Why ask for things in prayer?

[familyof6]

I have been curious of something, and this is the only place I can get the opinion of several religious people.

If I understand correctly, part of the reason to pray is to thank god and to praise him. That part makes sense to me. The part I don't understand is why some people ask for things in prayer. From what Christians I know have told me, and from what I've read on this board, god is all-knowing and the future is pre-determined. If the future is pre-determined, why would someone bother to ask for something from god in a prayer? Do they think that god is going to alter pre-determined events to answer their prayer?

Thank you for any input on this.

YEA! It's Friday!

[Crow]

I have been curious of something, and this is the only place I can get the opinion of several religious people.

If I understand correctly, part of the reason to pray is to thank god and to praise him. That part makes sense to me. The part I don't understand is why some people ask for things in prayer. From what Christians I know have told me, and from what I've read on this board, god is all-knowing and the future is pre-determined. If the future is pre-determined, why would someone bother to ask for something from god in a prayer? Do they think that god is going to alter pre-determined events to answer their prayer?

Thank you for any input on this.

YEA! It's Friday!

There are differing beliefs on whether or not the future is predetermined.

Some believe that it is. Those of us who are OV do not. When I pray, I'm not asking God to alter pre-determined events because I believe that the future is not entirely written in stone.

[familyof6]

Thanks for the reply. What is 'open view'? I've never heard of that until I started reading on this site. I guess there's a lot I need to learn!

[James Peter]

Again I'm pretty much an OVT now but I will agree with you that if the future is predetermined then prayer (in the sense of petition) is pretty pointless. Then again in hardline determinism everything is pretty pointless.

[Crow]

Thanks for the reply. What is 'open view'? I've never heard of that until I started reading on this site. I guess there's a lot I need to learn!

Open View Theology holds that God has not predestined the entire future and that God permits mankind to make freewill choices. Here's a link to an explaination. If you google, you'll get plenty of results, pro and con.

http://www.opentheism.info/

[Zguy28]

Prayers of petition or intercession are not a wishlist for God.

1 John 2:6

Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

This Scripture, which I feel is so often ignored by Christians also applies to prayer.

How did Jesus pray?

Matthew 26:36-46

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

We can see a progression here. Even though Jesus petitiions the Father for something, He accepts His will. And through continued prayer, He becomes attuned to the Father's will in that matter. We should be the same in our prayers.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

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[Clete]

I have been curious of something, and this is the only place I can get the opinion of several religious people.

If I understand correctly, part of the reason to pray is to thank god and to praise him. That part makes sense to me. The part I don't understand is why some people ask for things in prayer. From what Christians I know have told me, and from what I've read on this board, god is all-knowing and the future is pre-determined. If the future is pre-determined, why would someone bother to ask for something from god in a prayer? Do they think that god is going to alter pre-determined events to answer their prayer?

Thank you for any input on this.

YEA! It's Friday!

What a terrific question!

If the future is settled then prayer is meaningless as is love and everything else of a moral nature. Without the freedom to choose, all such things are meaningless.

What you call "Christianity" is more accurately called "Calvinism" - not entirely the same thing. In fact, because of this exact problem I would say with confidence that Christianity and Calvinism are mutually exclusive because if love is meaningless, which it is if the future is already determined, then so is Christianity because love is the whole point of the Christian belief system.

Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Resting in Him,
Clete

[familyof6]

Prayers of petition or intercession are not a wishlist for God.

1 John 2:6

Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

This Scripture, which I feel is so often ignored by Christians also applies to prayer.

How did Jesus pray?

Matthew 26:36-46

36Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."

39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

40Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

43When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"

We can see a progression here. Even though Jesus petitiions the Father for something, He accepts His will. And through continued prayer, He becomes attuned to the Father's will in that matter. We should be the same in our prayers.

What about these passages?

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus says:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.

In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.

I think these passages make the process of begging for things through prayer crystal clear. Of course you'll only hear from the statistical norm that their prayers were "answered".

[Clete]

What about these passages?

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:
For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus says:
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

In Mark 9:23:
All things are possible to him who believes.

In Luke 1:37:
For with God nothing will be impossible.

I think these passages make the process of begging for things through prayer crystal clear. Of course you'll only hear from the statistical norm that their prayers were "answered".

Nearly everything you quoted was written too for and about the believing members of the nation of Israel and so you are quite right, the vast majority of prayers lifted by believers today are not answered but not because God doesn't exist but because those praying aren't praying according to the Gospel of the Mystery, which was hidden in God from the beginning and revealed to and exclusively through the Apostle Paul.

Now there are tons of Christians on this site and elsewhere who will have a cow when they read what I just wrote but if you are wanting rational answers to your questions then dispensational theology is the only place you are going to get them. The Bible is full of countless contradictions and confusion otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Zguy28]

What about these passages?

I think these passages make the process of begging for things through prayer crystal clear. Of course you'll only hear from the statistical norm that their prayers were "answered".

What about them? You're just proving my point.
Take for instance what you quoted from James.

In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:
And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Do you think a righteous (definition of righteous is: right with God) man would ask God for a new Humvee or a Cadillac or anything selfish like that? No. A righteous man prays according to God's will.

Or

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:
Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Do you suppose that if Jesus is in their midst, they must be doing something right(eous)?

The same goes for this passage you quoted.

Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:
Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Ask, seek, knock. Seek what? God of course!
"Good things to those who ask Him!" What is good? It ain't wealth and prosperity or physical health, despite what is preached today on TV; just ask Paul of Tarsis about his thorn when you see him.

[zorathruster]

god is all-knowing and the future is pre-determined. If the future is pre-determined, why would someone bother to ask for something from god in a prayer? Do they think that god is going to alter pre-determined events to answer their prayer?

If a God supposedly knows the future, it must be predetermined. If someone were to do something different than what is predetermined, then God could not know which choice was to be made and therefore would not know the future. Hence if the future is known by God it must follow sequentially as it is known therefore it is predetermined.

However, if a God does not know the future, it is possible that freedom exists and humans are able to make true choices. Predetermination is not true in this case. Bad side to this: God doesn't know the future and cannot see what will happen. All prophecy is mute and false.

[zorathruster]

praying according to the Gospel of the Mystery, which was hidden in God from the beginning

The Bible is full of countless contradictions and confusion otherwise.

Clete

Let me get this: You are invoking the "Gospel of Mystery" to explain a mystery? This is perfect, mind if I quote you from now on? Just flipping through my Bible I'm fairly certain it is not one of the top 4 Gospels at least in Christianity. Which religion recognizes the "Gospel of Mystery"?

Interesting! Mysterious. Since we are making up Gospels, I want to put in my two cents for the Gospel of Scrooge. I've always liked that story, you know rebirth and redemption. I just always thought it would make a good Gospel and now I see we can make them up at will, it only follows.

Could you please site any passage in the bible or Quoran or Latter day Saints or any other silly holy book that refers to the Gospel of Mystery?

Z

[Gaytheist]

On an only slightly related note, and from a different perspective, scientific research seems to indicate that while prayer benefits the individual praying in a number of ways, it does not benefit a third party (or event) prayed for. That is, praying to God for X to happen outside yourself appears to have no effect on whether X will happen, which in my book is a good reason not to do it.

[familyof6]

On an only slightly related note, and from a different perspective, scientific research seems to indicate that while prayer benefits the individual praying in a number of ways, it does not benefit a third party (or event) prayed for. That is, praying to God for X to happen outside yourself appears to have no effect on whether X will happen, which in my book is a good reason not to do it.

You are absolutely correct. In fact, a study of heart patients, some receiving prayer, some not, was recently done. The article can be examined here. The only reason personal prayer is sometimes successful is because it's just like any other kind of relaxation therapy. Some like yoga, meditation, working out, singing, writing, and some talk to themselves and work things out in their minds through prayer. There have also been studies that show people who have a general positive attitude live longer and are sick less.