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This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (the Jehovah's Witnesses). This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Regligions Department.


Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
    My God is a Lord and Jesus is a Lord
    Too bad. There's only ONE Lord when it comes to matters of faith.

    Ephesians 4:4-6New International Version (NIV)
    4*There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
    5*one Lord, one faith, one baptism;


    Deuteronomy 10:17
    For Jehovah your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, . . .
    1 Corinthians 8:6
    yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

    So, your god can't be "a Lord" because Jesus is the only Lord.
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
      John 1:1-3 says "though" him not by him?
      BU
      I repeat,
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      1Notice carefully that it does not say all things "except" Christ Himself. This if it was created Christ created it. Therefore Christ was, according to scripture, not created at all regardless of how you twist the words.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
        John 1:1-3 says "though" him not by him?
        BU
        And Colossians 1:16 Says all things were created BY him

        For by him all things were created

        So how do you reconcile the two verses?

        Obviously BY HIM and THROUGH HIM are equivalent.

        yes?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          And Colossians 1:16 Says all things were created BY him

          For by him all things were created

          So how do you reconcile the two verses?

          Obviously BY HIM and THROUGH HIM are equivalent.

          yes?
          John 1:10
          10 He was in the world,+ and the world came into existence through him,+ but the world did not know him.

          Hebrews 1:2
          2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he [God] appointed heir of all things,+ and through whom he [God] made the systems of things.
          BU

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            I repeat,
            Revelation 3:1
            “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

            BU

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Too bad. There's only ONE Lord when it comes to matters of faith.

              Ephesians 4:4-6New International Version (NIV)
              4*There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called;
              5*one Lord, one faith, one baptism;




              1 Corinthians 8:6
              yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

              So, your god can't be "a Lord" because Jesus is the only Lord.
              Genesis 23:5, 6
              At this the sons of Heth answered Abraham: 6 “Hear us, my lord. You are a chieftain of God among us. . . .

              Exodus 32:21, 22
              And Moses said to Aaron: “What did this people do to you that you have brought a great sin upon them?” 22 Aaron replied: “Do not be enraged, my lord. . . .

              Numbers 11:28
              Then Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses from his youth, responded and said: “My lord Moses, . . .

              Judges 4:18
              Then Jaʹel came out to meet Sisʹe·ra and said to him: “Come in, my lord, . . .

              2 Kings 6:26
              As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him: “Help us, O my lord the king!”

              2 Kings 18:27
              But the Rabʹsha·keh said to them: “Is it just to your lord and to you that my lord sent me to speak these words? . . .

              Daniel 1:10
              But the principal court official said to Daniel: “I am afraid of my lord the king, . . .

              Lords.
              MMMMMMMMM ...
              BU

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                John 1:10
                10 He was in the world,+ and the world came into existence through him,+ but the world did not know him.

                Hebrews 1:2
                2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he [God] appointed heir of all things,+ and through whom he [God] made the systems of things.
                BU
                You didn't answer my question, you just did it again.

                How do you reconcile Col 1:16?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                  Revelation 3:1
                  “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God:

                  BU
                  You still have not gotten around the clear statement of scripture (even the New World 'translation') that Christ was not created.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    You didn't answer my question, you just did it again.

                    How do you reconcile Col 1:16?
                    He ignored my post as well. He has no answer.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      He ignored my post as well. He has no answer.
                      He seems to be an enthusiastic but average JW who gets inundated with the watchtower literature and propaganda and has decided he wants to be an internet apologist for Jehovah's Witnesses and fancies himself more competent than he is, resorting to mostly reposting watchtower literature as his answers. When confronted with something that he doesn't have a prewritten answer to, he just ignores it and tries to slide over the goal posts a little and pretend it never happened.

                      He doesn't seem to be here to actually debate, but just be a mouthpiece for his cult.

                      I was almost (well WAS) dragged into the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a teenager and they started "bible study" with my mom. I have read all of their literature too and I tell you it was a hard road to start thinking for myself and questioning the truth of their propaganda. My only saving grace was that my dad was in the Army and we moved and stopped meeting with them. They are very good at mind control. Like most cults their hook is that they have the real truth that the rest of Christianity has missed for 2000 years. That they should pity the poor lost souls who are being tricked by this world's system of things. But they have the answer!

                      Except when you actually start reading the bible yourself, from start to finish, not skipping around verse to verse like they want you to do, and have to reconcile that the bible is ALL true, then you have to come to the conclusion that what they teach is wrong and the Trinity is true. They also need to read a good bible. The New World Translation is horrible and impossible to follow. It's like reading a google translate version of a chinese web page.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                        Genesis 23:5, 6
                        At this the sons of Heth answered Abraham: 6 “Hear us, my lord. You are a chieftain of God among us. . . .

                        Exodus 32:21, 22
                        And Moses said to Aaron: “What did this people do to you that you have brought a great sin upon them?” 22 Aaron replied: “Do not be enraged, my lord. . . .

                        Numbers 11:28
                        Then Joshua the son of Nun, the minister of Moses from his youth, responded and said: “My lord Moses, . . .

                        Judges 4:18
                        Then Jaʹel came out to meet Sisʹe·ra and said to him: “Come in, my lord, . . .

                        2 Kings 6:26
                        As the king of Israel was passing by on the wall, a woman cried out to him: “Help us, O my lord the king!”

                        2 Kings 18:27
                        But the Rabʹsha·keh said to them: “Is it just to your lord and to you that my lord sent me to speak these words? . . .

                        Daniel 1:10
                        But the principal court official said to Daniel: “I am afraid of my lord the king, . . .

                        Lords.
                        MMMMMMMMM ...
                        BU
                        Again, these are human lords who are in positions of authority. But there is only ONE Lord of all, and that is Jesus Christ. Your god isn't a Lord because Jesus would have to be his Lord to be Lord of Lords.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          He seems to be an enthusiastic but average JW who gets inundated with the watchtower literature and propaganda and has decided he wants to be an internet apologist for Jehovah's Witnesses and fancies himself more competent than he is, resorting to mostly reposting watchtower literature as his answers. When confronted with something that he doesn't have a prewritten answer to, he just ignores it and tries to slide over the goal posts a little and pretend it never happened.

                          He doesn't seem to be here to actually debate, but just be a mouthpiece for his cult.

                          I was almost (well WAS) dragged into the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was a teenager and they started "bible study" with my mom. I have read all of their literature too and I tell you it was a hard road to start thinking for myself and questioning the truth of their propaganda. My only saving grace was that my dad was in the Army and we moved and stopped meeting with them. They are very good at mind control. Like most cults their hook is that they have the real truth that the rest of Christianity has missed for 2000 years. That they should pity the poor lost souls who are being tricked by this world's system of things. But they have the answer!

                          Except when you actually start reading the bible yourself, from start to finish, not skipping around verse to verse like they want you to do, and have to reconcile that the bible is ALL true, then you have to come to the conclusion that what they teach is wrong and the Trinity is true. They also need to read a good bible. The New World Translation is horrible and impossible to follow. It's like reading a google translate version of a chinese web page.
                          I have tremendous concern and affection for JWs. My parents were (my mom still is) JW. They simply are deceived by the false teaching.

                          Reading and studying the Bible on your own is a sure way to avoid much of the error in the JW mindset. If you are a JW you are not supposed to confuse yourself by studying without the JW guidelines.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            I have tremendous concern and affection for JWs. My parents were (my mom still is) JW. They simply are deceived by the false teaching.

                            Reading and studying the Bible on your own is a sure way to avoid much of the error in the JW mindset. If you are a JW you are not supposed to confuse yourself by studying without the JW guidelines.
                            exactly. Just reading a good bible (NOT a New World Translation) without preconceptions will cure any JW from their cult. Or even reading some actual apologetic works instead of the Watchtower publications.

                            And hanging out in places like Theologyweb and actually engaging in a conversation instead of just posting watchtower propaganda and avoiding the topic will also help. So if we can get Bible User to actually USE the Bible and read it without looking through the watchtower filter, he will soon have his eyes opened.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              exactly. Just reading a good bible (NOT a New World Translation) without preconceptions will cure any JW from their cult. Or even reading some actual apologetic works instead of the Watchtower publications.

                              And hanging out in places like Theologyweb and actually engaging in a conversation instead of just posting watchtower propaganda and avoiding the topic will also help. So if we can get Bible User to actually USE the Bible and read it without looking through the watchtower filter, he will soon have his eyes opened.
                              Actually even using the New World Translation it is quite clear that Christ is not a created being, as JWs insist. It is true that if you do not know scripture the NWT (using the term translation very very loosely) will create serious error.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                                Actually even using the New World Translation it is quite clear that Christ is not a created being, as JWs insist. It is true that if you do not know scripture the NWT (using the term translation very very loosely) will create serious error.
                                There are many places where they intentionally add words or change words to fit their theology also. If BU or any JW quotes you the NWT, double check it with a real translation before accepting what it says.

                                Comment

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