Honor thy father and mother...

[LeiLani]

How far does the commandment go? This is my situation.

My mom had me when she was 19, she was unmarried. Two months after I was born, she got pregnant again and had my brother. When I was in second grade, she left me and my brother to go to college, and we had to live with my grandmother. Then my mom dragged us to Texas where we were abused by her and her boyfriend. After three years, we finally got out of that situation, but my mom moved to NY with my brother, I refused to go, my brother was abused there, he got out. My mom got pregnant with her boyfriend's child, he is two years old now. She married the boyfriend a few months ago.

Is there ever a point when a person is released from honoring their father and mother? If not, what exactly does 'honoring' mean? Do I have to recognize her husband as my father?

[themuzicman]

Wow... lots of questions...

First, the easy one: the guy she married is NOT your father. You don't have to call him or consider him to be your father. I wouldn't even call him "dad", unless he earns that title.

As for honoring your mother, tradition holds that you see that her fiscal and physical needs are met in some way (sounds like she has a husband for that, now), and that you don't dishonor her with your words.

Your post here doesn't fall into the category of dishonor, since you've simply relayed the relevant facts for the purpose of asking an honest question.

As long as you're not going around intentionally bad mouthing your mom, and not outright shutting her completely out of your life, and you remain committed to helping her, if she gets to a point where she cannot care for herself, I think you're probably good.

Just keep in mind that "honor" does not mean "obey". If she demands something of you, you are not obligated by her command to do it. You do what you think is right by her, and leave it at that.

:Muz:

[Sher]

Today @ 10:18 AM post located here
LeiLani:

How far does the commandment go? This is my situation.

My mom had me when she was 19, she was unmarried. Two months after I was born, she got pregnant again and had my brother. When I was in second grade, she left me and my brother to go to college, and we had to live with my grandmother. Then my mom dragged us to Texas where we were abused by her and her boyfriend. After three years, we finally got out of that situation, but my mom moved to NY with my brother, I refused to go, my brother was abused there, he got out. My mom got pregnant with her boyfriend's child, he is two years old now. She married the boyfriend a few months ago.

Is there ever a point when a person is released from honoring their father and mother? If not, what exactly does 'honoring' mean? Do I have to recognize her husband as my father?

Hi Lei

First, let me allow my maternal nature to surface for a moment ... especially being old enough to be your mother. Many hugs to you for surviving your childhood ... and not only surviving, but thriving. God's continued peace to you.

To your questions ... As MM said, honor doesn't exactly equal obedience. We are to, first, obey God ... then our parents when we are children (Ephesians 6:1 ff.). So, at that point in life, honor includes obedience in the respect.

However, recognized as an adult now, you are responsible for your own actions. In an ideal situation, you would still be under parent's counsel ... but like many things, it is the responsibility of both parties to uphold. When one side fails, that cannot stand, sometimes no matter how hard you try ... you just have to lift it up to God, and move on with your life.

Honor is kabad (transliterated) ... which means "to be heavy, be weighty, be grievous, be hard, be rich, be honourable, be glorious, be burdensome, be honoured" ... and as you can see by the varied definitions, and context, it is responsibility ... in this case, of taking care of a needful parent.

Respect ... protection ... would be ... and still should be to an extent ... given for an aging parent who is alone ... for parents who are unable to care for themselves. However, it would only have been Biblically necessary if she remained alone, and needed care in her older age. Even if she weren't provided for, that doesn't mean that you have to physically put yourself in harm's way to do so, just to provide the means for her to be taken care of. So many times people discard the elderly to their own means ... and that isn't what God intended. But He also doesn't intend for us to be abused and/or neglected either. Your responsiblity is now lessened by the fact that she has remarried and has a husband now to provide those needs for her ... even to providing for her if he passes away before her.

MM is right that you do not have to recognize that man as your father. Again, in an ideal situation, it would have been nice for that to happen ... every girl should have a father, or father figure, in her life for counsel and support ... especially one who will support you from a Christian perspective. However, this is a respect that has to be earned by him ... not something that you have to freely give, especially not putting yourself in harm's way.

But Lei, a word of encouragement ... relationships with parents can ... and are ... sometimes healed. It takes a commitment from both sides ... being willing to work equally hard at it ... but it can happen.

I have no relationship with my father at all. He doesn't desire to make one work. However, my mother and I had a major split over a year ago ... and we are working our way back ... getting closer as we both strive to make it work. So it is possible.

And remember ... even if it never resolves itself ... you have a Father in heaven that will eternally love you ... who cherishes every hair on your head ... and loves you unconditionally.

And some friends who are always willing to listen ... just forgive my "mothering" sometimes

~Sher

[Minnesota]

Definitions:

• hon·ored, hon·or·ing, hon·ors
  
  To hold in respect; esteem.
  To show respect for.

In almost all cases involving terms within the Bible, I approach them as correctly signifying the intended meaning of the word from which they were translated. Meaning that, the translators used the word "honor" because it best fit the meaning of the foreign word.

So, to honor one's parents would mean to hold them in respect or esteem. But ask yourself, would you hold a complete stranger in respect and esteem? I wouldn't think so, because respect and esteem are virtues that arise from the particular actions of others: they have to be earned. With a parent, we usually grant this , apriori, at the outset because most parents ARE worthy of respect and esteem. It's only when a person has not proved themselves to be worthy or has shattered that worthiness that we are entitled to withhold our respect and esteem. In your case, your mother, in my opinion, has certainly not proved she is worthy of either. I would not respect any mother who has done what she has, nor would I find it esteemable; and, to be consistent, I would apply the same judgment to my mother. Just because your mother has given birth to you, doesn't absolve her of the responsibility to treat you decently; to treat you in a manner that would inspire respect and esteem. And failing to do so, she doesn't deserve them.

Recognizing her husband as your father, is entirely up to you, and how you wish to define "father." I don't think you are under any obligated to do so. If you don't feel he has been fatherly--with all the attendant responsibilities the job entails--than don't! You have NO responsibility to recognize him, or any other man, as your father--your biological father aside.

[Thomas2003]

In your situation it only applies to the office, apparently - but I don't know what you call abuse. But based upon the fact she had two children by 20, I have a good idea, so I'm making some presumptions. You should give enough grace to your mother to repent and fulfill her God ordained role. Never curse her. But, it sounds as if, she has never really ever been a mother - so you are going to have to make the call on whether or not she has dominion.

The point being, it is not dishonoring to disallow a person who does not fulfil the requirements of them as a parent to have dominion over you. That doesn't mean you can be in rebellion, but maybe a grandparent, or a foster parent can intercede on your behalf. Honoring your mother would include offering interposition. Maybe through you God will one day allow her to be a mother and grant repentance to her and reconciliation for you.

Pray for her, that God would work through you to redeem her. Be willing to forgive, that is honor indeed.


Cordially,

Thomas

[LeiLani]

Thanks guys! What you guys said helped a lot. It's not like bitter towards her or anything, but everytime I try to start mending our relationship I get hurt. I still pray that someday she will find salvation and we can have a relationship together.

[David O]

You have to honor your parents. Remember Ham. His Dad probably wasn't acting really wisely when Ham mocked him. Some of Ham's offspring were cursed over it. All Ham did was gaze upon and report to his brothers that Dad was passed out drunk and naked.

Your step-Dad is still responsible for his running of the show. Your Mom is responsible for her part in the show. You need to honor them. "Obey your parents" is not contingent on you deciding that your parents are worth obeying. Judah was told to obey the oppressive Babylonians, Israel was put by God into what He knew would be 400 years of mostly oppressive slavery. A mean or heathen boss is still a boss to be submitted to, obeyed, and honored. Remember the guy who got permission to bow to Rimmon in order to hold up his boss when he went to the pagan temple?

The last thing I told my son 2 years ago was, "I'm not cool with not seeing you, obey your Step-Dad and your Mom." I meant it, although had I legally accused them of grave errors in child rearing.

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. All authority is established of God. You don't have to hang out with or emulate the bad characteristics of your parents, but honor is not earned. It is assigned by God. You are actually honoring God's authority vested in them.

Here's a great practical example for you. I told my step-daughter what was good about her first (late) Dad, how he loved her and told me in a note about it, and what a great singer and guitar player he was. All she had ever heard was how bad he was (drugs, beating up Mom, etc...) She thanked me and from then on she was unbelieveably obedient to me, getting home exactly on time, doing dishes, and obeying all my rules when she was at my house. She even tried to clean her room a few times. Once I had given her a way to honor her Dad, she was able to live orderly. The last verse of the Old Testament speaks of a curse for the land where fathers and children's hearts are not together. Honor you Dad and the Dad-like people, even the mean ones. Don't be mean like them, but honor them. The people of Judah were told to pray for the prosperity of the cruel pagan cities that they got hauled off to. We have to honor the authorities that oppress us. God takes care of those mean guys in the end. The books of the prophets are full of warnings for those nations that are overly cruel to Israel. Babylon got it in the end. Oppressive old Egypt will come to Jerusalem to worship God in the end according to Ezekiel.

I'm sorry that you had a hard time growing up. God takes all that stuff and works it all together for the good of those who love Him. None of that time was wasted. Give it to Him and He'll make great things with your life.

Pray a lot.

[Thomas2003]

All Ham did was gaze upon and report to his brothers that Dad was passed out drunk and naked.

Ham did a little bit more than that. Ham had relations with his mother, impregnated her... and Ham is the father of Canaan.

Leviticus 18:8, The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Leviticus 20:11, And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

We don't know all the details of exactly how it happened, but somewhere along the line Noah learned Canaan was actually his grandchild and cursed his seed.

Cordially,

Thomas

[Minnesota]

David O
You have to honor your parents.

You need to honor them. "Obey your parents" is not contingent on you deciding that your parents are worth obeying.

Just what kind of myopic, brain-dead, lock-step, blind-obedience school did you attend? What is this "need" you speak of? Why does she "need" to honor them?

And what is this side issue of "obeying" doing here? Honoring and obeying are two very different things---don't clutter up the issue.

[Esther]

Thomas, would you be willing to share the references that refer to Ham and his mother? The passages in Leviticus 18 and 20 are clarification (not the word I'm looking for) of the Law, or else Ham also had relations with the rest of his family, sacrificed his children to Molech, was into beastiality and was a homosexual ... ?

Just what kind of myopic, brain-dead, lock-step, blind-obedience school did you attend? What is this "need" you speak of? Why does she "need" to honor them?

Wow, Minnesota. That was pretty harsh. Was that really necessary? You really need to consider going back and reading David's whole post and try to see the bigger picture. You've missed the point.

[Minnesota]

esther
Wow, Minnesota. That was pretty harsh. Was that really necessary? You really need to consider going back and reading David's whole post and try to see the bigger picture. You've missed the point.

And his remark was absolutely inane, if not stupid, which is why I asked, " Just what kind of myopic, brain-dead, lock-step, blind-obedience school did you attend? What is this 'need' you speak of? Why does she "need" to honor them? "

I read the entire post and still await his answer.

IF

honor is not earned. It is assigned by God

Then I would like to know when god assigned HONOR to the code of conduct under which our military operates, or when he assigned HONOR to our judiciary, or HONOR to our elected leadership, or HONOR to our civil laws.

[Socrates]

Yesterday @ 09:10 AM post located here
Thomas2003:

Ham did a little bit more than that. Ham had relations with his mother, impregnated her... and Ham is the father of Canaan.

I can't see the slightest trace of that. The implication of the account of Noah and his wife, and his three sons and their wives, is that Ham and his wife were the parents of Canaan. More likely, what rebellion Noah saw in his own son, he could see far worse in Ham's son.

Leviticus 18:8, The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

Leviticus 20:11, And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

And there isn't the slightest connection with Ham and Noah. The account just says that Ham made fun of Noah's nakedness. We can't wrench other verses from a completely different context and apply them.

[Thomas2003]

Thomas, would you be willing to share the references that refer to Ham and his mother? The passages in Leviticus 18 and 20 are clarification (not the word I'm looking for) of the Law, or else Ham also had relations with the rest of his family, sacrificed his children to Molech, was into beastiality and was a homosexual ... ?

Ester, I think its genesis 9. David was referring to the language where it says Ham saw the nakedness of Noah and went and told his brothers, they covered it up, and later Noah awakens from his drunkenness and learns of what Ham had done unto him.

There is a lot of time running through 4 or 5 verses, long enough to grow a vineyard (several years at least) that produces grapes and make wine.

So, anyway, my references to Leviticus show that the Scriptural concept of "saw/unconvered your fathers nakedness" means sexual relations with one's mother.

Thomas

[Thomas2003]

Just what kind of myopic, brain-dead, lock-step, blind-obedience school did you attend? What is this "need" you speak of? Why does she "need" to honor them?

And what is this side issue of "obeying" doing here? Honoring and obeying are two very different things---don't clutter up the issue

No, they are the same. David's interpretation is correct, parental disobedience is a capital crime in Scripture.

Cordially,


Thomas

[Sher]

Honor is not the same as obedience ... obedience is part of honor.

Furthermore, Acts 5:29 clearly outlines that obedience to God comes before obedience to man. If parents are teaching ... demanding obedience ... outside of what is scripturally correct, the person has to obey God.

Lei, as an adult ... daughter of a woman who is abusive ... does NOT have obey as a child would.

But the point here is not obedience ... but honor ... and that has been covered already.

We should all be praying for the salvation and reconciliation of this woman with her daughter ... not condemning the daughter for the sins of the mother.

:shersig: