Originally posted by 37818
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This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
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Is fear a good reason to become Christian
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Originally posted by Jichard View PostFear of death does not entail any of the beliefs you mentioned. I've discussed that elsewhere on this thread:
Furthermore, if a human already believes that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., then they're almost certainly already a Christian. So fear of death would not provide them with some reason to become a Christian, since they already are a Christian.
Your final paragraph is mistaken. You don't understand what it means to 'become a Christian'. I think I went over this in the Faith without Reason thread. A person who is a Christian is not just a person who comes to a mere intellectual acceptance of Christianity (i.e. God exists, Jesus died for sins, etc..). It is a person who has warrant for the truth of Christianity. This would include the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't want to hijack your thread and turn it into something else, so I will just end there. Thanks
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Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View PostAll you have shown here is that humans can fear death for more than one reason. I never said humans can't fear death on grounds other than Christian beliefs. For the person who fears divine punishment and then becomes a Christian they would include the existence of God in that reason...
Once again, fear of divine punishment is not a good reason to become a Christian, anymore than fear of ghosts isa good reason to believe that ghosts exist. One can fear X, even if one has no good reason to think that X exists and even if one does not think that X exists.
Your final paragraph is mistaken.
You don't understand what it means to 'become a Christian'. I think I went over this in the Faith without Reason thread.
A person who is a Christian is not just a person who comes to a mere intellectual acceptance of Christianity (i.e. God exists, Jesus died for sins, etc..). It is a person who has warrant for the truth of Christianity. This would include the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Originally posted by Jichard View PostIntellectual acceptance of Christianity is a pre-requisite for being Christian, and it's also a pre-requisite for accepting Jesus as one's savior. For example, one cannot accept Jesus as one's savior (on traditional, mainstream Christianity), if one does not have the intellectual belief that Jesus is God.
But if you really doubt the following claim of mine:then feel free to point out some humans beings who believe that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., and aren't Christian. You'll find almost no such people.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI don't worry about Hell at all - I'm not going there. And I'm focused on showing the Truth to the lost, so they can go to Heaven. I know it may sound simplistic, but I would rather love people to Heaven than scare them out of Hell. I'm responsible for "telling the Good News", and that's (at the heart) Christ crucified, buried and risen again.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Jesus talked about hell more than any other topic in the new testament. I would also say fear of divine punishment is the primary reason people become Christians. For instance, when a person admits they are a sinner to a holy and righteous God there is only fear to be found in that person until they are perfected in love.
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. (1 John 4:18-19 ESV)Last edited by ShrimpMaster; 09-10-2015, 10:09 AM.
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Originally posted by Jichard View PostFurthermore, if a human already believes that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., then they're almost certainly already a Christian. So fear of death would not provide them with some reason to become a Christian, since they already are a Christian
then feel free to point out some humans beings who believe that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., and aren't Christian. You'll find almost no such people.
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? (James 2:19-20 ESV)
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThis is in my opinion a good Christianity and like the one I was brought up with.
I also reject the concept of Hell and those who preach it.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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So I'm curious: Is fear of death a good reason not to jump off a tall building?
I'm particularly interested in what Jichard has to say on this.Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYou must have a pretty skinny Bible, since you apparently just toss out the parts you don't like.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostAnd why not toss out the parts I don’t like?
If we don’t judge the book and the god it represents then we are slaves to someone else’s god.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCause you're not smarter than God.
Some of us are slaves to Christ, and some of us are slaves to sin.“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post...except that there's no substantive evidence such an entity exists.
Well, given that 'sin' is defined as "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God", sin is a meaningless concept for atheists.“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostCause you're not smarter than God.
Some of us are slaves to Christ, and some of us are slaves to sin.
What would we make of all the early Christian writings if the several canons (wikipedia compares 10) had not been prescribed for us? The gods we worship are the gods prescribed for us by Jerome (?) and others. We, or you, worship Jerome’s god.
I think we are entitled, even morally obliged, to review the evidence from time to time; so we are not forever clinging to someone else’s coat tails and mistakenly enthralled to a false god.“I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
“And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
“not all there” - you know who you are
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Originally posted by firstfloor View PostThe first thing to note CP is that your reply is more like chanting to ward off evil spirits than it is sensible discussion.
This is very typical of Christian responses when faced with anything that is slightly against the grain but let’s take a closer look.
What would we make of all the early Christian writings if the several canons (wikipedia compares 10) had not been prescribed for us? The gods we worship are the gods prescribed for us by Jerome (?) and others. We, or you, worship Jerome’s god.
I think we are entitled, even morally obliged, to review the evidence from time to time; so we are not forever clinging to someone else’s coat tails and mistakenly enthralled to a false god.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Tassman View Post...except that there's no substantive evidence such an entity exists.
Well, given that 'sin' is defined as "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God", sin is a meaningless concept for atheists.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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