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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
    You’ve typically cherry-picked the definitions you erroneously think favour your point (such as it is). The definitions in full:

    “The doctrine that all things are subject to fate, or that they take place by inevitable necessity.”

    http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/word/fatalism

    “The doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable necessity, or determined in advance in such a way that human beings cannot change them.”

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fatalism?rdfrom=Fatalism

    I’ve never said that the outcomes of both Fatalism and Determinism are not inevitable. It’s the means of getting there are demonstrably different. I’ve said this many times, including in my previous post (#552). So what’s your argument?
    I did not cherry pick anything Tass, The doctrine that all things are subject to fate, or that they take place by inevitable necessity

    or that they take place by inevitable necessity That is determinism Tass and the very definition of fatalism. It doesn't matter how we get there everything is inevitable.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • Originally posted by seer View Post
      I did not cherry pick anything Tass, The doctrine that all things are subject to fate, or that they take place by inevitable necessity

      or that they take place by inevitable necessity That is determinism Tass and the very definition of fatalism. It doesn't matter how we get there everything is inevitable.
      The difference is, as has been explained endlessly by several people, whether or not we play a part in the process under the illusion of free will. With determinism we do, with fatalism we don't. In short, in a determined universe a chimpanzee can choose his banana and you can choose what socks to wear; in a fatalistic universe you and the chimp would submit yourselves to your fate with quick chorus of “que sera sera”.

      More to the point, there’s no viable alternative to determinism. Your preferred Libertarian Free Will is logically incoherent, because it eliminates causation. And the notion of events without causes is logical nonsense. Even if Libertarian Free Will was miraculously implanted by a deity it’s still logically incoherent given that the universe is governed by the fixed laws and constants of nature.

      Thus, for your LFW scenario to function these laws would have to be capricious, unreliable and able to be overturned...this would render all forms of science and technology useless. But science is far from useless. We can put a man on the moon, plus do many other things in science based upon the constancy of the natural laws. So we know from experience that these laws are not chaotic and can be consistently relied upon.
      Last edited by Tassman; 12-18-2015, 10:55 PM.
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
        The difference is, as has been explained endlessly by several people, whether or not we play a part in the process under the illusion of free will. With determinism we do, with fatalism we don't. In short, in a determined universe a chimpanzee can choose his banana and you can choose what socks to wear; in a fatalistic universe you and the chimp would submit yourselves to your fate with quick chorus of “que sera sera”.
        Nonsense Tass, and that is what you refuse to admit. Fatalism does NOT ONLY mean that we submit to fate, it ALSO, means by definition, that all things take place by inevitable necessity. And that is your determinism, and that is what your believe. You are a fatalist bro, wear it with pride!
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
          The difference is, as has been explained endlessly by several people, whether or not we play a part in the process under the illusion of free will. With determinism we do, with fatalism we don't. In short, in a determined universe a chimpanzee can choose his banana and you can choose what socks to wear; in a fatalistic universe you and the chimp would submit yourselves to your fate with quick chorus of “que sera sera”.
          But despite the name we give it, determinism or fatalism, we play a part in either case Tazz, but the part we play in a determined world, afaics, would still be fatalistic. Its kind of like the block universe, the B-theory of time, in which the past and future are just as real as the present where we are not making the future with our choices, we are only experiencing them as mental states as those states are positioned along the time line. The only difference with A-theory in a determined world, in a world where free will is an illusion, that I can see, is that though our futures do not yet exist, they are still determined. If the choices we make are not determined by us, then in what sense are they not fatalistic with respect to us?
          In the orbit of the planets analogy for instance, what difference does it make if the moon "eternally exists" at every position along the time line of its orbit, or if, due to the causal stream, "it will exist" at those very positions in the future. Are not both scenarios fatalistic. Its true that the moon doesn't make choices, but niether do we in a determined world. Choice, as you say, like free will, is just an illusion. No?

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          • Originally posted by JimL View Post
            But despite the name we give it, determinism or fatalism, we play a part in either case Tazz, but the part we play in a determined world, afaics, would still be fatalistic. Its kind of like the block universe, the B-theory of time, in which the past and future are just as real as the present where we are not making the future with our choices, we are only experiencing them as mental states as those states are positioned along the time line. The only difference with A-theory in a determined world, in a world where free will is an illusion, that I can see, is that though our futures do not yet exist, they are still determined. If the choices we make are not determined by us, then in what sense are they not fatalistic with respect to us?
            In the orbit of the planets analogy for instance, what difference does it make if the moon "eternally exists" at every position along the time line of its orbit, or if, due to the causal stream, "it will exist" at those very positions in the future. Are not both scenarios fatalistic. Its true that the moon doesn't make choices, but niether do we in a determined world. Choice, as you say, like free will, is just an illusion. No?
            …yes free will is an illusion but, unlike fatalism, the choices we make have an effect in the material world and the material world affects our choices in return...in a loop effect. This is not a violation of causality, it's just another kind of cause. The chimpanzee may be determined to choose a specific banana but he makes his choice and gets his preferred banana nevertheless…it’s a part of the rich tapestry of the universe.

            Conversely Libertarian Free Will is utterly incoherent.
            Last edited by Tassman; 12-19-2015, 11:24 PM.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by seer View Post
              Nonsense Tass, and that is what you refuse to admit. Fatalism does NOT ONLY mean that we submit to fate, it ALSO, means by definition, that all things take place by inevitable necessity. And that is your determinism, and that is what your believe. You are a fatalist bro, wear it with pride!
              Not good on nuance are you seer? No one’s denied that ultimately everything’s is determined. It couldn’t be otherwise in a determined universe

              More to the point, there’s no viable alternative to determinism. Your preferred Libertarian Free Will is logically incoherent, because it eliminates causation. And the notion of events without causes is logical nonsense. Even if Libertarian Free Will was miraculously implanted by a deity it’s still logically incoherent given that the universe is governed by the fixed laws and constants of nature.

              Thus, for your LFW scenario to function these laws would have to be capricious, unreliable and able to be overturned...this would render all forms of science and technology useless. But science is far from useless. We can put a man on the moon, plus do many other things in science based upon the constancy of the natural laws. So we know from experience that these laws are not chaotic and can be consistently relied upon.

              In short, your scenario cannot work. It’s logical nonsense. The world’s still waiting for you to support your incoherent position. You demand answers from others but provide nothing to support your own logically incoherent position. Presumably, you're unable to.
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Not good on nuance are you seer? No one’s denied that ultimately everything’s is determined. It couldn’t be otherwise in a determined universe
                And you are not good at clear definitions, so we are even.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  …yes free will is an illusion but, unlike fatalism, the choices we make have an effect in the material world and the material world affects our choices in return...in a loop effect. This is not a violation of causality, it's just another kind of cause. The chimpanzee may be determined to choose a specific banana but he makes his choice and gets his preferred banana nevertheless…it’s a part of the rich tapestry of the universe.
                  But, the choices would have an effect, the same effect in either case, would they not? I mean, just calling them choices doesn't change the fatalistic nature of those choices.
                  Conversely Libertarian Free Will is utterly incoherent.
                  I agree. But I am not convinced as of yet that the brain is a completely determined. One can change their mind for instance.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by seer View Post
                    And you are not good at clear definitions, so we are even.
                    Once again, your preferred option of Libertarian Free Will is logically incoherent, because it eliminates causation and events without causes are logical nonsense. Even if, hypothetically, Libertarian Free Will was miraculously implanted by a deity it’s still logical nonsense given that the universe is governed by the fixed laws and constants of nature. In short, your scenario cannot possibly work. I'm still waiting for you to support your logically incoherent position.
                    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                      But, the choices would have an effect, the same effect in either case, would they not? I mean, just calling them choices doesn't change the fatalistic nature of those choices.
                      The end result is still a deterministic universe, but ever since life evolved and living things began to make choices the causal interaction of such choices has resulted in a different sort of determined universe than a mere fatalistic one, i.e. where one can do nothing other than to submit to fate come what may.

                      I agree. But I am not convinced as of yet that the brain is a completely determined. One can change their mind for instance.
                      Well if there is any argument for limited free will this is area that compatibilists would focus on. They would argue that although “free will” cannot violate the laws of physics there are some limited areas where free-will choices can be made, because this is how we’ve evolved via natural selection to behave. We're social animals and to survive, social creatures like us instinctively tend to restrain selfish impulses in the interests of maintaining a cohesive community plus exhibit other "virtues", e.g. altruism and, as you say, "change our minds".

                      Some would argue that this ability to make choices and exercise self-control etc, counts as a limited form of genuine free-will. But I would argue that this is how social creatures like us have deterministically evolved to behave and our so-called free-will choices, whilst real enough in effecting change, are an illusion of free will. In short, whilst we live in a determined universe, there's more flexibility than in a fatalistic universe.
                      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                      Comment

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