CHRISTIAN ZIONISM aka JUDAISTIC CHRISTIANITY IS A RETREAT INTO OBLIVION

[Jude3b]

THE THEOLOGY OF DISPENSATIONALISM which has led to Christian Zionism, Messianic Judaism and the Heretical Jewish Roots movement seems to be ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

Isn't it true that Biblically speaking, a Jew is someone who is covenanted into the people of the Jews by circumcision?

Than why today, are the Jews all those who claim to be Jews, or those who are covenanted with the Jews? Including Christian Zionists who have not been circumcised?

To start this thread, I'll give my opinion on a few of my beliefs:

My opinion: Christians see Jews, Moslems, Pagans, Hindus, whatever group as those who have rejected Christ as Messiah, and who have opposed the true faith of Christianity.

My 2nd opinion: Within Christianity, over the years, a peculiar theology known as "dispensationalism" arose. It was prpagated by G. Cambell Morgan, John Nelson Darby and even the Hal Lindsey's and even Jerry Falwell's of today. It has become wide spread today and is currently a popular belief among some Christian groups.

My 3rd opinion: The Bible teaches that Christians are the people of God and that the Jews of today, like all lost people are apostate and under the wrath and judgment of God.

My fourth opinion: Christians should minister to Jews and attempt to win them to Christ. That is, Christians should try to convert lost Jews to Christianity and show them all the kindness of God as fellow human beings. But Christians must understand that all unsaved Jews are not the people of God today and unless they repent and receive Christ, they never will be the people of God again. This would be the true and historic position of Christianity.

My fifth opinion is that today there is a new heresy that is springing up. A new group - Christian Zionists, nearly all of whom were Christians and not Jews, go around teaching Heretical Jewish Roots doctrines - and they join Messianic Judaism. They become enemies of the Gospel and preach an Anti-Christian theology.

My POINT: I am not expressing opposition to Messianic Judaism in this thread. I share the great Joy of the Lord everytime a lost Jew comes to Christ and is saved. Praise God! Messianic Synagogues are ok - if they want to have them to maintain their culture, etc. Likewise, I feel the same about Spanish or Korean groups who have their own congregations and worship in their native tongue. Thats all ok. No problem.

The problem that I see is that Christian Zionism has become Anti-Christian and is presenting Messianic Judaism as an alternative to historic Biblical Christianity. I believe this is due to the erroneous dispensational views that they have learned from the Hal Lindsey's, the John Nelson Darby's, etc.

Survey and Opinion Questions for those who would like to participate in this thread:

1) If you are a Messianic Jew today, please tell us if you were a Gentile Christian, a lost Pagan, or were you Jewish before you became a Messianic Jew?

2) If you are a Messianic Jew, but a former Christian, tell us who are the teachers who have told you that Biblical Christianity has departed from its Biblical roots as found in the first century A.D.? What are their names and the names of their organizations/ministries??

3) As a Messianic Jew, what do you believe are the Biblical errors of the Christian church? Please list the errors as you understand them and quote the Bible verse being violated.

4) Do you believe that the Christian Zionists coming into Messianic Judaism are Anti-Christians? Why or why not? If yes, is that of God?

[mitzi]

THE THEOLOGY OF DISPENSATIONALISM which has led to Christian Zionism, Messianic Judaism and the Heretical Jewish Roots movement seems to be ANTI-CHRISTIAN.

Isn't it true that Biblically speaking, a Jew is someone who is covenanted into the people of the Jews by circumcision?

Than why today, are the Jews all those who claim to be Jews, or those who are covenanted with the Jews? Including Christian Zionists who have not been circumcised?

To start this thread, I'll give my opinion on a few of my beliefs:

My opinion: Christians see Jews, Moslems, Pagans, Hindus, whatever group as those who have rejected Christ as Messiah, and who have opposed the true faith of Christianity.

My 2nd opinion: Within Christianity, over the years, a peculiar theology known as "dispensationalism" arose. It was prpagated by G. Cambell Morgan, John Nelson Darby and even the Hal Lindsey's and even Jerry Falwell's of today. It has become wide spread today and is currently a popular belief among some Christian groups.

My 3rd opinion: The Bible teaches that Christians are the people of God and that the Jews of today, like all lost people are apostate and under the wrath and judgment of God.

My fourth opinion: Christians should minister to Jews and attempt to win them to Christ. That is, Christians should try to convert lost Jews to Christianity and show them all the kindness of God as fellow human beings. But Christians must understand that all unsaved Jews are not the people of God today and unless they repent and receive Christ, they never will be the people of God again. This would be the true and historic position of Christianity.

My fifth opinion is that today there is a new heresy that is springing up. A new group - Christian Zionists, nearly all of whom were Christians and not Jews, go around teaching Heretical Jewish Roots doctrines - and they join Messianic Judaism. They become enemies of the Gospel and preach an Anti-Christian theology.

My POINT: I am not expressing opposition to Messianic Judaism in this thread. I share the great Joy of the Lord everytime a lost Jew comes to Christ and is saved. Praise God! Messianic Synagogues are ok - if they want to have them to maintain their culture, etc. Likewise, I feel the same about Spanish or Korean groups who have their own congregations and worship in their native tongue. Thats all ok. No problem.

The problem that I see is that Christian Zionism has become Anti-Christian and is presenting Messianic Judaism as an alternative to historic Biblical Christianity. I believe this is due to the erroneous dispensational views that they have learned from the Hal Lindsey's, the John Nelson Darby's, etc.

Survey and Opinion Questions for those who would like to participate in this thread:

1) If you are a Messianic Jew today, please tell us if you were a Gentile Christian, a lost Pagan, or were you Jewish before you became a Messianic Jew?

2) If you are a Messianic Jew, but a former Christian, tell us who are the teachers who have told you that Biblical Christianity has departed from its Biblical roots as found in the first century A.D.? What are their names and the names of their organizations/ministries??

3) As a Messianic Jew, what do you believe are the Biblical errors of the Christian church? Please list the errors as you understand them and quote the Bible verse being violated.

4) Do you believe that the Christian Zionists coming into Messianic Judaism are Anti-Christians? Why or why not? If yes, is that of God?

Jude3b:

I realize that your questions, as direct as they may be, are to provide help in reaching out to the source of the relationship problems between Christian, Messianic Judaism & Zionist groups. However, when you’re referring to Zionist Christians, which I will define their role, are those members of several Christian organizations such as Standing with Israel (very good website). These members are a continual help & support system to many Jewish families & to the State of Israel. These so called Anti Christianism (which they are “not”) are there to defend their right as “Righteous Gentiles” from around the world. Personally I know of one gentleman who’s given support to both Israel and to the Jewish people is astonishing and he belongs to the Christian Church in Tennessee (Baptist) I believe.

[mitzi]

My fourth opinion: Christians should minister to Jews and attempt to win them to Christ. That is, Christians should try to convert lost Jews to Christianity and show them all the kindness of God as fellow human beings. But Christians must understand that all unsaved Jews are not the people of God today and unless they repent and receive Christ, they never will be the people of God again. This would be the true and historic position of Christianity.


2nd: In my own opinion:

The responsibility of any Christian would be and should be to maintain a healthy relationship with G-d, to protection the rights and freedoms of other religious denominations, which are country supports & allows (in other words: promoting social & religious justice) responsibilities to other Christians & those that need our financial/emotional support including those who need to hear the word of G-d and are unable to find fellowship within their community (the outcast of our communities-which we can not neglect).

I feel that we are so wrapped up in conversions within the Jewish community that we have forgotten our own community. The source of healing within our community is needed desperately. Some of the members of the Christian community have dropped out of prayer, attendance at church or have left angry, so who will reach out to those members? We are so busy trying to convert ‘new’ members that we have forgotten the old members. Just like any relationship it needs growth, closeness and to be forgiven

[Jude3b]

My fourth opinion: Christians should minister to Jews and attempt to win them to Christ. That is, Christians should try to convert lost Jews to Christianity and show them all the kindness of God as fellow human beings. But Christians must understand that all unsaved Jews are not the people of God today and unless they repent and receive Christ, they never will be the people of God again. This would be the true and historic position of Christianity.


2nd: In my own opinion:

The responsibility of any Christian would be and should be to maintain a healthy relationship with G-d, to protection the rights and freedoms of other religious denominations, which are country supports & allows (in other words: promoting social & religious justice) responsibilities to other Christians & those that need our financial/emotional support including those who need to hear the word of G-d and are unable to find fellowship within their community (the outcast of our communities-which we can not neglect).

I feel that we are so wrapped up in conversions within the Jewish community that we have forgotten our own community. The source of healing within our community is needed desperately. Some of the members of the Christian community have dropped out of prayer, attendance at church or have left angry, so who will reach out to those members? We are so busy trying to convert ‘new’ members that we have forgotten the old members. Just like any relationship it needs growth, closeness and to be forgiven

Dear mitzi:

Thank you for giving me your opinions. Welcome to this thread.

I don't doubt that there are many in some Christian communites/denominations, who have dropped out of church attendance and don't pray like they used to. This is happening especially in the so-called "main-line" and "high-church" denominations. That is certainly true and I thank you for pointing out your concern about that to us.

JESUS CHRIST CAME TO SEEK AND SAVE THE LOST! Above all else - that was His goal in establishing His kingdom here on earth in the hearts of men and women, boys and girls.

Now mitzi: It is nice to be helpful and send donations to good causes, including the Jewish people in Israel who might be suffering especially after the recent war with the Muslim Crazies up in Lebanon.

On the other hand true blessing, the only really important blessings will not come to apostate Jewry until they repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Until then, they are under God's curse. How can it be otherwise? All blessings are in Christ.

Mitzi: The Bible tells us that when Adam and Eve rebelled, they lost their right to the Garden, and God cast them out. God uses the very same exact principle with Israel, warning them over and over again.

God's people, Bible believing saved Christians, are given the whole earth and all the people's in it and are to be busy sharing the good news of the Gospel until the return of Christ. Therefore, in accordance to the instructions from Jesus himself, we should "be going into all the World and preaching the Gospel to every creature." That includes the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Pagans, the confused, etc. That is our number one and main job.

Mitzi, you can bet on one thing - that the majority of those you describe as needing emotional support and those who don't pray enough and those who don't attend church services enough - are not the ones busy taking the Gospel into all the World and preaching to every creature!

May I ask you these two questions please? Were you a Christian before you became a Messianic Jew? Also, how many unsaved/lost Jews have you led to Christ in your life, who are truly living for Christ today?

[Jude3b]

AT THE COUNCIL HELD IN JERUSALEM IN A.D. 48 of the first century, the door was opened for umpteen thousands, upon thousands of Gentiles to enter into the Christian church. From here the church of God - the body of Christ would spread its movement around the world and today multiplied millions are saved and serving Christ because it did spread.

The Apostle Paul, called by Christ Himself and under the leadership of the Holy Spirit was the leader of much of this work.

His leadership made possible the spreading of the gospel of Christ - into all the world.

I am not discounting in anyway, shape or form the faithful ministry of the Lord's brother - JAMES, the pastor (bishop) of the church of God congregation at Jerusalem and the thousands of Jewish Christian brothers and sisters that were there. But I will say that they did not participate to any great extent in spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ around the world.

Why was that?

In my opinion, the Jewish Christians of Palestine failed to take the guidance and instruction that the Lord Jesus Christ gave them and that Paul offered them.

What happened?

The result of the disobedience of the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem caused them to gradually waste away into oblivion. Jewish Christianity had ended in Jerusalem by 132 A.D. and while it is true that Jewish Christianity held on in parts of Palestine until as late as the fourth century A.D., continuing its separation from Gentile Christianity, when it finally lapsed into heresy by denial of the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. By the 4th century A.D., the Ebionites had taken over and the Jewish Christian church of God congregations had wasted into obvious oblivion - useless to God and His purposes.

QUESTION ONE: Will the Christian Zionists and the Heretical Hebrew Roots teachers take a large portion of the Christian church members into Judaistic Christianity and from there on into OBLIVION as their forefathers did?

Do you think I am off base for asking such a question. Am I an alarmist?

No sir! No Ma'am!

I am not asking this simply to alarm anyone. Listen to what Dr. Harris Elliot Kirk wrote:

"In apostolic times there was a Jewish-Christian and a Gentile-Christian Church - one clinging to Palestine and ancient Hebrew tradition, the other, under the leadership of Paul, going boldly out to meet the world. The Palestinian type loved the nest; the Pauline type sought the arena. It was a great moment in history when the Apostles turned their backs on the attractions of the sheltered life and went forth to preach the gospel to the Gentile world. They had a story to tell which they believed would change the fate of mankind and accomplished their purpose because they were fully in sympathy with the will of their Divine Master. They were men of the message - PREACHERS AND TEACHERS - aflame with patriotic fervor, and derived their authority from the Great Commission. They delibertely sought to live dangerously, accepted hardships as a matter of course, and carried the movement to the heart of the civilized world because they convinced their generation that they were heralds of a message of transforming power." (The Spirit of Protestantism by Professor Harris Elliot Kirk, pp. 206-207).

SECOND QUESTION. I OBSERVE a GREAT AND AWESOME difference in the congregations of early Jewish Christianity and that of the church of God congregations of Gentile Christianity! DO YOU SEE IT? Do you think the modern Christian Zionist/Heretical Jewish Roots teachings will have the same cause and effect that we observed in Apostolic Christianity?

THIRD QUESTION: Why was it that the main vine of the early Jewish church of God congregation became itself a religious sect... and exclusively a Jewish Christian church? Do you think that the Judaistic Christianity of today will have the same result?

FOURTH QUESTION: Why was it that the members of the early Jewish Christian church in Jerusalem shut their eyes to the glorious future of Christ's work and dwelt on the traditions, customs and blessings of the past? Is the modern Jewish Christian church doing the same thing?

FIFTH QUESTION: Why did the Jewish Christians refuse fellowship to the great body of Gentile Christians who would not conform to their dogmatic religious practices? Are the Christian Zionists of today doing the same thing?

SIXTH QUESTION: Isn't it is a fact that the Jewish Christian congregation, while professing a deep, loyal faith in the dogma of Jewish legalism, lost faith in the future and in the personal Christ, who was living with power in the Gentile church of God congregations? Will today's followers of the Heretical Jewish Roots movement end up the same way?

[Darth Executor]

I don't think you know what Zionism means.

[mitzi]

Dear mitzi:

Thank you for giving me your opinions. Welcome to this thread.

I don't doubt that there are many in some Christian communites/denominations, who have dropped out of church attendance and don't pray like they used to. This is happening especially in the so-called "main-line" and "high-church" denominations. That is certainly true and I thank you for pointing out your concern about that to us.

JESUS CHRIST CAME TO SEEK AND SAVE THE LOST! Above all else - that was His goal in establishing His kingdom here on earth in the hearts of men and women, boys and girls.

Now mitzi: It is nice to be helpful and send donations to good causes, including the Jewish people in Israel who might be suffering especially after the recent war with the Muslim Crazies up in Lebanon.

On the other hand true blessing, the only really important blessings will not come to apostate Jewry until they repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Until then, they are under God's curse. How can it be otherwise? All blessings are in Christ.

Mitzi: The Bible tells us that when Adam and Eve rebelled, they lost their right to the Garden, and God cast them out. God uses the very same exact principle with Israel, warning them over and over again.

God's people, Bible believing saved Christians, are given the whole earth and all the people's in it and are to be busy sharing the good news of the Gospel until the return of Christ. Therefore, in accordance to the instructions from Jesus himself, we should "be going into all the World and preaching the Gospel to every creature." That includes the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Pagans, the confused, etc. That is our number one and main job.

Mitzi, you can bet on one thing - that the majority of those you describe as needing emotional support and those who don't pray enough and those who don't attend church services enough - are not the ones busy taking the Gospel into all the World and preaching to every creature!

May I ask you these two questions please? Were you a Christian before you became a Messianic Jew? Also, how many unsaved/lost Jews have you led to Christ in your life, who are truly living for Christ today?

From Mitzi to Jude3b:

I’m very astonished at your line of questions. You must be Rev. Jude3b is my assertion correct? If so, it’s quite an honor to have you on board, for starters! I’ll try to answer your questions as truthfully as I can.

From Jude3b:

Mitzi, you can bet on one thing - that the majority of those you describe as needing emotional support and those who don't pray enough and those who don't attend church services enough - are not the ones busy taking the Gospel into all the World and preaching to every creature!

May I ask you these two questions please? Were you a Christian before you became a Messianic Jew? Also, how many unsaved/lost Jews have you led to Christ in your life, who are truly living for Christ today?

From Mitzi:

A reply back to your first comment, you said “are not the ones busy taking the Gospel into all the World and preaching to every creature”. Yes, you’re correct and I wouldn’t want them to start preaching unless they knew & understood how to deliver the message of Christ. Again, I think you have pointed out in your thread about the number of ministers who are “not” in the right with G-d (Matt 22: 29-30). and Why? Do you think these ministers, even as you mentioned, truly help their members by what they don’t understand or in another sense don’t have the Spirit within them in order to spread the message, correctly. So why do I feel the term “Physician heal they self” coming into my thoughts because these minister/preachers need Christ healing (also) themselves. Also, These ministers only bring more confusion to everyone and will lead others down another path of anger which I think is the main reasons why people are dropping out of the church…. some are getting mixed messages. Solid base preachers who have been “well” educated in the field, who have a true calling to preach (see Matt. 21:21-22) and train to evangelize by accredited school and/or minister should be sent out into the field. The gospel should be expressed with love, with confidence, with respect & understanding. We should be able to feel the gospel words because they are Christ’s words. There is a passage that describes this: (as I quote).

Matt. 13: 18 "Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart.20 The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. 21 But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. 22 The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. 23 But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold." 24 He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field.25
While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. 26 When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. 27 The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?'28
He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'29 He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. 30 Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn."'31 He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a person took and sowed in a field. 32 It is the smallest of all the seeds, yet when full-grown it is the largest of plants. It becomes a large bush, and the 'birds of the sky come and dwell in its branches.'"

Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

Matt. 12: 35-37 A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. 37 By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Jude3b: I was "saved" when I was 23 years old a friend took me to her church (Baptist) and I was baptized. Since then I have continued studying the Gospel.

At the age of 25 I wanted to know more about the Torah. The reasons were very simple I wanted to know more of the "old" testament. In all honesty, I love to read from the Torah. My mind began to open to G-d.....then I re-read GNT and love it even more.

Mitzi

[mitzi]

From Mitzi to Jude3b:

I’m very astonished at your line of questions. You must be Rev. Jude3b is my assertion correct? If so, it’s quite an honor to have you on board, for starters! I’ll try to answer your questions as truthfully as I can.

From Jude3b:

Mitzi, you can bet on one thing - that the majority of those you describe as needing emotional support and those who don't pray enough and those who don't attend church services enough - are not the ones busy taking the Gospel into all the World and preaching to every creature!

May I ask you these two questions please? Were you a Christian before you became a Messianic Jew? Also, how many unsaved/lost Jews have you led to Christ in your life, who are truly living for Christ today?

From Mitzi:

A reply back to your first comment, you said “are not the ones busy taking the Gospel into all the World and preaching to every creature”. Yes, you’re correct and I wouldn’t want them to start preaching unless they knew & understood how to deliver the message of Christ. Again, I think you have pointed out in your thread about the number of ministers who are “not” in the right with G-d (Matt 22: 29-30). and Why? Do you think these ministers, even as you mentioned, truly help their members by what they don’t understand or in another sense don’t have the Spirit within them in order to spread the message, correctly. So why do I feel the term “Physician heal they self” coming into my thoughts because these minister/preachers need Christ healing (also) themselves. Also, These ministers only bring more confusion to everyone and will lead others down another path of anger which I think is the main reasons why people are dropping out of the church…. some are getting mixed messages. Solid base preachers who have been “well” educated in the field, who have a true calling to preach (see Matt. 21:21-22) and train to evangelize by accredited school and/or minister should be sent out into the field. The gospel should be expressed with love, with confidence, with respect & understanding. We should be able to feel the gospel words because they are Christ’s words. There is a passage that describes this: (as I quote).

Matt. 13: 18 "Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 The seed sown on the path is the one who hears the word of the kingdom without understanding it, and the evil one comes and steals away what was sown in his heart.20 The seed sown on rocky ground is the one who hears the word and receives it at once with joy. 21 But he has no root and lasts only for a time. When some tribulation or persecution comes because of the word, he immediately falls away. 22 The seed sown among thorns is the one who hears the word, but then worldly anxiety and the lure of riches choke the word and it bears no fruit. 23 But the seed sown on rich soil is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields a hundred or sixty or thirtyfold." 24 He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven may be likened to a man who sowed good seed in his field.25
While everyone was asleep his enemy came and sowed weeds all through the wheat, and then went off. 26 When the crop grew and bore fruit, the weeds appeared as well. 27 The slaves of the householder came to him and said, 'Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? Where have the weeds come from?'28
He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' His slaves said to him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'29 He replied, 'No, if you pull up the weeds you might uproot the wheat along with them. 30 Let them grow together until harvest; then at harvest time I will say to the harvesters, "First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles for burning; but gather the wheat into my barn."'31 He proposed another parable to them. "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed that a person took and sowed in a field. 32 It is the smallest of all the seeds, yet when full-grown it is the largest of plants. It becomes a large bush, and the 'birds of the sky come and dwell in its branches.'"

Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him.

Matt. 12: 35-37 A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil. 36 I tell you, on the day of judgment people will render an account for every careless word they speak. 37 By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Jude3b: I was "saved" when I was 23 years old a friend took me to her church (Baptist) and I was baptized. Since then I have continued studying the Gospel.

At the age of 25 I wanted to know more about the Torah. The reasons were very simple I wanted to know more of the "old" testament. In all honesty, I love to read from the Torah. My mind began to open to G-d.....then I re-read GNT and love it even more.

Mitzi

P.S. Again I'm not a Messianic Jew. Remember, like any other congregation, you have to be an active member, which I'm not. There are many Christians who read from the Torah and personally I think it's fine. You may think of Torah in only one way, the laws. But Torah is more than that.

Sorry but I'm getting rushed for time and messing up my post. Please excuse the corrections.

Mitzi

[mitzi]

I don't think you know what Zionism means.

Darth:

Please state which person so they can express a reply back. If your indicating both of us then I would have to say, "Yes, I do". Do you know the reasons for starting the Zionist movement? Also, which country started the movement and during what time period? Then you can probably figure that my past relatives where involved and know the movement was "not" encouraged by the Rabbis. There's a good book that I read down at the Jewish community center under Czech Jewry. I will have to remember to post the title of the book so that you can look it over.

Christian Zionist take an extreme ideological positions based on selected scriptural texts and believe the Jewish people have "divine right to posses the land of Palestine". As a matter of fact: there are several MSN groups that have multitudes of Zionist boards. I've read them but I can't converse with the politics. As I've mentioned there are friends that I have personally known for many years who are very devout but again I'm not that political.

There are several Christian organizations that "do" help by financially supporting Israel and some Christians do risk their lives by joining volunteer agencies in Israel.

[Pilgrim]

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[mitzi]

Darth:

Please state which person so they can express a reply back. If your indicating both of us then I would have to say, "Yes, I do". Do you know the reasons for starting the Zionist movement? Also, which country started the movement and during what time period? Then you can probably figure that my past relatives where involved and know the movement was "not" encouraged by the Rabbis. There's a good book that I read down at the Jewish community center under Czech Jewry. I will have to remember to post the title of the book so that you can look it over.

Christian Zionist take an extreme ideological positions based on selected scriptural texts and believe the Jewish people have "divine right to posses the land of Palestine". As a matter of fact: there are several MSN groups that have multitudes of Zionist boards. I've read them but I can't converse with the politics. As I've mentioned there are friends that I have personally known for many years who are very devout but again I'm not that political.

There are several Christian organizations that "do" help by financially supporting Israel and some Christians do risk their lives by joining volunteer agencies in Israel.

I don't hesitation to say with relatives under the 'Novak' name (which I don't any doubt) if they knew anything about the Zionist movement and the Jewish community in Czechoslovakia. Several years back I had spoken with some of family members about the old country as they were and still are knowledgable about this subject.

[Jude3b]

I don't think you know what Zionism means.

Dear Darth:

I am not speaking about secular "ZIONISM" which I understand to be the Jewish National Renewal and Rebirth of the Jews in the land of Israel and that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish nation. No sir, I am not talking about that at all.

I am however talking about the Christian version of Zionism or "popdispyism" or put another way the false and Heretical Jewish Roots teaching that is causing many Christians to come under the influence of the Judaisers and as a result they become anti-Christian in their attitudes and theology. Thats what I against.

[Jude3b]

P.S. Again I'm not a Messianic Jew. Remember, like any other congregation, you have to be an active member, which I'm not. There are many Christians who read from the Torah and personally I think it's fine. You may think of Torah in only one way, the laws. But Torah is more than that.

Sorry but I'm getting rushed for time and messing up my post. Please excuse the corrections.

Mitzi

Dear Mitzi:

Thank you for telling me more about yourself. You say you were baptised in a Baptist church and that makes you a Christian. May I ask you this? If you died today are you certain that you would be going directly into heaven? Why or Why not? If Christ were at the gate and He said to you, why should I let you in my heaven? What would you say to Him?

Concerning the "Torah" - you seem very excited about it. Do you not like or understand the good old King James Version and Its Old Testament? Or even an easier to read version of the Bible? The Old Testament is in every complete Bible that I have ever seen.

You mention that you are not a member of the "Messianic Jew" religion. However, that is where you have regular fellowship and worship, isn't that right?

[mitzi]

Dear Mitzi:

Thank you for telling me more about yourself. You say you were baptised in a Baptist church and that makes you a Christian. May I ask you this? If you died today are you certain that you would be going directly into heaven? Why or Why not? If Christ were at the gate and He said to you, why should I let you in my heaven? What would you say to Him?

Concerning the "Torah" - you seem very excited about it. Do you not like or understand the good old King James Version and Its Old Testament? Or even an easier to read version of the Bible? The Old Testament is in every complete Bible that I have ever seen.

You mention that you are not a member of the "Messianic Jew" religion. However, that is where you have regular fellowship and worship, isn't that right?

You say you were baptised in a Baptist church and that makes you a Christian. May I ask you this? If you died today are you certain that you would be going directly into heaven? Why or Why not? If Christ were at the gate and He said to you, why should I let you in my heaven? What would you say to Him?


Jude3b:

Being re-baptized in the Baptist church along with that verbal expression to the congregation that I have accepted Jesus into my own life gave me a chance to have a "new" start. That baptizism, for me, expressed symbolically that an old life had been washed away in order to begin a 'new' life with Christ which would be filled with help, guidance, comfort, patience, and learning. It was a chance to re-establish that relationship all over again. This was the beginning of a long journey in which Christ was going to be apart of.

During those many years of spiritual change & educational growth with Christ I started to read the GNT,each time, understanding different things: The relationship that the apostles had with Christ and how it all began, their learning stages, their growth, their joys, hardships, pains, questions and endurance to the faith of Christ and love. Read Sirach 1 & 2. Question: Has there ever been any question that the good Lord couldn't answer when you asked, when you allow your mind to open to him?

[mitzi]

You say you were baptised in a Baptist church and that makes you a Christian. May I ask you this? If you died today are you certain that you would be going directly into heaven? Why or Why not? If Christ were at the gate and He said to you, why should I let you in my heaven? What would you say to Him?


Jude3b:

Being re-baptized in the Baptist church along with that verbal expression to the congregation that I have accepted Jesus into my own life gave me a chance to have a "new" start. That baptizism, for me, expressed symbolically that an old life had been washed away in order to begin a 'new' life with Christ which would be filled with help, guidance, comfort, patience, and learning. It was a chance to re-establish that relationship all over again. This was the beginning of a long journey in which Christ was going to be apart of.

During those many years of spiritual change & educational growth with Christ I started to read the GNT,each time, understanding different things: The relationship that the apostles had with Christ and how it all began, their learning stages, their growth, their joys, hardships, pains, questions and endurance to the faith of Christ and love. Read Sirach 1 & 2. Question: Has there ever been any question that the good Lord couldn't answer when you asked, when you allow your mind to open to him?

If Christ were at the gate and He said to you, why should I let you in my heaven? What would you say to Him?

Whatever the relationship is now that you've establish with him should be a indication of the answer. Are you in doubt that the answer would be different when you approach him in heaven?