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Thread: The "Emergent Church" -- What exactly is it?

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Here, I think Jesus is referring to the Pharisaic and lawyerly penchant for making "hedge laws" and punishing infraction of those as if one were breaking a Mosaic law (which would require sacrifice for atonement). Instead of legally requiring atonement for every possible infraction, God looks at intent. If the intent was not to break the law, then we should apply mercy instead of requiring sacrifice.
    I have to admit that I had never heard of "hedge laws" before you brought it up. Since then I have read an article of two about it, but I would rather hear what you think.

    Could you explain what they are and how Jews would use them?

    Thanks.

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    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Yes, it does, but Brian McLaren is a Pastor or former Pastor. Surely he would know how what the cited Scriptures meant?
    It appears McLaren does not believe in blood atonement. I wonder what he thinks the Gospel is?
    I admit that while I knew the name, I had to go look up who Brian McLaren is. After reading his website, he seems to be wanting to reinvent Christianity in his image. At this point, its no wonder he is finding new meanings in Scripture. He has to since he pretty much discarded the 2000 years of teaching. The result is as OBP says: "Looks like a textbook case of eisegesis".
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  3. Amen JB DoulosChristou amen'd this post.
  4. #53
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    I have to admit that I had never heard of "hedge laws" before you brought it up. Since then I have read an article of two about it, but I would rather hear what you think.

    Could you explain what they are and how Jews would use them?

    Thanks.
    The Jews use them as a way to ensure that they don't actually break a Mosaic commandment. The law commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath - so people would split hairs about what constituted work. For example, Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath because he made clay by spitting in the dirt - that constituted work.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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  5. #54
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    I just looked at McLaren's actual argument. First, let me say that I often find him helpful, but he's not a great exegete. His specific comments on the passage don't hold water. But he also looks at the broader question, and there I think he's right. At least in the version in John, Jesus really is attacking the whole Temple system, not just trying to correct an abuse. John is organized into a series of episodes, each of which shows Jesus replacing key aspects of Judaism. In this episode, when challenged on his authority, Jesus say that the Temple will be destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days. He is really saying that his death and resurrection replace the system of sacrifices in the Temple.

    Your assessment of this will depend upon whether you think the role of the Temple was controversial, with the prophets, and particularly John, providing an approach that's opposed to it. In that case you'll be more likely to accept the idea that Jesus' offer of forgiveness was ultimately an attack on the system of forgiveness associated with the Temple.

    Whether McLaren is right on the broader implications depends upon your understanding of the atonement. I think he's right on that, but showing that requires exegesis of a bunch of texts, which probably doesn't make sense here.
    Last edited by hedrick; 09-30-2017 at 03:34 PM.

  6. #55
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    The "Emergent Church" -- What exactly is it?
    Emerging neo-old heresy, also unScriptural crap.
    "It's easier to say that it's not our [US Democrats'] fault, but Russians' fault, say that they interfered with the elections... It reminds me of anti-Semitism, when everything is Jews' fault. Someone is a mutt, can't do a thing, but the Jews are to be blamed. But we know where such an attitude leads to, it never ends well"


  7. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    The Jews use them as a way to ensure that they don't actually break a Mosaic commandment. The law commanded that no work be done on the Sabbath - so people would split hairs about what constituted work. For example, Jesus was accused of breaking the sabbath because he made clay by spitting in the dirt - that constituted work.
    Thank You.

  8. #57
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedrick View Post
    Yup. People have accused him of eisegesis, but I'm not sure on what basis. The passages do say what he says.

    I think the reason people hesitate to read them in the obvious way is that the OT in other places sets up the sacrifices that the prophets says aren't necessary. So if God didn't require sacrifice, why did Lev describe all of those sacrifices? My suggestion is that sacrifice wasn't needed for forgiveness, but was rather a kind of sacrament: it made visible and reinforced the person's commitment to repentance.

    The underlying issue is the atonement. If you don't think sacrifice is necessary for forgiveness, you'll tend to prefer older models of the atonement. The big argument for penal substitution is that sacrifice is needed for forgiveness. If that isn't true, some of the alternative understandings of the atonement may be better.
    Hebrews is pretty clear that blood sacrifice is necessary, but that Jesus fulfilled that function in a far better way than animal sacrifice ever did.

    Hebrews 9:21-23New International Version (NIV)

    21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

    23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
    Safka, you are NOT "unknown", you were loved by many, and you will not be forgotten. I will always remember you Puginator.


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