Quran might predate Muhammad?

[siam]

So, the ones that "impress" you are the ones who don't stand up against false beliefs and teachings?

Yes--because to stand up for your faith without attacking the "other" is more difficult to do....
I find it difficult---so ofcourse I admire those who have such ability....

[Cerebrum123]

Yes--because to stand up for your faith without attacking the "other" is more difficult to do....
I find it difficult---so ofcourse I admire those who have such ability....

That's just really dumb. One should always stand up to false ideas and teachings. Being purely defensive against falsehood will do nothing to prevent it from spreading.

[Christian3]

Take a look at this!


This has major implications if it predates Muhammad or if it's contemporary with his life. If it predates, then it contradicts his story that the verses originated with his meeting the angel Gabriel and getting them from him. That would indicate that the Quran is an old Christian heresy that Muhammad adopted and used for his political and theological gain. If it's contemporary with him, then it contradicts the claim that the verses were memorized and written down after his life. I think the article sums it well by saying

Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'

Answering-Islam has something on this:

http://www.answering-islam.org/filea...gham_quran.pdf

[siam]

[Christian3]

Would a perfectly preserved Qur'an mean it came from God?

I don't think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raw-SB7AjMo

[siam]

Would a perfectly preserved Qur'an mean it came from God?

I don't think so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raw-SB7AjMo

As I mentioned elsewhere, Western Quranic studies is still a young field. Muslims have analyzed the Quran for far longer and there is more information about it in the long Muslim tradition than what Western studies of the Quran has uncovered so far. Hopefully they will catch up and interesting dialogues can begin....maybe....

It is true, that preservation alone does not indicate it "came from God". The Quran itself indicates the criteria of testing---which is pretty straightforward and commonsense (and scientific)---if the Quran is written by a human being---then one human being can reproduce a Surah like it, or a group of human beings can reproduce 10 Surah like it. In science, once a hypothesis is established, it should be tested and the test results should be reproducible. Therefore---if the hypothesis is that the Quran is a human endeavor---then reproduce it.

To this end---the Quran has been thoroughly analyzed for its literary qualities (in the Muslim tradition).

The Quran is a complex and interesting book---if Christians can get over their obsession with debunking the Quran/Islam, I am sure they can find much that is fascinating....and fortunately, there are serious Western scholars who are discovering this aspect. (See articles by Angelika Neuwirth and other such scholars)

for example:-
https://en.qantara.de/content/interv...-is-an-age-oldhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMHxAMMFVV0

[siam]

...with regards to the video link by Christian 3

Would it bother a Christian that Jews do not consider the New Testament "the word of God" or "from God"? If not, why expect Muslims to be bothered by what Christians claim of the Quran?

As to the content of the video---there were references to 3 stories, all of which were misrepresented. The argument put forward is that because Christians consider certain texts as "from God", then stories outside of those texts are therefore---not "from God". (With that logic, one might conclude that the story of Noah "is not from God" because an Akkadian poem of Gilgamesh has the same story!) Whatever criteria Christians want to use for themselves is fine---but that does not mean that Muslims have to agree to, or follow, the Christian criteria of what is or is not "from God". Muslims have their own criteria of judgement.

As for the Quranic stories--whether biblical or non-biblical, ---they serve as platforms for Guidance. In the pre-Modern era of oral traditions, wisdom/guidance/life-lessons...were taught through narratives and the Quranic stories carry wisdom teachings and ethico-moral lessons.
for example, the (Quranic) story of the Queen of Sheba is about gratefulness/ungratefulness in relation to humility/pride. Truth/knowledge can be discerned only if one approaches learning with humility and gratefulness.

http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslat...nslationBook=7to test me as to whether I am grateful or ungrateful! However, he who is grateful [to God] is but grateful for his own good; and he who is ungrateful [should know that], verily, my Sustainer is self-sufficient, most generous in giving!"and doubt is the first step in all spiritual progress.

[Christian3]

...with regards to the video link by Christian 3

Would it bother a Christian that Jews do not consider the New Testament "the word of God" or "from God"? If not, why expect Muslims to be bothered by what Christians claim of the Quran?

As to the content of the video---there were references to 3 stories, all of which were misrepresented. The argument put forward is that because Christians consider certain texts as "from God", then stories outside of those texts are therefore---not "from God". (With that logic, one might conclude that the story of Noah "is not from God" because an Akkadian poem of Gilgamesh has the same story!) Whatever criteria Christians want to use for themselves is fine---but that does not mean that Muslims have to agree to, or follow, the Christian criteria of what is or is not "from God". Muslims have their own criteria of judgement.

As for the Quranic stories--whether biblical or non-biblical, ---they serve as platforms for Guidance. In the pre-Modern era of oral traditions, wisdom/guidance/life-lessons...were taught through narratives and the Quranic stories carry wisdom teachings and ethico-moral lessons.
for example, the (Quranic) story of the Queen of Sheba is about gratefulness/ungratefulness in relation to humility/pride. Truth/knowledge can be discerned only if one approaches learning with humility and gratefulness.

http://www.altafsir.com/ViewTranslat...nslationBook=7to test me as to whether I am grateful or ungrateful! However, he who is grateful [to God] is but grateful for his own good; and he who is ungrateful [should know that], verily, my Sustainer is self-sufficient, most generous in giving!"and doubt is the first step in all spiritual progress.

If I were a Muslim I would be very concerned about all the folklore in the Qur'an that is supposed to be revelation from God.

The video only touched on a few. There is more.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Books...rces/index.htm

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kora...s-dr-morey.htm

[siam]

If I were a Muslim I would be very concerned about all the folklore in the Qur'an that is supposed to be revelation from God.

---are you similarly concerned about all the stories/parables in your NT?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/parable

Parable---definition
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Word Origin
from Old French parabole, from Latin parabola comparison, from Greek parabolē analogy, from paraballein to throw alongside, from para- 1 + ballein to throw

Synonyms
allegory, homily, apologue.


The Quran says (2:26)

M. Asad
Behold, God does not disdain to propound a parable of a gnat, or of something [even] less than that. Now, as for those who have attained to faith, they know that it is the truth from their Sustainer - whereas those who are bent on denying the truth say, "What could God mean by this parable?" In this way does He cause many a one to go astray, just as He guides many a one aright: but none does He cause thereby to go astray save the iniquitous,

M. M. Pickthall
Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;

Yusuf Ali
Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

[Christian3]

---are you similarly concerned about all the stories/parables in your NT?

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/parable

Parable---definition
noun
1.
a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2.
a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Word Origin
from Old French parabole, from Latin parabola comparison, from Greek parabolē analogy, from paraballein to throw alongside, from para- 1 + ballein to throw

Synonyms
allegory, homily, apologue.


The Quran says (2:26)

M. Asad
Behold, God does not disdain to propound a parable of a gnat, or of something [even] less than that. Now, as for those who have attained to faith, they know that it is the truth from their Sustainer - whereas those who are bent on denying the truth say, "What could God mean by this parable?" In this way does He cause many a one to go astray, just as He guides many a one aright: but none does He cause thereby to go astray save the iniquitous,

M. M. Pickthall
Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;

Yusuf Ali
Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

No, I am not concerned about the parables.

[siam]

No, I am not concerned about the parables.

right...

In sacred literature, it is not the genre that is important (narrative history, comedy, tragedy...etc) rather the wisdom teaching/guidance that it is pointing towards/teaching.

so...in your sacred literature, are there any stories, wisdom teaching about learning/acquiring knowledge? anything about attitudes and etiquettes of seeking knowledge?

[Christian3]

right...

In sacred literature, it is not the genre that is important (narrative history, comedy, tragedy...etc) rather the wisdom teaching/guidance that it is pointing towards/teaching.

so...in your sacred literature, are there any stories, wisdom teaching about learning/acquiring knowledge? anything about attitudes and etiquettes of seeking knowledge?

Surely you are not trying to excuse what I presented as some of the origins in the Qur'an with parables or wisdom literature!?

[siam]

Surely you are not trying to excuse what I presented as some of the origins in the Qur'an with parables or wisdom literature!?

The Quran is Guidance to humanity--Ofcourse it is wisdom teachings.

[Christian3]

The Quran is Guidance to humanity--Ofcourse it is wisdom teachings.

My point is why use so much folklore and why not identify it as folklore?

[siam]

My point is why use so much folklore and why not identify it as folklore?

The Quran is considered "Divine speech" (by Muslims). Before it is a written text, it is an oral/audio persuasion and guidance. The Audience is primarily the polytheists of the area who have not received any scripture before. When ethical/moral lessons are to be taught to people of all ages, particularly in an oral background---storytelling is the best method to use. The Quran uses stories from a wide range of genres---but the Quranic stories have a unique composition and style. The ethico-moral lessons are also consistent and wholistic in their relevance to Tawheed (Unity---the most central theme of the Quranic worldview/paradigm).

Christians often read the Quran with their Bible version of stories in mind---and so, often miss the point. For example, Daniel Petersen, a Mormon scholar, once explained that when he read a certain surah in Arabic, (Surah 114) he could hear the "sss" rhyming sound at the end of the verses---and he linked it to the talking snake in the Adam and Eve story. As a Muslim, I would never have made that sort of connection partly because that is not what the words mean and also because there is no talking snake in the Quranic story of Adam.

As the story of the Queen of Sheba indicated---if one approaches the Quran with a dogmatic mind---that they know all therefore there is nothing more to know....the Quran will not show its wisdom. If they approach it with humility and a heart filled with gratefulness to God....there may be much wisdom found....

A Muslim philosopher, Al Gazzali said---"to doubt is to find Truth---Those who do not have doubt cannot think and those who cannot think, cannot find Truth". The search for knowledge must begin with a question and questions arise out of a curiosity "to know"---to know something we do not know.

So, one can even consider the use of familiar stories as a test of the heart/intention. A thinking person will see the wisdom and guidance, but one who approaches these stories with preconceived ideas and assumptions may miss much....
That is why the Shahada (creed) begins with a negation---there is no God---so that we first leave all our preconceptions of the Divine/Divinities and start fresh.