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Thread: Quran might predate Muhammad?

  1. #11
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Shirt Ninja View Post
    Take a look at this!


    This has major implications if it predates Muhammad or if it's contemporary with his life. If it predates, then it contradicts his story that the verses originated with his meeting the angel Gabriel and getting them from him. That would indicate that the Quran is an old Christian heresy that Muhammad adopted and used for his political and theological gain. If it's contemporary with him, then it contradicts the claim that the verses were memorized and written down after his life. I think the article sums it well by saying

    Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
    Need more information and references.

    Rougoe06 gave some reasonable historical references concerning the Quran. The Baha'is have no problem with an evolved text of Holy Books as also is evidenced concerning the evolved history of the OT and NT.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-04-2015 at 06:15 PM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  2. #12
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    This sounds strangely similar to stuff in the Mormon forum.
    This sounds strangely familiar with the history of the Old Testament and the New Testament.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  3. Amen stfoskey15 amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    As far as I can Tom Holland has not come up with anything new concerning the history of the Quran. Yes the Quran has its roots in the Jewish Torah.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  5. #14
    tWebber
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    Revisionist History has/had 2 theories about the Quran---1) that it predates Prophet Muhammed 2) that it postdates Prophet Muhammed.
    Both are pinned on the assumption that there is not enough historical evidence to substantiate the generally accepted narrative....
    The point of intersection between these types of revisionist narratives and the Islamic one is that all agree that the Prophet Muhammed is not the "author" of the Quran.
    In the case of the Muslim narrative, the claim is based on comparison of the literary styles of the the Quran with the constitution of Medina and the various letters and peace treaties that the Prophet dictated.

    As far as Muslims are concerned there is not enough evidence to support either of the 2 revisionist theories and with the new evidence, theory 2 is dead. Theory 1 is almost dead as well...unless the revisionist historians can come up with a plausible excuse why some events that happened IN the lifetime of the Prophet are alluded to in the Quran BEFORE they actually happened.....

    So far...the traditional narrative is the one that makes the most historical sense. The Western narrative generally leans towards the Prophet as the "author" (for lack of any other figure as the possible candidate) whereas Muslims claim he isn't....

    Literary analysis of the Quran is a recent field of research for Western scholars (though Muslim scholars have done the work already since the 9th century). This analysis shows that the Quran is the work of a single "author"/style, that it has consistency and coherence in the use of various literary devices and styles.....


  6. #15
    tWebber
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    Islam as a religion(way of life) has evolved/developed over time---though this development is unrelated to the issue of whether the Quran has remained unchanged or not....

  7. #16
    Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    Islam as a religion(way of life) has evolved/developed over time---though this development is unrelated to the issue of whether the Quran has remained unchanged or not....
    Is this why it's easier to justify cutting the heads off of Christians? Because of this "evolution/development"?

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  8. #17
    tWebber Darth Ovious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Shirt Ninja View Post
    Take a look at this!


    This has major implications if it predates Muhammad or if it's contemporary with his life. If it predates, then it contradicts his story that the verses originated with his meeting the angel Gabriel and getting them from him. That would indicate that the Quran is an old Christian heresy that Muhammad adopted and used for his political and theological gain. If it's contemporary with him, then it contradicts the claim that the verses were memorized and written down after his life. I think the article sums it well by saying

    Historian Tom Holland, told the Times: 'It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged - and that in turn has implications for the history of Muhammad and the Companions.'
    Mmmmm, this will be an interesting discussion point to bring up with the Muslims in the city centre who hand the leaflets in regards to Christianity.
    “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

  9. #18
    tWebber
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    "If it's contemporary with him, then it contradicts the claim that the verses were memorized and written down after his life. "

    Since this is not a claim made by Muslims/Islam...its contradiction does not have any effect....

    Muslims have always claimed that the Quran was both memorized and written (in pieces---not book form) during the lifetime of the Prophet----The "Uthmani Codex" we have today (book form) was during Caliph Uthmans time.

  10. #19
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by siam View Post
    "If it's contemporary with him, then it contradicts the claim that the verses were memorized and written down after his life. "

    Since this is not a claim made by Muslims/Islam...its contradiction does not have any effect....

    Muslims have always claimed that the Quran was both memorized and written (in pieces---not book form) during the lifetime of the Prophet----The "Uthmani Codex" we have today (book form) was during Caliph Uthmans time.
    The only problem I have with this is that the early evidence is that the text of the known early records is variable. I believe Mohammed was the Divine inspiration for the Quran, and some of the material may predate him inspired by the Torah and tradition, but like the Torah and the NT, actual history of a literal unchanging document inspired word for word literally by God.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  11. #20
    tWebber
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    @ Shuny
    Early evidence---So far, actual(physical) evidence points to an unvarying Quran which is traced to the Uthmani codex (approx 653-656 CE). The narrative of "variations" comes from Islamic sources---which is somewhat ironic since most Western historians prefer to discount "Islamic sources" as faith-based, biased accounts......

    The theory that some material may predate the Prophet and others may be contemporaneous is interesting---but as I mentioned...literary analysis of the style would discount the possibility that the Quran is an amalgamation of different works over a long period of time. A literary look at the Quran is still in its infancy for Westerners (though Muslims have been there/done that centuries ago) so for Westerners there is still much to explore in this area.....

    I can't comment on the NT, but with regards to the Torah/larger body of Jewish scripture....The present (Western) theory is that the Quran was in "dialogue" with Jewish scripture as a counter-narrative/response. This would explain (for Western non-Muslims) why the narratives of the Quran differ or emphasize a different pov than that of the Jewish scripture. It would also explain why the Quran does not replicate some of the historical errors/inaccuracies of the Jewish scriptures.

    The Quran uses narratives from Torah, Talmud (Mishna, Gemara, Rabbinical writings---Both Yerushalmi and Barelvi) which alone would indicate a high scholarly level for the "author" of the Quran...but in addition, the Quran also contains narratives from Christian apocrypha and folk tales---and some go even further and claim the Quran has knowledge of other philosophies/religions/laws of the ancient world.....This type of learning would require years of study at least.....In any case, how Western non-Muslims want to explain the content of the Quran is upto them----We Muslims have our own narrative......

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