do you think its moral?

[luv1another]

ok a question came up over supper at homegroup wednesday and the leader knows I am a mod on the board so he said maybe I could post the question and see what people say...

ok we were discussing spam in emails and one of them was a breast enlargement spam to which one of my male friends had commented about maybe replying and telling them that wouldnt be good because they might not get much work done if they had that

anyway that lead to one of the ladies saying she had seen on a TV show in canada where two guys who were flat mates(you know not gay but sharing a house or whatever) had dared the room mate to get a breast implant and keep it a year and he would pay him $10 000...well apparently the guy looked around and hardly anyone would do it...he found someone and had it done...when the year was up he said he wanted to keep them...

anyway this brought up the question what about sex change is that moral or immoral...do we agree or disagree with it... she was saying if we thought the guy getting the breast implants was ok why isnt it ok for someone to have a sex change? so what do you guys think?
is it moral or immoral?

how do you come to your conclusions?

[Ninjalan]

Besides a possible argument from Deuteronomy 22:5, I can't personally think of anything Scriptural that says it is immoral.

I can say that in my own personal opinon I find it strange, unneccesary, and very likely a stumbling block to other Christians.

[kneel2hymn]

I'm not so sure the two are related.

A man taking a bet to have the pectoral tissue augmented but keeping his male organs is not really the same as a sex change. It really is just a creative way of getting 10k out of his friends. Even if he keeps the enlargements he is still a man.

While on the other hand a sex change involves a great deal more. Including therapy, hormones, numerous surgeries and social isolation. A number of older sex change recipients have been shown to involve people who a doctor or parent chose the gender they grew up with. Due to being born with both. Are they wrong to change it or did someone make a mistake when they were babies?

Sex changes are a VERY complex issue but I'm not sure it is a moral one. The bible forbids a man to wear womens clothing but by our modern standards Jesus wore dresses. (You can call it a robe but we all know what you would think if you saw a man walking down the street in one today.) The bible really doesn't address the issue of actual sex changes.

[Ninjalan]

Perhaps it wasn't really heard of in the ancient world. I know they had eunuchs, but it was hardly the same thing.

[jason]

The problem with sex change surgery is that it implies something about human beings that is false. Those that seek after such surgury are trying to deny their essential nature and they have been misled into thinking that surigcal mutilation will somehow fix their problem.

But this seems to be the moral equivalent of helping an alcholic by buying him a bottle of rum.

If that is moral then so is the other IMO.

Jason

[Duder]

The problem with sex change surgery is that it implies something about human beings that is false. Those that seek after such surgury are trying to deny their essential nature and they have been misled into thinking that surigcal mutilation will somehow fix their problem.

But this seems to be the moral equivalent of helping an alcholic by buying him a bottle of rum.

If that is moral then so is the other IMO.

Jason

Are you certain that gender is a factor in a person's essential nature?

There does not exist among you Jew or Greek, slave or freeman, male or female. All are one in Christ Jesus.

[Crow]

ok a question came up over supper at homegroup wednesday and the leader knows I am a mod on the board so he said maybe I could post the question and see what people say...

ok we were discussing spam in emails and one of them was a breast enlargement spam to which one of my male friends had commented about maybe replying and telling them that wouldnt be good because they might not get much work done if they had that

anyway that lead to one of the ladies saying she had seen on a TV show in canada where two guys who were flat mates(you know not gay but sharing a house or whatever) had dared the room mate to get a breast implant and keep it a year and he would pay him $10 000...well apparently the guy looked around and hardly anyone would do it...he found someone and had it done...when the year was up he said he wanted to keep them...

anyway this brought up the question what about sex change is that moral or immoral...do we agree or disagree with it... she was saying if we thought the guy getting the breast implants was ok why isnt it ok for someone to have a sex change? so what do you guys think?
is it moral or immoral?

how do you come to your conclusions?

First of all, let me say that a guy getting breast implants is acting incredibly stupid.

A person who is male and alters his external appearance to appear to be female is a mutilated guy trying to appear as a female. If he has a "relationship" with another guy, what's the difference between an intact male and an altered one having a relationship with another guy? It's still a homosexual relationship, so I think that such is immoral.

Wearing wedding rings does not make an unmarried couple married, nor does registering as "Mr and Mrs Smith" at the motel--it's still sexual immorality by Christian standards. I don't believe that altering the appearance of one's body makes one a member of the opposite sex anymore so than dressing up in drag makes a guy a woman. It's just sadder and less reversible.

[Zguy28]

We are each created by God in His image (Gen 1:27). We are uniquely formed in the womb by the Lord (Psalm 139:13,Isa 44:24, Jer 1:15). He made us male and female. Who are we to change what God has wrought?

To do it for selfish or vain reasons, such as "because I want to become a woman" is immoral. It will result in sexual immorality (Lev 20:13, Rom 1:27).

[Zguy28]

Are you certain that gender is a factor in a person's essential nature?

Yes I do, as long as we are in our physical, corruptible body. Our incorruptible bodies at the resurrection are another story, because we just won't care about that stuff, will we?

There does not exist among you Jew or Greek, slave or freeman, male or female. All are one in Christ Jesus.

Do you think that supersedes Leviticus 20:13 or Romans 1?

[James Peter]

Yes I do, as long as we are in our physical, corruptible body. Our incorruptible bodies at the resurrection are another story, because we just won't care about that stuff, will we?

Do you think that supersedes Leviticus 20:13 or Romans 1?

And it is "male and (kai) female" rather than "male or female". There is probably quite a significant difference in the change between 'or' and 'and' for the last pairing.

[jason]

Are you certain that gender is a factor in a person's essential nature?

The notion of gender as distinct from sex, is a confused modern fiction.

There does not exist among you Jew or Greek, slave or freeman, male or female. All are one in Christ Jesus.

It is concerning that you would abuse the text and take it out of context like that.

Jason

[jason]

Do you think that supersedes Leviticus 20:13 or Romans 1?

I don't really think Duder cares particularly much about coherence or truth.

He just embraces odd notions and them prooftexts them.

You'll notice that he didn't actually engage with my argument, but just offered this irrelevant distraction.

Jason

[Duder]

The notion of gender as distinct from sex, is a confused modern fiction.


It is concerning that you would abuse the text and take it out of context like that.

Jason

Explain

[themuzicman]

1) There's no such things as 'sex change surgury'. People alter their appearance and take hormone therapy to make themselves appear to be something that they are not. IMHO, that's bearing false witness.

2) If a guy wants breast implants, but still maintains his male persona, I would consider that to be weird, and maybe something to be investigated via counseling. I don't consider being under the New Covenant as being under the law, but I do think that we, as Christians, are under a mandate to love God and others, preach the gospel, work to bring spiritual maturity to those who are saved, help the poor, sick, widows, etc. And I don't see how getting breast implants, especially for a guy, aids in that pursuit. If you did so in order to reach a group of individuals that could not be reached without them, then one might consider that course. Otherside...

Michael

[Piebald]

Mutilating or altering your body is very serious. It would be wrong to do it unless you had a very good reason to do it. A man who gives himself feminine attributes has seriously altered his body (he has purposely given himself gynecomastia) and I can't imagine a good, feasible reason to do such a thing.