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Thread: Quran might predate Muhammad?

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    Exclamation Quran might predate Muhammad?

    Take a look at this!


    This has major implications if it predates Muhammad or if it's contemporary with his life. If it predates, then it contradicts his story that the verses originated with his meeting the angel Gabriel and getting them from him. That would indicate that the Quran is an old Christian heresy that Muhammad adopted and used for his political and theological gain. If it's contemporary with him, then it contradicts the claim that the verses were memorized and written down after his life. I think the article sums it well by saying

    Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
    “The way I see it, every life is a pile of good things and bad things. The good things don’t always soften the bad things, but vice versa, the bad things don’t always spoil the good things and make them unimportant.”
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    I wonder how Muslims and Bahai' will take this if it turns out to be older than Mohammed.
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    Interesting.

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    Could be, but it's possible that the parchment just wasn't used immediately.

    In any case, Islam has never been particularly interested in studying ancient copies of the Koran, since it is an article of faith that it hasn't changed.
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    It would also lend credence to the Idea that Mohammed may have been a composite of several people according to many scholars.
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    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Could be, but it's possible that the parchment just wasn't used immediately.

    In any case, Islam has never been particularly interested in studying ancient copies of the Koran, since it is an article of faith that it hasn't changed.
    Coins with Quranic writings on them dating from 685 AD (minted during the reign of Abd al-Malik), as well as inscriptions within the Dome of the Rock sanctuary (built in Jerusalem in 691 AD by Abd al-Malik), strongly indicate that the Qur'an has been subject to textual revisions. The quotations on the coins and especially in the Dome of the Rock, differ in detail from that which is found in the Qur'an today.

    Moreover, the evidence shows that a considerable portion of the Qur'an was lost and much of what is left has been substantially altered. The testimonies of Muhammad’s trusted friends and family (among them Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ubay ibn Ka’b and ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib) attest to this fact.

    Abdullah ibn Umar, a.k.a. ‘Ibn Umar al-Khattab, explicitly states that a large part of the Qur'an was missing: “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of what is available.’”

    A’isha, Muhammad’s last wife and some times referred to as the "Mother of the Believers," corroborated this adding: “During the time of the prophet, the chapter or sura of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Koran, only the current (verses) were recorded” (73 verses).

    The same statement was made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the greatest of Muhammad's companions and highly regarded in the early Muslim community, as recorded in the Al-Itqān fi ‘Ulum Al-Qur’an (Itqan for brevity's sake), by Suyuti: “This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the sura of the parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, “It used to be almost equal to the csura the cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death.’”[1]

    ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib the Fourth Caliph of the Muslims and Muhammad's cousin and later the son-in-law, also confirmed that dozens of verses from the “Chapter of the Parties” were lost.

    This same story and same dialogue is also recorded by Abū Muḥammad ʿAlī ibn Aḥmad ibn Saʿīd ibn Ḥazm (or just Ibn Hazm) in volume 8 of his Al-Muhalla (a.k.a. "The Sweetened" or "The Adorned Treatise"), to which he added the following note: “’Ali Ibn Abi Talib said this was a reliable chain of authority and the Zamakh-sharif also cited it in his book al-Kash-Shaf.

    The Itqan by Suyuti also relates in its first part that other portions of the Qur'an were lost stating “Malik says that several verses of Sura 9 (Sura of Repentance) have been dropped from the beginning. Among them is ‘In the name of God, the passionate, the merciful’ because it was proven that the length of the Sura of Repentance was equal to the length of the Sura of the Cow.” This means that this chapter has lost approximately 157 verses!

    The Itqan also states, as have other scholars, that that the copy of the Qur'an owned by Ubay and another of Muhammad's companions, Abdulla Ibn Mas’ud, included two suras called “The Hafad” and “The Khal” -- both of which are located after the sura of “The ’Asr.” Also, the Quranic copy of Ibn Mas’ud does not contain the suras of “The Hamd” and “The Mu’withatan” (Sura 113, 114).

    So what exactly happened to some of the missing parts? Would you believe the “my dog ate it,” or a similar schoolboy excuse has been presented? In volume 8 of the Al-Muhalla Ibn Hazm clearly states: “The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Quranic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it.” Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book Al-Kashshaaf by Al-Zamakhshari, confirms this claiming that the tradition came directly from both Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha. This same incident is mentioned by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al-Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, who heard it from Abdulla who had himself heard it from A’isha. So I guess, “my goat ate it” would probably be more correct.















    1. The same source also notes that, “During the collection of the Kora, people used to come to Zayd ibn Thabit (with verses they memorized). He shunned recording any verse unless two witness attested to it. The last verse of the chapter of Repentance was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit. Zayd said, ‘Record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men.’ Umar came with the verse of the stoning but it was not recorded because he was the only witness to it.” Umar would later say “If it were not that the people would say ‘Umar has added to the book of God,’ I would have recorded the verse of the stoning.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogue06 View Post
    Coins with Quranic writings on them dating from 685 AD (minted during the reign of Abd al-Malik), as well as inscriptions within the Dome of the Rock sanctuary (built in Jerusalem in 691 AD by Abd al-Malik), strongly indicate that the Qur'an has been subject to textual revisions. The quotations on the coins and especially in the Dome of the Rock, differ in detail from that which is found in the Qur'an today.

    Moreover, the evidence shows that a considerable portion of the Qur'an was lost and much of what is left has been substantially altered. The testimonies of Muhammad’s trusted friends and family (among them Ibn Umar, A’isha, Ubay ibn Ka’b and ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib) attest to this fact.

    Abdullah ibn Umar, a.k.a. ‘Ibn Umar al-Khattab, explicitly states that a large part of the Qur'an was missing: “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur'an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur'an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of what is available.’”

    A’isha, Muhammad’s last wife and some times referred to as the "Mother of the Believers," corroborated this adding: “During the time of the prophet, the chapter or sura of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Koran, only the current (verses) were recorded” (73 verses).

    The same statement was made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the greatest of Muhammad's companions and highly regarded in the early Muslim community, as recorded in the Al-Itqān fi ‘Ulum Al-Qur’an (Itqan for brevity's sake), by Suyuti: “This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the sura of the parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, “It used to be almost equal to the csura the cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death.’”[1]

    ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib the Fourth Caliph of the Muslims and Muhammad's cousin and later the son-in-law, also confirmed that dozens of verses from the “Chapter of the Parties” were lost.

    This same story and same dialogue is also recorded by Abū Muḥammad ʿAlī ibn Aḥmad ibn Saʿīd ibn Ḥazm (or just Ibn Hazm) in volume 8 of his Al-Muhalla (a.k.a. "The Sweetened" or "The Adorned Treatise"), to which he added the following note: “’Ali Ibn Abi Talib said this was a reliable chain of authority and the Zamakh-sharif also cited it in his book al-Kash-Shaf.

    The Itqan by Suyuti also relates in its first part that other portions of the Qur'an were lost stating “Malik says that several verses of Sura 9 (Sura of Repentance) have been dropped from the beginning. Among them is ‘In the name of God, the passionate, the merciful’ because it was proven that the length of the Sura of Repentance was equal to the length of the Sura of the Cow.” This means that this chapter has lost approximately 157 verses!

    The Itqan also states, as have other scholars, that that the copy of the Qur'an owned by Ubay and another of Muhammad's companions, Abdulla Ibn Mas’ud, included two suras called “The Hafad” and “The Khal” -- both of which are located after the sura of “The ’Asr.” Also, the Quranic copy of Ibn Mas’ud does not contain the suras of “The Hamd” and “The Mu’withatan” (Sura 113, 114).

    So what exactly happened to some of the missing parts? Would you believe the “my dog ate it,” or a similar schoolboy excuse has been presented? In volume 8 of the Al-Muhalla Ibn Hazm clearly states: “The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Quranic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it.” Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book Al-Kashshaaf by Al-Zamakhshari, confirms this claiming that the tradition came directly from both Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha. This same incident is mentioned by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al-Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, who heard it from Abdulla who had himself heard it from A’isha. So I guess, “my goat ate it” would probably be more correct.















    1. The same source also notes that, “During the collection of the Kora, people used to come to Zayd ibn Thabit (with verses they memorized). He shunned recording any verse unless two witness attested to it. The last verse of the chapter of Repentance was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit. Zayd said, ‘Record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men.’ Umar came with the verse of the stoning but it was not recorded because he was the only witness to it.” Umar would later say “If it were not that the people would say ‘Umar has added to the book of God,’ I would have recorded the verse of the stoning.”
    This sounds strangely similar to stuff in the Mormon forum.

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  12. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
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    I don't know much about Islam or the Koran, but it seems to me that parts of it can be understood as originating in creative midrash upon the Hebrew scriptures.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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    tWebber Jesse's Avatar
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    Chris White has done a very good study on Islamic eschatology. Where he expresses the same idea that the Hadiths that talk about end time events are lifted directly from The Bible and Christian heretical (gnostic) books:



    So it wouldn't be surprising that the Quran would also have the same content.
    "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." ― C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock: Essays on Theology (Making of Modern Theology)

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