment to the material world and worship thereof and the pure sufferage we condemn ourselves to, by forfeiting His own earthly existance and let's face it, the pain and suffering He took, even now 2000 years later is felt by every single human being who loves Him. And even those who are not believers are appalled at the very thought of His sufferage. I have cried when I've imagined the suffering of the Magnificent Persona of Jesus. How could we detroy such a person? The pain was what Jesus asked to be spared of both the mental and physical aspect of both, but he had no fear in the truth of His Abba and the Promise of eternity.

He suffered truth of our earthly existance in Ego/Pain and our fear adn misunderstandings of the unknown Creator, and in this state of denial we condemned our brother's Gift of love, forgiveness and pure light. But for those who beleive in Him the ego is released and the light shines through, this was his gift, this was his life here on earth as it is in eternity.

When interpreting the human ego in all scripture, I am surprised sometimes how it's literal interpretation takes away the true symbol of his suffering and attaches it to an earthly exsistance the Body/Matter/blood/life/death and lowers His Persona and voids His message.

It would have been better to concentrate on His Word than to attach the OT as part of His history as it is to convoluted with Man's interpretations of G_D and our failure to be in harmony with the Creator.

Human's interpretations still affect our evolution today in a very negative way.

Through His teachings we are exposed to eternity by accepting His Word and following His path.

What is life Jeruselum/earth/temple/ego/laws/birth/death, alpha/omega or is life eternity/temporal/timeless/ecstasy of the spirit free of it's earth bound prison and it's human existence?

He knew the way, He loved us so that He showed the way, and through His Words and His powerful Love, we are free.

Blessings
SW

[Sparko]

The two are not mutually exclusive.

He has demonstrated that he does not, nor does he have any desire to, honestly examine his opponent's arguments.

It is possible to be a troll and put forth one's positions simultaneously, as evidenced by our old friend, Troy. And such trolls tend to be not-so-bright because the trolling is an incidental and possibly unintended consequence, secondary to their desire to spread their views without the hinderance of responding to counterarguments.

ah. the "Moronic Troll" subspecies. So stupid that they accidentally make themselves good at trolling. Good catch.

[moose7237]

Was this supposed to be some sort of problem for me? It isn't. But since you're so deep in the loser's box that you feel the need to change the subject....

funny, you totally evaded the verses I posted about the people who were killed if they left the covenant. You said they were free to enter the covenant, but obviously they aren't free to leave it!

Ok, so you said you are a slave to christ, whatever. Now answer this question, yet no one has answered yet. How did the Jews that were under the law have it equally fair as the christians who just rely on faith? Because you only have to believe one verse, and they had to follow over 600 commandments. Show me the equal fairness in that.

But I like the insults, keep them coming!

Here's a hint: Check out the "Body of Christ" references in Paul which tell us time and time again what one's duties are as a servant of Christ. I guess Paul missed that one about being free to do NOTHING when he talked about how he went out on mission trips where he got beaten, flogged, arrested, etc. ! Too bad, he could have spent the week on the beach at Tarsus!

Oh ok, so are you and every other Christian supposed to go on Mission trips and get beaten and flogged? Is it your DUTY to go on mission trips? Because the people of the law HAD to follow their commandments

Yes, once you lead other people down the road to eternal damnation, you die. How mean. God should have just slapped their widdle wrists with his pinky.

no that was one verse, the other verses said if you go and worship another God you are put to death. Aren't you free to do what you would like? I guess not! Those Jews were prisoners of the law!

[moose7237]

Just because you are too ignorant to understand the bible doesn't mean that your idiotic conclusion is right. Have you noticed that NO ONE has agreed with you? Jesus IS GOD. Someone else pointed that out to you and you dismissed it as not having anything to do with this, but you are wrong. It has everything to do with it. God sacrifices himself for our sin. The judge comes down and pays our penalty so we don't have to. Not only is God the Judge of our Sin, he is the VICTIM of it. Sin is against God. So the very victim of the crime forgives us and takes our penalty. Not some third party forced into taking our penalty.

Oh ok, so Did Jesus forsake himself on the cross since he is God? When he prayed in the Garden, was he praying to himself. If you read Psalms 18:50 It says God shows UNFAILING KINDNESS TO HIS ANOINTED. There is no kindness in putting all of man's sin on his anointed and than have him be sacrificed! That is called lying by God. You nor anyone else has refuted that yet! And I don't care how kind it is to every person that believes in Jesus. I'm saying its not kind to Jesus! Even though he prayed to be saved from that sacrifice and he Got forsaken which God said he would never do, yet another lie, which no one has refuted.

Duh! did you bother to check out all the verses I posted that showed that he DID tell them all about the Messiah and that he would be the penultimate sacrifice? I didn't think so. You are too lazy.

Ok so God did tell them that Jesus was going to come and die for them right? So what's the point of having them under the covenant of the law? Why not have them just believe by faith that Jesus was going to come and die for them, rather than having them follow over 600 laws all the time? And the gentiles don't need the law, they only need faith. According to God you can become righteous by the law, God said his law is righteous, and Abraham had NATIONS blessed because he followed the law.

And another thing,
Since you said Jesus is the new covenant, why did he still preach the law when he was alive during the time of the jews?

[moose7237]

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[jpholding]

funny, you totally evaded the verses I posted about the people who were killed if they left the covenant

In other words I totally answered you. You apparently think "freedom" entails evasion of consequences, which is downright stupid.

Ok, so you said you are a slave to christ, whatever. Now answer this question, yet no one has answered yet.

Yeah, we know. Only 200 times has THAT been answered.

But I like the insults, keep them coming!

OK.

You're so dumb, you think Taco Bell is a Mexican phone company!

Oh ok, so are you and every other Christian supposed to go on Mission trips and get beaten and flogged? Is it your DUTY to go on mission trips?

Zeus what an ignoramus.

Uh, yeah, you ARE supposed to put up with being beaten if it is what needs to be endured to preach the Gospel. It isn't always. And YES, it is your duty to be a missionary (Matt. 28:19-20, dork).

I guess not! Those Jews were prisoners of the law!

Isn't that sad. They were so proud of it as a symbol of cultural identity, too. So when do you plan to step before your state legislature and give them half a peace sign?


Also, what was your excuse for using a website that predicts UFO invasions as an authoritative source, again?

[moose7237]

Why did you totally evade the question? No it has not been answered. And if it has been answered it was a stupid response that made no sense.

[Sparko]

Why did you totally evade the question? No it has not been answered. And if it has been answered it was a stupid response that made no sense.

Wow, you must be psychic! I was just going to ask you the same thing. You evade every question or ANSWER anyone makes and just make stupid responses that make no sense and repeat yourself.

Like when I gave you a whole LIST of verses that answered your stupid questions and yet instead of reading them, you merely ask them all over again

Ok so God did tell them that Jesus was going to come and die for them right? So what's the point of having them under the covenant of the law? Why not have them just believe by faith that Jesus was going to come and die for them, rather than having them follow over 600 laws all the time? And the gentiles don't need the law, they only need faith. According to God you can become righteous by the law, God said his law is righteous, and Abraham had NATIONS blessed because he followed the law.

Read the verses I quoted. If you are too lazy to do any homework then you deserve to be ignorant. Do you need someone to pound the bible into your head for you? :biblethump:

Now I am gonna go find some other thread where an actual discussion can take place. Don't hold your breath for any more responses from me in this one.

[moose7237]

Wait a sec here,
I saw the verses, I read some not all of them, but none of them said that The messiah will require you not to follow the law, and none of the OT verses said that BELIEVING IN THE MESSIAH WILL GIVE YOU SALVATION. Like I said, the OT might have said that there will be an end to atonement, but no where did it say you are not required to follow the law anymore. Like I said where is the fairness, Paul was the first person that said you don't need to follow the law and still get salvation, Jesus never said stop following the law.

[OU812]

Wow, you must be psychic! I was just going to ask you the same thing. You evade every question or ANSWER anyone makes and just make stupid responses that make no sense and repeat yourself.

Yeah, in that, he sort of reminds me of Pitchforkpat.

Remember him/her??

[moose7237]

I am going to post the original questions that no one has given remotely close to a good answer for:

Now this will promt me to ask this question:
If Jesus knew that the will of the father was to have him killed, and that the prophecy in Psalm 22 must be fulfilled by him, why did he make that prayer in the first place? Why did he say "Take this cup from me?"

Now one might bring up this very verse:
John 12:27
"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

Now this is in complete contradiction to the other 3 verses posted. If you read what happened in the garden in the Gospel of John, you will find out it differs from Matthew, Luke, and Mark significantly, because in John, Jesus was willing to go with the enemy, in the other 3 Gospels Jesus said nothing and Judas kissed him, he didn't answer them when they asked "where is Jesus" like John says. As a matter of fact, when Jesus was in the Garden, John didn't even say that Jesus got down and prayed to the father to take the cup away. (At least not that I've seen)

So where I'm trying to get at here, is that John and the other 3 gospels, regarding the Garden are very different. Jesus did not want to go on the cross, he prayed to be saved from it. Another verse of Jesus praying is Hebrews 5:7

During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Now lets look at Psalms 34:17
The righteous cry out, and the LORD hears them;
he delivers them from all their troubles.

So Jesus should have been saved from the cross right? He did cry out to be saved, he did pray to be saved, but yet he was not saved! David on the other hand was.

Psalm 37:39-40
39But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

40And the LORD shall help them, and deliver them: he shall deliver them from the wicked, and save them, because they trust in him.

Now if I'm not mistaken didn't God forsake Jesus when he was on the cross? I think he did, because Jesus accused him of it. Jesus was never delivered or saved from the wicked, as a matter of fact they utterly humiliated him!!!

Psalms 34:21-22
21 Evil will slay the wicked;
the foes of the righteous will be condemned.

22 The LORD redeems his servants;
no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him.

Now I don't get it. God says that the wicked or evil people will be condemned, and he says that no one will be condemned who takes refuge in him. But Jesus was definitly condemned to death, but David on the other hand, was saved!

Now you might say that Jesus had to die for us, so our sins will be forgiven. Now the real question is: Is sacrifice the only way for God to forgive our sins? I don't think so:
Isaiah 43:23-25
You have not brought me sheep for burnt offerings,
nor honored me with your sacrifices.
I have not burdened you with grain offerings
nor wearied you with demands for incense.

24 You have not bought any fragrant calamus for me,
or lavished on me the fat of your sacrifices.
But you have burdened me with your sins
and wearied me with your offenses.

25 "I, even I, am he who blots out
your transgressions, for my own sake,
and remembers your sins no more.

Now I have read 4 commentaries that say that God loved Israel so much that even when they were wicked and still didn't think of God but he still loved them so much that he forgave them without any sacrifices. So God DID forgive them with no atonement, why couldn't he do the same and spare Jesus from utter suffering and humiliation? Why must Jesus beg and not be answered to be saved? God could have easily forgave the people of Israel again and not have the most rigtheous man get crucified.

Now here is what troubles me the most:
Psalm 18:50
He gives his king great victories;
he shows unfailing kindness to his anointed,
to David and his descendants forever.

The key word here is UNFAILING. God was very kind to David even when he committed adultery. Why wasn't he kind enough to save Jesus from suffering? How kind is it to put the only sinless man through torture of the enemy? Not Kind at all. I'm thinking for Jesus here, not mankind.

Now if you answer this arguement, please use logic and not rubbish. Like Jesus' human side wanted to be saved not his God side. That is stupid and illogical. Jesus wanted to be saved, and based on the verses I gave you, God not only is unjust, but lied as well.

JPHolding, don't bother, you just make yourself look weaker by attacking me and doing nothing to answer the arguements. All you can do is give me your stupid smiley faces and your pathetic attempt to get cheap shot insults in without answering anything like the e-mails as well.