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Is fear a good reason to become Christian

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  • #31
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    The mere fear of death, no. But the reason for the fear of death which warrants believing something that is actually true.
    Which is my point. If one has evidence for thinking that the object of one's fear (ex: the Christian God) exists, then one has a reason for being Christian. Evidence, not fear, is what provides the reason.
    "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Jichard View Post
      Fear of death does not entail any of the beliefs you mentioned. I've discussed that elsewhere on this thread:

      Furthermore, if a human already believes that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., then they're almost certainly already a Christian. So fear of death would not provide them with some reason to become a Christian, since they already are a Christian.
      All you have shown here is that humans can fear death for more than one reason. I never said humans can't fear death on grounds other than Christian beliefs. For the person who fears divine punishment and then becomes a Christian they would include the existence of God in that reason...

      Your final paragraph is mistaken. You don't understand what it means to 'become a Christian'. I think I went over this in the Faith without Reason thread. A person who is a Christian is not just a person who comes to a mere intellectual acceptance of Christianity (i.e. God exists, Jesus died for sins, etc..). It is a person who has warrant for the truth of Christianity. This would include the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't want to hijack your thread and turn it into something else, so I will just end there. Thanks

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      • #33
        Originally posted by ShrimpMaster View Post
        All you have shown here is that humans can fear death for more than one reason. I never said humans can't fear death on grounds other than Christian beliefs. For the person who fears divine punishment and then becomes a Christian they would include the existence of God in that reason...
        First, fear of divine punishment is that same as fear of death, Just because can simulatenously have both fears, that does not mean that the two fears are the same. Since the question in my OP was about fear of death, not fear of divine punishment, I don't see how your reference to divine punishment in any way addresses my OP's question.

        Once again, fear of divine punishment is not a good reason to become a Christian, anymore than fear of ghosts isa good reason to believe that ghosts exist. One can fear X, even if one has no good reason to think that X exists and even if one does not think that X exists.

        Your final paragraph is mistaken.
        Not really.

        You don't understand what it means to 'become a Christian'. I think I went over this in the Faith without Reason thread.
        And you were just as wrong when you made that claim there, as you are when you make it here.

        A person who is a Christian is not just a person who comes to a mere intellectual acceptance of Christianity (i.e. God exists, Jesus died for sins, etc..). It is a person who has warrant for the truth of Christianity. This would include the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
        You're confusing necessary conditions with sufficient conditions. Again. I said that intellectual acceptance of Christianity was a necessary condition for being Christian, not a sufficient one:
        Originally posted by Jichard View Post
        Intellectual acceptance of Christianity is a pre-requisite for being Christian, and it's also a pre-requisite for accepting Jesus as one's savior. For example, one cannot accept Jesus as one's savior (on traditional, mainstream Christianity), if one does not have the intellectual belief that Jesus is God.

        But if you really doubt the following claim of mine:then feel free to point out some humans beings who believe that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., and aren't Christian. You'll find almost no such people.
        "Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they [denialists] employ and identifying them publicly for what they are."

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I don't worry about Hell at all - I'm not going there. And I'm focused on showing the Truth to the lost, so they can go to Heaven. I know it may sound simplistic, but I would rather love people to Heaven than scare them out of Hell. I'm responsible for "telling the Good News", and that's (at the heart) Christ crucified, buried and risen again.
          This is in my opinion a good Christianity and like the one I was brought up with. I also reject the concept of Hell and those who preach it.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

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          • #35
            Jesus talked about hell more than any other topic in the new testament. I would also say fear of divine punishment is the primary reason people become Christians. For instance, when a person admits they are a sinner to a holy and righteous God there is only fear to be found in that person until they are perfected in love.

            There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. We love because he first loved us. (1 John 4:18-19 ESV)
            Last edited by ShrimpMaster; 09-10-2015, 10:09 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Jichard View Post
              Furthermore, if a human already believes that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., then they're almost certainly already a Christian. So fear of death would not provide them with some reason to become a Christian, since they already are a Christian
              then feel free to point out some humans beings who believe that the Christian God exists, that the Christian God will punish sin, that they will face divine punishment from the Christian God, etc., and aren't Christian. You'll find almost no such people.
              That is easy. Worshipers of Satan. I think you could do a quick google search and figure that out. Try this thought experiment: it is possible for a person to believe God exists, Jesus is the divine Son of God, and they will face divine punishment, and openly rebel against God. Just because a person believes those things does not make them a Christian. This is further demonstrated in the book of James

              You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? (James 2:19-20 ESV)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                This is in my opinion a good Christianity and like the one I was brought up with.
                Good so far, but why do I suspect.....

                I also reject the concept of Hell and those who preach it.
                Well there ya have it! You must have a pretty skinny Bible, since you apparently just toss out the parts you don't like.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #38
                  So I'm curious: Is fear of death a good reason not to jump off a tall building?

                  I'm particularly interested in what Jichard has to say on this.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    You must have a pretty skinny Bible, since you apparently just toss out the parts you don't like.
                    And why not toss out the parts I don’t like? If we don’t judge the book and the god it represents then we are slaves to someone else’s god.
                    “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                    “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                    “not all there” - you know who you are

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                      And why not toss out the parts I don’t like?
                      Cause you're not smarter than God.

                      If we don’t judge the book and the god it represents then we are slaves to someone else’s god.
                      Some of us are slaves to Christ, and some of us are slaves to sin.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        Cause you're not smarter than God.
                        ...except that there's no substantive evidence such an entity exists.

                        Some of us are slaves to Christ, and some of us are slaves to sin.
                        Well, given that 'sin' is defined as "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God", sin is a meaningless concept for atheists.
                        “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                          ...except that there's no substantive evidence such an entity exists.
                          So you keep saying to us.



                          Well, given that 'sin' is defined as "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God", sin is a meaningless concept for atheists.
                          As well as secular morality is a meaningless concept to many theists.
                          “I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.” - C.S. Lewis

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Cause you're not smarter than God.
                            Some of us are slaves to Christ, and some of us are slaves to sin.
                            The first thing to note CP is that your reply is more like chanting to ward off evil spirits than it is sensible discussion. This is very typical of Christian responses when faced with anything that is slightly against the grain but let’s take a closer look.

                            What would we make of all the early Christian writings if the several canons (wikipedia compares 10) had not been prescribed for us? The gods we worship are the gods prescribed for us by Jerome (?) and others. We, or you, worship Jerome’s god.

                            I think we are entitled, even morally obliged, to review the evidence from time to time; so we are not forever clinging to someone else’s coat tails and mistakenly enthralled to a false god.
                            “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                            “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                            “not all there” - you know who you are

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                              The first thing to note CP is that your reply is more like chanting to ward off evil spirits than it is sensible discussion.
                              Naw - it's a summary of Apostle Paul's teaching, and not just a chant. It's something I live and believe.

                              This is very typical of Christian responses when faced with anything that is slightly against the grain but let’s take a closer look.
                              Sure

                              What would we make of all the early Christian writings if the several canons (wikipedia compares 10) had not been prescribed for us? The gods we worship are the gods prescribed for us by Jerome (?) and others. We, or you, worship Jerome’s god.
                              Apparently, Jerome got something right - should I abandon God because Jerome got it right?

                              I think we are entitled, even morally obliged, to review the evidence from time to time; so we are not forever clinging to someone else’s coat tails and mistakenly enthralled to a false god.
                              Well, I serve the Risen Savior, and He's real in my life. You will have to face Him one day, and it won't be a pretty sight.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                                ...except that there's no substantive evidence such an entity exists.
                                I'm satisfied, and it's my life.

                                Well, given that 'sin' is defined as "deliberate disobedience to the known will of God", sin is a meaningless concept for atheists.
                                In this life, yes.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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