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Why distinguish the woman and her children

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
    So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.
    I did not say such. My point is that the words CHURCH, ZION, TEMPLE, "may" refer to leaders instead of the whole elect.

    Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

    Galatians 4:26
    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    [/quote]
    Great subject, which is crucial in understanding the church.

    And I want you to examine yourself how the whole elect could be brought about by two distinct women, as the prophecy said:

    Gal 4:27
    For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

    Isa 54:1
    Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.


    If you may, I would like to give your attention about Sarah and Hagar, the concept of salvation, and the prophesies to understand these things.

    I am in an errand and will not be able to elaborate for now. But I hope you ask me about what I need to give special attention when I will explain these.

    Comment


    • #17
      Hi Obsidian,

      Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
      So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.
      As I said initially, CHURCH, TEMPLE, ZION "may" refer to other things, other than the whole elect. Not only the words I just previously mentioned can have two or more references; even the words CHRIST, KINGDOM OF GOD, BABYLON, SEED, JERUSALEM, etc. Note itself of you quoting Gal 4:26 mentioning JERUSALEM as referring to our mother, instead of our city!

      Is there a conflict? None at all. I have to remind you that the words of God are parables; they ought not be understood as plainly as how the letters say.

      Take for example the word SEED. Ishmael is also a SEED of Abraham, Isaac is a SEED, but there is a SEED that is specifically referring to Christ. A basic understanding of SEED is "possessing the same righteousness with Abraham." Such meaning is applied to Ismael, Isaac and Jesus, and to all elect. But there are promises being attributed to the SEED that only Christ will be the beneficiary. So there is a difference when we refer of the SEED as the whole elect, and of the SEED referring to Christ. Unless a person understands the distinctions, he will not be able to understand what is being truly said in a passage. The same when we refer of the words CHURCH, TEMPLE, ZION, JERUSALEM, etc.


      Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

      Galatians 4:26
      But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
      You are misunderstanding me by applying my referral in general, instead of applying my referral in a limited way; as I said the word "may". That meant to say we ought not to use my reference of "leaders" in general, or on every time the word CHURCH, TEMPLE, or ZION is mentioned. Take for example the word SEED, it does not always refer to Christ. The word SEED "may" also refer of Ishmael, or Isaac, or even the whole elect.

      Now let us examine Gal 4:26 and add verse 27 also. If you can understand what is being truly said in these passages, you would be able to understand, and know the answer to the question of your OP.

      Gal 4:26-27
      26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


      The words MOTHER and WOMAN may refer to a congregation. JERUSALEM as the mother of us all is referring to ALL the elect as a congregation, the CHURCH.

      But verse 27, the women is speaking of specific congregations rather that speaking of the whole elect. Verse 27 refers of the prophecy regarding the congregations of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

      But before we go to the prophecy, let us first understand who are the "barren" and "married" women. And bear in mind that the seed, meaning the elect, comes from both these women. Sarah, represents the married woman, and it represents Jerusalem, ultimately referring to the congregation of Jews. Hagar represents the desolate woman, being driven out to the wilderness. Hagar is also called "barren" not because of having no children, but of having no right to have the seed of Abraham. But how would we account Ishmael as a "seed" of Abraham? At the time of the Patriarch, the children of bondwomen from their masters, will be adopted as children of their female masters-- Take the example of the children of Jacob. The children from the bondwomen, that will become heirs, were adopted as children of their female masters, The children coming from the barren and desolate woman represents the elect from the gentiles.


      Now consider the prophecy below of ZION, the woman, losing her children and then finding them again.


      Isa 49:14-22
      14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. .......... 20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. 21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been? 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.



      It is clear in the prophecy that there will be a time when the woman have no children. But how then that the woman still remain and conversing with God? If the woman refers to the children of God, the woman would have had vanished also when the children of God had vanished. But we ought not to understand the prophecy that way. We have to understand these things as parables, or figurative. The woman, or the church, is simply personified and the passages speak of a time when the church lost her state of existince as a congregation. The woman that was referred as "married" had ceased as a congregation, and the congregation that will rise will come from the gentiles, which is then represented as the congregation from the "barren" or "desolate" woman. This scenario regards the church is corroborated by other prophecies.

      The same kind of treatment should be used in interpreting the woman in revelation. Take for example that Rev 12:14 would not literally refer of the woman, as the church that was truly given wings and flew in the wilderness. We may refer of the woman indeed as the Church, but we do not literally hold the understanding that the Church really were taken in the wilderness. The woman is simply personifying the church just like the prophecy of Isa 49:14-22.
      Last edited by Parakletos; 10-09-2016, 03:19 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        I haven't fully analyzed your post, but I think you are completely wrong when you say that Sarah is the "married woman" and Hagar the "desolate woman." In context, being desolate refers to being barren. Hagar was not barren; Sarah was.

        I agree with this part:

        It is clear in the prophecy that there will be a time when the woman have no children. But how then that the woman still remain and conversing with God? If the woman refers to the children of God, the woman would have had vanished also when the children of God had vanished. But we ought not to understand the prophecy that way. We have to understand these things as parables, or figurative. The woman, or the church, is simply personified and the passages speak of a time when the church lost her state of existince as a congregation. The woman that was referred as "married" had ceased as a congregation, and the congregation that will rise will come from the gentiles, which is then represented as the congregation from the "barren" or "desolate" woman. This scenario regards the church is corroborated by other prophecies.
        And I also agree that the woman is not a literal woman, as you say:

        The same kind of treatment should be used in interpreting the woman in revelation. Take for example that Rev 12:14 would not literally refer of the woman, as the church that was truly given wings and flew in the wilderness. We may refer of the woman indeed as the Church, but we do not literally hold the understanding that the Church really were taken in the wilderness. The woman is simply personifying the church just like the prophecy of Isa 49:14-22.
        But as a practical matter, in saying this, I still don't feel like you really answer the question of what distinguishes the woman and her children. That is, we aren't much closer to saying what the prophecy actually means.

        When it says that the woman is given eagle's wings, as far as I can tell this just means that the woman is strengthened at a point where otherwise she would be weary and perish:

        Isaiah 40:29-31
        He giveth power to the faint;
        and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
        Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
        and the young men shall utterly fall:
        but they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
        they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
        they shall run, and not be weary;
        and they shall walk, and not faint.


        Personally, I am currently leaning toward this interpretation:

        1. Israel gives birth to the Messiah (Child born of the woman with twelve crowns)
        2. The Messiah's followers topple the spiritual powers that are upholding the Roman Empire, and indeed all pagan empires. (Michael casting Satan to earth)
        3. With the loss of spiritual power, the Romans (via Satan) get desperate and try to stamp out the church with threats of death. (Dragon trying to eat the woman)
        4. God gives strength to the church, so that this persecution fails. (Eagles wings)
        5. Satan tries to corrupt the church with false doctrine. (Flood of water out of the dragon's mouth)
        6. Only nominal Christians fall for the lies. ("Earth" swallowing the water)
        7. Satan changes his strategy from persecuting the church as an entity, to trying to torment and corrupt individual believers. (War against the children)
        8. Another empire rises up which is not overtly Satanic/pagan, but which nonetheless carries out this strategy because the devil is covertly behind it. (Beast from the sea, empowered by the dragon)
        9. Another entity (or possibly another empire) gives a pretend Christian mask to this empire, which speaks doctrines of devils. (Beast from the earth)

        The sea is noted to refer to the gentiles in Isaiah 23:11, 42:10, and 60:5.

        Isaiah 60:5
        Then thou shalt see, and flow together,
        and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged;
        because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee,
        the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.


        Although the reference is more tenuous, the subject of 'earth' in Isaiah 51 seems to refer to God, or else to people who follow after God.

        Isaiah 51:1-2
        Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness,
        ye that seek the Lord:
        look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
        and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
        Look unto Abraham your father,
        and unto Sarah that bare you:
        for I called him alone,
        and blessed him, and increased him.


        So the difference between the woman and the children would be that the children are individuals who are persecuted by Satan, in contrast to the church as an entity (the woman) being persecuted.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
          I haven't fully analyzed your post, but I think you are completely wrong when you say that Sarah is the "married woman" and Hagar the "desolate woman." In context, being desolate refers to being barren. Hagar was not barren; Sarah was.
          The words "married", "desolate", and "barren" are spiritual, not physical, references for the church. Even Sara and Hagar is no more referred to the physical women: Sara and Hagar, but of the churches, or congregations.

          The words are parables, we should not understand them literally.

          I agree with this part:

          And I also agree that the woman is not a literal woman, as you say:

          But as a practical matter, in saying this, I still don't feel like you really answer the question of what distinguishes the woman and her children. That is, we aren't much closer to saying what the prophecy actually means.
          The distinctions will come through understanding the parables, not by literally distinguishing the words used. For example, the woman and her children is practically the same. But there is a specific message why the woman is made distinct to his children. There is a point in a prophecy where the children were gone, and thus the kingdom of God did not exist(Isaiah 49:20). But there is also a prophesy that the kingdom of God will continue forever (Dan 2:44, Isa 9:7). So here you have to give the proper understanding who the woman is referred, and who the children are. The "woman" referred in Revelation is speaking in terms of the kingdom that will continue forever, and the children refer to the "leaders." The cessation of the kingdom of God does not necessarily end by the physical death of its rulers, nor the dissolve of the congregation. The kingdom of God, as taught in the parables, exist in different ways. Even as Christ said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

          Another one example, not because the man child was born by the woman, does not mean that the child is not Christ. You might argue and say, "Jesus is
          the bridegroom of the woman, therefore he is not the child born by the woman." No, the man child born by the woman was the same who is also presented as the bridegroom of the woman.

          When it says that the woman is given eagle's wings, as far as I can tell this just means that the woman is strengthened at a point where otherwise she would be weary and perish:

          Isaiah 40:29-31
          He giveth power to the faint;
          and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
          Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
          and the young men shall utterly fall:
          but they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
          they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
          they shall run, and not be weary;
          and they shall walk, and not faint.
          Again you must understand the parables and not rely on the specific words used. The woman that was spoken is not specifically speaking of a congregation, but in terms of the kingdom of God, that exist differently than as a congregation. Now, as we learn in the prophesy, the woman had lost her children, referring of the Jewish Christian leaders. When the Jewish Christian leaders were overcomed by the Devil, the woman was therefore like lost, or seems none existent, as described by being in the wilderness.


          Personally, I am currently leaning toward this interpretation:

          1. Israel gives birth to the Messiah (Child born of the woman with twelve crowns)
          I agree.

          2. The Messiah's followers topple the spiritual powers that are upholding the Roman Empire, and indeed all pagan empires. (Michael casting Satan to earth)
          3. With the loss of spiritual power, the Romans (via Satan) get desperate and try to stamp out the church with threats of death. (Dragon trying to eat the woman)
          These things are observed in spiritual way, not in physical ways. We may differ greatly on understanding how these things happens.

          4. God gives strength to the church, so that this persecution fails. (Eagles wings)
          The church(Jewish congregation) was overcomed by the beast, this was the time the church was given eagle's wing and fled to wilderness.

          5. Satan tries to corrupt the church with false doctrine. (Flood of water out of the dragon's mouth)
          6. Only nominal Christians fall for the lies. ("Earth" swallowing the water)
          7. Satan changes his strategy from persecuting the church as an entity, to trying to torment and corrupt individual believers. (War against the children)
          8. Another empire rises up which is not overtly Satanic/pagan, but which nonetheless carries out this strategy because the devil is covertly behind it. (Beast from the sea, empowered by the dragon)
          9. Another entity (or possibly another empire) gives a pretend Christian mask to this empire, which speaks doctrines of devils. (Beast from the earth)
          These above events happened to the Jewish congregation, until the Jewish congregation were overcome by the beast.

          The sea is noted to refer to the gentiles in Isaiah 23:11, 42:10, and 60:5.

          Isaiah 60:5
          Then thou shalt see, and flow together,
          and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged;
          because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee,
          the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.


          Although the reference is more tenuous, the subject of 'earth' in Isaiah 51 seems to refer to God, or else to people who follow after God.

          Isaiah 51:1-2
          Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness,
          ye that seek the Lord:
          look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
          and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
          Look unto Abraham your father,
          and unto Sarah that bare you:
          for I called him alone,
          and blessed him, and increased him.
          You are missing a big part of prohesies, especially of the rise of the Gentiles. As said to Jesus: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

          You are missing the blindness of Israel, the prophecy about the people from the isles, etc.

          So the difference between the woman and the children would be that the children are individuals who are persecuted by Satan, in contrast to the church as an entity (the woman) being persecuted.
          Quite close enough.

          However, I seem to infer that you are not wary that the children persecuted were persecuted were all killed, or overcomed by the the beast. And this is what the prophesies say:


          20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, ........Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. Isa 49:20-22
          Last edited by Parakletos; 10-16-2016, 04:22 PM.

          Comment


          • #20
            Isaiah doesn't say that any children are going to be killed. It's just saying that the woman is childless because by the time of Jesus, very few real believers were left in Israel. There weren't any 'children' around to follow the religion. Ultimately some more children came about through revival, and many of them were gentiles.

            Regarding the beast: There is nothing in Revelation 12 about any "beast" killing Jews, or even about any beast at all. Further, in neither 12 nor 13 is there anything about anyone being given eagle's wings to hide from a beast. Rather, the beast only occurs after the eagle's wings, and after the woman is safe, and basically after all of the dragon's efforts have failed. The beast only goes after the children. And I highly doubt that the "children" refer specifically to the Jews. If anything, I think the "children" probably refers to people of all nations and tongues, as described in Revelation 7:9 and also the passage in Isaiah that you cited.

            The woman that was spoken is not specifically speaking of a congregation, but in terms of the kingdom of God, that exist differently than as a congregation.
            I never said that the woman was "a" congregation, as in a single congregation. I agree that it is the kingdom of the righteous. But I don't know what you are trying to say, when you distinguish the "kingdom of God" from the word I used -- "church." I meant that the woman represents all the churches as organizations, as opposed to all individual Christians.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
              Isaiah doesn't say that any children are going to be killed. It's just saying that the woman is childless because by the time of Jesus, very few real believers were left in Israel. There weren't any 'children' around to follow the religion. Ultimately some more children came about through revival, and many of them were gentiles.

              Regarding the beast: There is nothing in Revelation 12 about any "beast" killing Jews, or even about any beast at all. Further, in neither 12 nor 13 is there anything about anyone being given eagle's wings to hide from a beast. Rather, the beast only occurs after the eagle's wings, and after the woman is safe, and basically after all of the dragon's efforts have failed. The beast only goes after the children. And I highly doubt that the "children" refer specifically to the Jews. If anything, I think the "children" probably refers to people of all nations and tongues, as described in Revelation 7:9 and also the passage in Isaiah that you cited.
              As much as possible, we should consider ALL prophecies to understand the events to come. The more prophecies we know, the more precise we would be.

              First, Israel will not be gathered, that is how, and why, the Gentiles will come in.

              5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isa 49:5-6

              And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; TO IT SHALL THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious. Isa 11:10


              This is where we draw the mystery of the "barren" and the "married", as if we are now speaking of two women, or two churches, or two kingdoms. Prophecies are uttered in parables, the words in the parables can easily be mixed up by other reference of the word in other parables. Same words would not exactly mean the same in other parables. The used of the words "barren" and "married" women is only used to distinguished the origin of the children, though as Paul said, "Jerusalem is the mother of all." The married woman is where the Jews come from, while the barren woman represents the Gentiles. Israel is the one espoused to God, not the Gentiles.

              The church then were under the Jews, and majority of prophesied in Revelation is speaking to the Jews. There will be a HALT if sealing among the Jews because Israel will not be gathered and fall into blindness (Rom 11:25). The fate of the children of the woman(which was then under the Jews) being persecuted will be death, and ultimately be "subjected" to the beast.

              And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:7

              And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Rev 13:7

              And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 6:11

              As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rom 8:36

              I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:21

              And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. Dan 8:24


              As I said in my previous post, the children which were referred are rulers. The death of the rulers does not meant the death of the church. However, there will be no legitimate congregation while the holy people were subjected to the power of the beast. And also, there will be blindness that will happen to the people (Amos 8:11-14). So this will explain of the woman being weak, and in the state of being lost in the wilderness, and of her need of "weaning."


              Now, the Church will rise again through the Gentiles. The loss of children implies loss of leaders. The bringing up again of the children will now come through the Gentiles (Isa 49:20-22). This is understood by the apostles then, as discussed by James in the council at Jerusalem:

              14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the GENTILES, TO TAKE OUT OF THEM A PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:14-17

              At this time Christ will be more "glorious" (Isa 11:10). Simply because, unlike what happened in Israel(married woman) where there were few that were gathered, and was defeated by the beast. The Gentiles(barren woman) will have more children (Isa 54:1), and as said in the prophecy:

              And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. Jer 31:40

              The prophecy above speaks of the reconfigured/renewed Jerusalem, which will happens at the reign of the Gentiles. The prophecy to Israel says: "......Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land. (Jer 45:4)"


              I never said that the woman was "a" congregation, as in a single congregation. I agree that it is the kingdom of the righteous.
              As I said in the beginning of this post, and I implied from the previous post, that same words in prophesies may have distinctions. Look at how the parables describe the "kingdom of God." So there is no basic way to understand what the kingdom of God is. The referred kingdom of God in a parable/prophecy is determined according to the message. Same when we speak of the woman. You claimed that the woman to be Israel, yet even Israel does not necessarily refer to the nation, and Israel can even mean to all the elect. The spiritual reference of the word Israel is not only one. And woman, as I have explained above, may also be used as reference of origin, or congregation.


              But I don't know what you are trying to say, when you distinguish the "kingdom of God" from the word I used -- "church."
              The words "woman", "kingdom of God" and "church" may refer to all the elect. Defending on what is being communicated about the elect, the specific word is used. When the word "church" is used, it has to do with the elect as the the temple of God. When it is referred as a "woman" it has to do with the elect's marriage to God, and of the law. When the word "kingdom of God" is used, it has to do with God's sovereignty and authority. When it is represented as a "mother" it has to do with origin


              I meant that the woman represents all the churches as organizations, as opposed to all individual Christians.
              The church cannot represent "churches as organizations." The whole elect is itself presented as a temple, the hierarchies are link to one another. The church, in every spiritual meaning, has in essence only referring to the elect. You can never refer the whole christendom as the "woman" or the "church" that is of God. Any church that is not ruled by an elect is not a member of the church of God, regardless it call itself "The Church of God." But a church which is ruled by an elect, will save everyone that submits unto it (Matt 10:41).
              Last edited by Parakletos; 10-18-2016, 05:38 PM.

              Comment


              • #22
                There are several points in your interpretation that do not make sense.

                You still say that the "married woman" refers to the Jews. In reality, Paul uses the married woman to refer to Hagar, and the barren woman to refer to Sarah.

                Galatians 4:25-27
                For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


                It is true that the so-called "Jews" that claimed to follow after the covenant of Mount Sinai were then compared to Hagar. However, that is only because they rejected Christ. So they were physical descendants of Abraham, but that was all they were. In contrast, Sarah (the barren) was related to Christ because God had specifically promised that Sarah would give birth to Christ's lineage. Therefore, it is not the "gentiles" who are children of the barren, as you say. It is anyone who believes in Christ that is children of the barren.

                You also say that the "children" refers to church leaders. I don't see where in the world you are getting this from.

                Originally posted by Parakletos
                You claimed that the woman to be Israel, yet even Israel does not necessarily refer to the nation, and Israel can even mean to all the elect.
                Israel refers to a nation, but the passage is teaching that believers in Christ, whether Jew or gentile, are actually the legitimate descendants of Israel. In Revelation 7 the 144,000 or "multitude" is specifically said to come from all nations and tongues. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14, where they have gained victory over the beast. I think the "children" and the 144,000 are the same. They are brothers of Christ and descendants of Israel.

                There will be a HALT if sealing among the Jews because Israel will not be gathered and fall into blindness (Rom 11:25).
                I don't see where Revelation actually addresses that issue.

                The church then were under the Jews, and majority of prophesied in Revelation is speaking to the Jews.
                Revelation seems to be written to people living in Turkey and Greece, who seem to be representative of the kingdom of God as a whole.

                Regarding your jumping around to various OT passages such as Amos and Jeremiah, if you're going to do that then I think you need to provide more expansive or clearer argument for why those passages actually are talking about the subject at hand.

                However, there will be no legitimate congregation while the holy people were subjected to the power of the beast. And also, there will be blindness that will happen to the people (Amos 8:11-14). So this will explain of the woman being weak, and in the state of being lost in the wilderness, and of her need of "weaning."
                The passage doesn't say anything about the woman needing weaning. Also, if she is weak at all, the weakness seems to derive from persecution. And it does not say that there will be no legitimate congregation.

                The "blindness" that are referring to from Amos (actually it is more of a "drought" than blindness) refers to Israel's departure from God leading up until the time of Christ. It is not referring to the church age. That's why in the following chapter, Amos 9 (quoted in Acts 15), it talks about rebuilding David's tabernacle which refers to Christianity.
                Last edited by Obsidian; 10-19-2016, 12:51 AM.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Obsidian View Post
                  There are several points in your interpretation that do not make sense.
                  I understand your confusion. You are somehow limited yourself in understanding prophesies by your limited knowledge of prophesies. As I have previously told you, the more prophecies we know, the more precise we are in viewing the events of the prophecies.

                  I indeed lacked explanation, but I am impressing in my response my complicated stances by mentioning various prophecies.

                  Now, I will try to give more detailed explanations in my responses.


                  You still say that the "married woman" refers to the Jews. In reality, Paul uses the married woman to refer to Hagar, and the barren woman to refer to Sarah.

                  Galatians 4:25-27
                  For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


                  It is true that the so-called "Jews" that claimed to follow after the covenant of Mount Sinai were then compared to Hagar. However, that is only because they rejected Christ. So they were physical descendants of Abraham, but that was all they were. In contrast, Sarah (the barren) was related to Christ because God had specifically promised that Sarah would give birth to Christ's lineage. Therefore, it is not the "gentiles" who are children of the barren, as you say. It is anyone who believes in Christ that is children of the barren.
                  No, it is not the Israelites rejection that made them in bondage, rather it is because they were under the law of Moses at that time.

                  Meaning of “bondage”
                  The basic implication of being in “bondage” is of a person’s burden to “work” to earn benefits or wages. Such is the personhood of Hagar being a “servant” Those in bondage also represents those under the law; for by the law is earning the benefits/wages from God through works. Mount Sinai represents those in bondage, like Agar, because Mount Sinai represents the receiving of the law. Thus, when Israel was under the law, it answers to Hagar, which was then the Jerusalem in bondage because of being under the law.

                  In contrast, the elect have legitimate mother, thus they receive the benefits as heirs. The heirs do not work for benefits, they are expected to receive by virtue as heirs. The elect’s mother therefore represent the married woman, Sarah. This is the reason Sarah represents the children of the free, also the Jerusalem that is free. The elect are not under the law. The elect do not work to gain the benefits from God, it is given to them through grace.

                  The bondage issue was also figuratively shadowed through Jacob and Esau. Jacob and Esau represents two nations. Jacob, who was later called Israel, was the one who was to receive the promises. Esau, was also blessed, but he will be a “servant” of Jacob/Israel, saying, “the elder shall serve the younger.”

                  The two nations of heir and servant is initially shadowed in Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael is the son of a servant, while Isaac is a son of the free woman.

                  Meaning of “barren”
                  The barrenness have nothing to do of Sarah’s barrenness. The issue of barrenness is about unable to produce “legitimate” heir. Such was the state of Hagar being the servant. Hagar’s son, Ishmael, is not a heir regardless he was also a seed of Abraham. This is also shadowed in Jacob and Esau. Jacob/Israel is the nation of heirs, Esau have no part of the promises and is a servant of Jacob/Israel. Thus, the servant mother was the barren because she can’t bear a legitimate heir.

                  Now, Paul’s main point in Galatians 4 is to identify the children who are the true heirs. And Paul’s main point of distinguishing Sarah and Hagar are to distinguish those under the covenant of the law to those under the covenant of grace. Of which the heirs are counted from those under the covenant of grace.

                  Now, Paul’s main point of distinguishing the “Jerusalem which is ABOVE” to the “Jerusalem which is NOW” is to stress that the true Israel, or the heirs, will come from both Sara and Hagar. Paul’s words “mother of us all” implies that the children will both come from Sara and Hagar. And Paul support his implication by the prophecy he laid in verse 27, a prophecy that is written in Isaiah 54. The message of the prophecy is that there will be more number of legitimate children from the barren(gendering Hagar/Gentiles) than of the married(gendering Sara/Jews).

                  The fact that the “Jerusalem which is now,” which refer to the Israelites, were in bondage, and is representation of Hagar, only implies that the nation of Israel cannot be the basis of being the children and heirs. And what Paul referred as “Jerusalem which is above” is neither the women represented by Sara nor Hagar. Sara and Hagar were only used to represent the distinctions of the origin/affiliation of the elect in terms of being Jews or Gentiles, and of those under the law or grace, and of servant and free. The representation of “Jerusalem which is now” of Hagar calls the attention of judging the heirs not by their affiliations/origins, calling us to judge which is the true Israel or not. And so, we judge that the true Israel is not only the Jews; that those who are truthfully under the law is not literally those who receive the law; and that the truthfully children of the free is not literally referring of the Jews.


                  You also say that the "children" refers to church leaders. I don't see where in the world you are getting this from.
                  It is not openly stated but it is simply implied by mere understanding the structure of the kingdom of God. And simply, not all people in the kingdom of God are priests and kings. Those who are called to be heirs will be kings and priests.

                  The promise to Abraham was that in his "seed" shall all the families of the earth will be blessed. The seed, is the heir, and is distinct to all the families of the earth. The seed which was, as supposed, Israel, was the nation anointed to be handling the authorities to be given of God (Rom 9:4). But obviously, even in Israel, not all were given the authority of priest and kings. And so, though the elect were promised to be a nation of kings and priests, not all who are part of the nation will indeed be king and priest. Not all who were given the promises belong to the "seed."



                  Israel refers to a nation, but the passage is teaching that believers in Christ, whether Jew or gentile, are actually the legitimate descendants of Israel.
                  My point is that we apply the necessary meaning. Israel as a nation is indeed distinct to the believers in Christ, and also different if we refer of Israel as the elect rather than just believers. We apply the right meaning according to the message being proclaimed. Sometimes a word carries multiple meaning, example is of Paul using the word Jerusalem in Galatians 4:25-27. Paul referred of “Jerusalem which is now” to the literal nation, and the spiritual representation of Mount Sinai. But what he referred as “Jerusalem which is above” is not the literal Israel but rather the elect.


                  In Revelation 7 the 144,000 or "multitude" is specifically said to come from all nations and tongues. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14, where they have gained victory over the beast. I think the "children" and the 144,000 are the same. They are brothers of Christ and descendants of Israel.
                  The 144,000 is clearly the Israelites (Rev 7:4-8). In Revelation 14:4, the 144,000 were distinguished as the “firstfruits.” The firstfruits are distinguished from other elect at Christ’s coming (1Cor 15:23). Spiritually speaking, there are two harvesting periods. So one can get the gist that the firstfruits belongs to the first harvesting period. Also, James count himself, as one of the firstfruits (James 1:18).

                  The events in verses from Rev 7:9 and forward do not necessarily meant it happens right away after the sealing of the 144,000. There is part of the prophecies of a period when the holy people are defeated and subjected to the enemy. But when it speaks of those people from verse 9 and forward they will not suffer anymore tribulation. (verses16-17).

                  Further explanations is related to your proceeding question.

                  I don't see where Revelation actually addresses that issue.
                  You must note what the angel said: “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants….” It thus implies from the angel’s words that after the sealing of the 144,000 the four angels will lose the four winds of the earth that will hurt the earth and the sea. So after the sealing of the 144,000 there will be tribulation on earth and the sea. But the people referred from Revelation 7:9 and forward will be at peace (verses 16-17).

                  I have already told you that it is prophesied that Israel will not be gathered at Christ’s coming, and for which reason the Gentiles will come into view. It also says in the prophesy that a “remnant” shall return, which is contrary to what it says in verse 9 where the people are “a great multitude, which no man could number.”

                  The realization of a great multitude coming to Christ will only happen in the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy in Revelation 11:15 that says: “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Also, the Lord said unto Christ, “…Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” The Lord’s words to Christ implies that Christ will remain in God’s right hand until the prophecy in Revelation 11:15 is fulfilled, a time when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdom of God and Christ, a time where Christ’s enemies are subdued unto him.

                  So, in conclusion, the 144,000 is distinct to the great multitude, which no man could number. And these groups were separated by a period of tribulation.

                  Revelation seems to be written to people living in Turkey and Greece, who seem to be representative of the kingdom of God as a whole.
                  All Scriptures are written for the elects’ learning, with that said, your argument is too weak for consideration. The messages will itself point us to whom the messages are for.

                  Regarding your jumping around to various OT passages such as Amos and Jeremiah, if you're going to do that then I think you need to provide more expansive or clearer argument for why those passages actually are talking about the subject at hand.
                  I understand that I need more explanations. But the prophecies are given to us like pieces of a Jigsaw puzzle. Somehow there is a way we can figure as to where a puzzle must belong through a help of the picture of the puzzle. And without the picture of the puzzle, I could not convince you why a certain piece of a puzzle may be placed.

                  In our situation, you do not have a picture of the puzzle of the prophecies, so you can see how limited my effectiveness is unto you. Also, the mystery of the kingdom of God is not known to everyone. And also, some have no knowledge of the doctrines of truth. These have an impact in understanding prophecies.

                  It is actually very hard for anyone to understand the prophecies. Understanding prophecies are one of the gifts of God. And those who understand prophecies have the office of prophets or higher authority in the kingdom of God.

                  The passage doesn't say anything about the woman needing weaning. Also, if she is weak at all, the weakness seems to derive from persecution.
                  Rev 12:6 talked of the woman being “feed.” The only meaning we can derive of a church being feed is feeding her spiritual food. Sometimes a word can make a big implications in understanding prophecies.

                  And it does not say that there will be no legitimate congregation.
                  You are relying solely on the passages of Revelation, and you do not know how the passages are related to other prophecies. I mentioned to you prophesies that will lead you to understand the about the legitimate congregation, but I understand why my mentioning of those prophecies are turning futile to you. You do not have a picture of the Jigsaw puzzle where I draw my conclusions on the pieces of the puzzle.


                  The "blindness" that are referring to from Amos (actually it is more of a "drought" than blindness) refers to Israel's departure from God leading up until the time of Christ. It is not referring to the church age. That's why in the following chapter, Amos 9 (quoted in Acts 15), it talks about rebuilding David's tabernacle which refers to Christianity.
                  Amos 8:12 clearly says “and shall not find it.” I can cite to you the prophecies regards the “falling away”, the “blindness of Israel,” and of the rise of the Gentiles, leading up for you to have a good grasp of things to happen, but these requires much explanations, and that it will be futile without you having a comprehensive view of the events to happen.

                  There is a connection of the blindness to happen to the rebuilding of the tabernacle. But have you ever considered knowing the detail of how the tabernacle of David was destroyed? When it was destroyed? Why it was destroyed? What is the tabernacle of David refers to? I can sense that you actually have no knowledge of connecting the blindness of Israel to falling of the tabernacle of David.

                  Your reliance of your limited knowledge to set your view of prophecies is sure will hinder you to understand what I would be explaining.

                  If you have time, please do visit my website to know some of my views.
                  Last edited by Parakletos; 10-23-2016, 09:47 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Found some info on Revelation 12:1-17:

                    Vayeshev - the information in some reference books say that the passage in Genesis 37:1-44:9 ,9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” presents a problem , viz. what eleven stars is I.E. referring to? It appears that the aforementioned is a copyist's error. It was inserted either consciously or unconsciously from Gen. 37:9 which speaks of Joseph's dream, which consisted of the sun and moon and eleven stars -

                    Song that is sung during passover:

                    Initial words of a Hebrew nursery-rime which, with Had Gadya, is recited at the close of the Seder on
                    Passover v,ve. It consists of thirteen numbers, and was probably recited originally as a dialogue, if not

                    in chorr.c.

                    Question : " One— who knows ? " Answer : " One— I know :
                    One is our God In heaven and on earth."

                    ....

                    Question: " Eleven— who knows?" Answer: "Eleven— I
                    know: the eleven stars " (in Joseph's dream: Gen. xxxvil. 9).
                    Chorus: "Ten Commandments, Nine . . . ."


                    Question : " Twelve — who knows ? " ATiswer : " Twelve— I
                    know: the Twelve Tribes of Israel." Chorus: " Eleven stars.
                    Ten . . . ."

                    Question: " Thirteen— who knows?" Answer: "Thirteen
                    —I know; the thirteen attributes of God" (Ex. xxxiv. 6-7).
                    Chorus : "Twelve Tribes of Israel. Eleven . . . ."

                    This song, stated by Zunz in "G. V." p. 133
                    to occur only in (Jerman Pesah haggadahs since the
                    fifteenth century, was later found by Zunz him-
                    self in the Avignon ritual as a festal table-song
                    for holy-days in general ("Allg. Zeitung des Ju-
                    denthums," iii. 469).

                    *****

                    Commentary - 12 tribes of Israel. Was there a reason for listing 11 and not 12? Information is listed as the following: " Rabbi Nehemiah taught that Reuben reasoned that he was the firstborn and he alone would be held responsible for the crime. The Rabbis taught that Reuben reasoned that Joseph had included Reuben with his brethren in Joseph's dream of the sun and the moon and the eleven stars in Genesis 37:9, when Reuben thought that he had been expelled from the company of his brothers on account of the incident of Genesis 35:22. Because Joseph counted Reuben as a brother, Reuben felt motivated to rescue Joseph. And since Reuben was the first to engage in life saving, God decreed that the Cities of Refuge would be set up first within the borders of the Tribe of Reuben in Deuteronomy 4:43.[79]"

                    Also, Psalms 8 is connected to this passage - What is man that you are mindful of him? - When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
                    the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Marta View Post
                      Also, Psalms 8 is connected to this passage - What is man that you are mindful of him? - When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
                      the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?
                      The spiritual meaning of the words "moon" and "stars" are related to the holy people of God. But one should not mix up the interpretation of referring to the moon and stars during Joseph's time to other period of time.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Referencing to the above post - Post # 7 didn't attach on.

                        Apostoli:
                        Well!!! There is a problem if the woman is symbolic of either of the nations Israel or Judah. OT symbolism has it that Israel was an adulterous and Judah was a harlot. The consequence: her offspring would be born as a result of harlotry and thus blemished = unacceptable as a champion of God.

                        Imo, the best we can assume is that the woman is of the seed of Jacob.

                        Consider Joseph's dream at Genesis 37:9. It is generally agreed that in the symbolism of the dream: Jacob=the sun, Rachel=the moon, and Jacob's twelve sons=the twelve stars. In Joseph's dream all of these did obeisance to him. In A.John's vision the woman is clothed with the sun (Jacob), which indicates that from her a nation and a king would arise (cp. Genesis 35:11), but more importantly all of God's promises to Abraham & Isaac would flow from her offspring (cp. Genesis 35:12). The moon (Rachel) is under her feet, which I take to mean the redundancy of Israel & Judah. Upon her head is a crown of twelve stars (Jacobs sons). Presumably, the twelve stars as her crown represent Jesus' twelve disciples, the spiritual sons of the woman (cp. John 19:26).
                        The dream only include 11 stars and not 12, "Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
                        Last edited by Marta; 10-28-2016, 04:25 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Perhaps:

                          The Woman = Israel;or possibly Jerusalem; or possibly the “Jerusalem that is above”. In fact:
                          given the antithesis in Rev between heaven and earth
                          and the prominence of the Heavenly Liturgy
                          and the idea in Exodus that Moses received a pattern of worship from God (Rev is full of the Exodus)
                          and the mention and description of the “new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven, like a bride adorned for her husband”;

                          ISTM quite possible/probable that the Woman of Rev 12 is the heavenly Jerusalem; not the earthly one. So far, I am not convinced that the Woman of Rev 12 is the same Woman as Babylon the Great; though the suggestion has its attractions.

                          The (implied) children of the Woman of Rev 12 = Christians of Jewish origin, AKA those persons of whom a census is given in Rev 7. Cf. the censuses in the Exodus, and cf. Psalm 87.5-6. 87.4 refers to “Rahab and Babylon”, the monster and the city, both very relevant to Rev 12.
                          The census-motif can be related to Jerusalem in a rather grim way, by means of Ezekiel 9.

                          The “rest of her children” = Gentile Christians. Cf. St John 10.16.

                          Or possibly the contrast is not between those two sets of Christians, but between those in Heaven, & those on Earth - the latter being/including those in the 7 Churches of Rev. 2-3.

                          This may be relevant, from Galatians 4:

                          26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.27For it is written,
                          “REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
                          BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
                          FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
                          THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND.”
                          28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.30But what does the Scripture say?
                          “CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
                          FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”
                          31So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.”

                          The Great Red Dragon is identified as satan; and is described in imagery used of Nebuchadnezzar in Jer. 51.34

                          As for Michael, his warring with satan can be seen as a fulfilment of Isaiah 27.1’s oracle against the sea serpent. Since the Messiah is Christ, it is hard to see how Michael can be Christ (attractive as the idea is).

                          There is a question about the chronology of Rev 12: is St John seeing a future event, or a set of realities that are always the case while the People of God are in this world ? Rev 12 has very much the atmosphere of a *tableau vivant*, a pictorial rendering of lasting ideas. I think he is seeing a symbolic representation of these lasting ideas: that God has a People, and that in this world it is always under attack from the devil, and that God is always casting down the devil and giving rest to His People.
                          Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-11-2018, 12:59 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Marta View Post
                            Referencing to the above post - Post # 7 didn't attach on.



                            The dream only include 11 stars and not 12, "Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
                            Or possibly the 12 stars are the 12 Apostles; which would require the John of Rev to be a different John from the Apostle. Such as, “John the Elder”.

                            FWIW, the 12 tribes in Rev 7 are - by OT reckoning - 11 rather than 12, since Dan is missing.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Since I first posted this thread, I pretty much figured out what the difference is between the woman and her children. The woman refers to the state of Israel. The twelve crowns signify Israel's political power. The dragon represents all the enemy states empowered by Satan to attack Israel, most notably Babylon, Persia, the Four Greek Empires, and Rome. The stars swept out of the sky refer to the persecutions of the Seleucid Empire against the Jews, as prophesied in Daniel 8. After this persecution, Jesus was later born. Herod, a Roman ruler, tried to murder Jesus but failed. Eventually Jesus was taken up to heaven to rule over all nations. The woman's flight into the wilderness refers to the fact that Israel as a government effectively went underground after the rise of Christianity. The purpose of going underground was so that Satan could not attack God's people outright, like he did with the wicked Jews at Jerusalem who got wiped out. The woman's other seed refers to all other Israelites (Christians). The children are different from the woman because they lack political power. The woman was a nation. The children are merely an assortment of individuals.

                              The fact that the children lack centralized political power is why in the next chapter, the beast has victory over them — temporarily. After a time, times, and half a time, in chapter 14-15 the children gain victory over the beast. Specifically, Chapter 14 shows that they gain victory through the spread of the gospel. In Chapter 15-16, the victorious children summon angels to torment the beast with the seven last plagues. The beast is then finished off in Chapter 19. Then the millennium begins.

                              When the New Jerusalem later returns (Revelation 21) — which I take to be at the start of the millennium, not the end — it shows that Christians have obtained political power again. At that point, they will implement God's laws faithfully. At that point, individual Christians will be able to relax, and trust their community.

                              Isaiah 66:10-14
                              10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem,
                              and be glad with her, all ye that love her:
                              rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
                              11 that ye may suck,
                              and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
                              that ye may milk out,
                              and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
                              12 For thus saith the Lord,
                              Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
                              and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream:
                              then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides,
                              and be dandled upon her knees.
                              13 As one whom his mother comforteth,
                              so will I comfort you;
                              and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
                              14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice,
                              and your bones shall flourish like an herb:
                              and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants,
                              and his indignation toward his enemies.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Perhaps because (what seems to be) the source text in Isaiah distinguishes them ?

                                5 Hear the word of the Lord,
                                you who tremble at his word:
                                “Your own people who hate you,
                                and exclude you because of my name, have said,
                                ‘Let the Lord be glorified,
                                that we may see your joy!’
                                Yet they will be put to shame.
                                6 Hear that uproar from the city,
                                hear that noise from the temple!
                                It is the sound of the Lord
                                repaying his enemies all they deserve.


                                7 Before she goes into labor,
                                she gives birth;
                                before the pains come upon her,
                                she delivers a son.
                                8 Who has ever heard of such things?
                                Who has ever seen things like this?
                                Can a country be born in a day
                                or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
                                Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
                                than she gives birth to her children.
                                9 Do I bring to the moment of birth
                                and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
                                “Do I close up the womb
                                when I bring to delivery?” says your God.

                                10 “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
                                all you who love her;
                                rejoice greatly with her,
                                all you who mourn over her.
                                11 For you will nurse and be satisfied
                                at her comforting breasts;
                                you will drink deeply
                                and delight in her overflowing abundance.”

                                IOW, there is some overlap with what you post. A look at Biblehub may supply some interesting parallels to the verses in bold, as well as to St John’s own words.

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