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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    I elaborated on my #301 statement in both #309 and #311, where I made clear that the intrinsic quality of all living creatures was the ‘survival instinct’ which, in the case of a social species such as us, manifests itself by valuing our fellows. In short, the valuing of our fellow man is a secondary characteristic of the survival instinct for a social species such as us; it's a survival mechanism.

    So why have you by-passed the explanation of what I was actually saying as opposed to what you think I was saying? …easier to argue against a straw-man perhaps?

    NB: Why haven't you responded to Jim's post #326 just above? We await your answer.
    Yes Tass, you changed your position and dropped the intrinsic value claim after I called you on it. But really Tass bro, it would have been a lot less painful for all of us if you just admitted that you misspoke.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
      You defined intrinsic, not intrinsic value which you apply to humans as opposed to other animals. I think what you actually mean is intrinsic quality, as value itself is not intrinsic. Value is what worth, what good, or what usefulness one thing has to something else. In other words you are refering to the value that you believe human beings have in the eyes of god as opposed to other animals. But of course if god doesn't exist, then you have no more value to god than does the common housefly.
      I'm not sure what your point is Jim. I did not bring God into this debate and I did not bring the concept of intrinsic value into this debate.
      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

      Comment


      • Originally posted by seer View Post
        Yes Tass, you changed your position and dropped the intrinsic value claim after I called you on it. But really Tass bro, it would have been a lot less painful for all of us if you just admitted that you misspoke.
        How about addressing the issue rather than trying to catch me out. What is “intrinsic” about all living things is the survival instinct which, in the case of a social species such as us, manifests itself by valuing our fellows. In short, the valuing of our fellow man is a secondary characteristic of the survival instinct for a social species such as us; it's a survival mechanism, it forms the basis of our moral codes and ethical maxims such as the Golden Rule.
        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          How about addressing the issue rather than trying to catch me out. What is “intrinsic” about all living things is the survival instinct which, in the case of a social species such as us, manifests itself by valuing our fellows. In short, the valuing of our fellow man is a secondary characteristic of the survival instinct for a social species such as us; it's a survival mechanism, it forms the basis of our moral codes and ethical maxims such as the Golden Rule.
          Oh stop...
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • Originally posted by seer View Post
            Oh stop...
            It’s no good running away seer. Do you deny that the one quality intrinsic to all living creatures is the ‘survival instinct’? And that this quality is manifested in various ways according to the species?

            As social animals we value our fellow man because our survival as a social species depends upon it...but this is secondary to the survival instinct, it’s a by-product. “Value” isn't an intrinsic quality in-and-of-itself.

            I suppose you would say that Man is intrinsically valuable because a deity made him in his own image, there’s no good reason to think this.
            Last edited by Tassman; 10-11-2015, 12:44 AM.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
              It’s no good running away seer. Do you deny that the one quality intrinsic to all living creatures is the ‘survival instinct’? And that this quality is manifested in various ways according to the species?

              As social animals we value our fellow man because our survival as a social species depends upon it...but this is secondary to the survival instinct, it’s a by-product. “Value” isn't an intrinsic quality in-and-of-itself.

              I suppose you would say that Man is intrinsically valuable because a deity made him in his own image, there’s no good reason to think this.
              Tass, I never denied that survival was an intrinsic characteristic, only that we don't have intrinsic worth or value. For the clear reasons I already gave. So when you said that humans have intrinsic value you misspoke.
              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

              Comment


              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                Tass, I never denied that survival was an intrinsic characteristic, only that we don't have intrinsic worth or value. For the clear reasons I already gave. So when you said that humans have intrinsic value you misspoke.
                I believe I several times clarified that “value” isn't an intrinsic quality in-and-of-itself but secondary to the survival instinct which is intrinsic, i.e. it’s a by-product. Do you disagree?
                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by seer View Post
                  Tass, I never denied that survival was an intrinsic characteristic, only that we don't have intrinsic worth or value. For the clear reasons I already gave. So when you said that humans have intrinsic value you misspoke.
                  Could you explain what you mean by intrinsic value seer? If you mean to say that human beings have relative worth, well then, so does a shovel. Intrinsic, inherent, or innate value has nothing to do with what our use or value is to something outside of ourselves.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                    Could you explain what you mean by intrinsic value seer? If you mean to say that human beings have relative worth, well then, so does a shovel. Intrinsic, inherent, or innate value has nothing to do with what our use or value is to something outside of ourselves.
                    Why don't you ask Tass, he brought it up - not me.
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                      I believe I several times clarified that “value” isn't an intrinsic quality in-and-of-itself but secondary to the survival instinct which is intrinsic, i.e. it’s a by-product. Do you disagree?
                      Well I'm glad you agree that you were wrong.
                      Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by seer View Post
                        Well I'm glad you agree that you were wrong.
                        I believe I several times clarified that “value” isn't an intrinsic quality in-and-of-itself but secondary to the survival instinct which is intrinsic, i.e. it’s a by-product. What do you mean by 'intrinsic worth' regarding humans?
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          I believe I several times clarified that “value” isn't an intrinsic quality in-and-of-itself but secondary to the survival instinct which is intrinsic, i.e. it’s a by-product. What do you mean by 'intrinsic worth' regarding humans?
                          Yes you changed your mind after I called you out. And human beings would have intrinsic worth if their value was not dependent on what they did or did not do. An innate characteristic.
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Yes you changed your mind after I called you out.
                            That's your assumption and you're wrong.

                            And human beings would have intrinsic worth if their value was not dependent on what they did or did not do. An innate characteristic.
                            Why, because humans are made in god's image?

                            Evidence please.
                            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                              That's your assumption and you're wrong.
                              Wrong Tass, you said that humans had intrinsic worth - that was wrong, you know it was wrong. And you did not "qualify" your claim until after I called you on it.


                              Why, because humans are made in god's image?
                              Did I say anything about being created in God's image?
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by seer View Post
                                Wrong Tass, you said that humans had intrinsic worth - that was wrong, you know it was wrong. And you did not "qualify" your claim until after I called you on it.
                                Sigh!

                                Did I say anything about being created in God's image?
                                Ah, so you don't think that humans have intrinsic worth because they're made in god's image. I agree, they don't. The worth we ascribe to our fellow humans is a by-product of our intrinsic need as a social species to maintain social cohesion. It's an evolved survival mechanism.
                                “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                                Comment

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