Why distinguish the woman and her children

[Parakletos]

So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.

I did not say such. My point is that the words CHURCH, ZION, TEMPLE, "may" refer to leaders instead of the whole elect.

Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

[/quote]
Great subject, which is crucial in understanding the church.

And I want you to examine yourself how the whole elect could be brought about by two distinct women, as the prophecy said:

Gal 4:27
For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

Isa 54:1
Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

If you may, I would like to give your attention about Sarah and Hagar, the concept of salvation, and the prophesies to understand these things.

I am in an errand and will not be able to elaborate for now. But I hope you ask me about what I need to give special attention when I will explain these.

[Parakletos]

Hi Obsidian,

So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.

As I said initially, CHURCH, TEMPLE, ZION "may" refer to other things, other than the whole elect. Not only the words I just previously mentioned can have two or more references; even the words CHRIST, KINGDOM OF GOD, BABYLON, SEED, JERUSALEM, etc. Note itself of you quoting Gal 4:26 mentioning JERUSALEM as referring to our mother, instead of our city!

Is there a conflict? None at all. I have to remind you that the words of God are parables; they ought not be understood as plainly as how the letters say.

Take for example the word SEED. Ishmael is also a SEED of Abraham, Isaac is a SEED, but there is a SEED that is specifically referring to Christ. A basic understanding of SEED is "possessing the same righteousness with Abraham." Such meaning is applied to Ismael, Isaac and Jesus, and to all elect. But there are promises being attributed to the SEED that only Christ will be the beneficiary. So there is a difference when we refer of the SEED as the whole elect, and of the SEED referring to Christ. Unless a person understands the distinctions, he will not be able to understand what is being truly said in a passage. The same when we refer of the words CHURCH, TEMPLE, ZION, JERUSALEM, etc.

Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

Galatians 4:26
But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

You are misunderstanding me by applying my referral in general, instead of applying my referral in a limited way; as I said the word "may". That meant to say we ought not to use my reference of "leaders" in general, or on every time the word CHURCH, TEMPLE, or ZION is mentioned. Take for example the word SEED, it does not always refer to Christ. The word SEED "may" also refer of Ishmael, or Isaac, or even the whole elect.

Now let us examine Gal 4:26 and add verse 27 also. If you can understand what is being truly said in these passages, you would be able to understand, and know the answer to the question of your OP.

Gal 4:26-27
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

The words MOTHER and WOMAN may refer to a congregation. JERUSALEM as the mother of us all is referring to ALL the elect as a congregation, the CHURCH.

But verse 27, the women is speaking of specific congregations rather that speaking of the whole elect. Verse 27 refers of the prophecy regarding the congregations of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

But before we go to the prophecy, let us first understand who are the "barren" and "married" women. And bear in mind that the seed, meaning the elect, comes from both these women. Sarah, represents the married woman, and it represents Jerusalem, ultimately referring to the congregation of Jews. Hagar represents the desolate woman, being driven out to the wilderness. Hagar is also called "barren" not because of having no children, but of having no right to have the seed of Abraham. But how would we account Ishmael as a "seed" of Abraham? At the time of the Patriarch, the children of bondwomen from their masters, will be adopted as children of their female masters-- Take the example of the children of Jacob. The children from the bondwomen, that will become heirs, were adopted as children of their female masters, The children coming from the barren and desolate woman represents the elect from the gentiles.


Now consider the prophecy below of ZION, the woman, losing her children and then finding them again.


Isa 49:14-22
14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. .......... 20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. 21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been? 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.


It is clear in the prophecy that there will be a time when the woman have no children. But how then that the woman still remain and conversing with God? If the woman refers to the children of God, the woman would have had vanished also when the children of God had vanished. But we ought not to understand the prophecy that way. We have to understand these things as parables, or figurative. The woman, or the church, is simply personified and the passages speak of a time when the church lost her state of existince as a congregation. The woman that was referred as "married" had ceased as a congregation, and the congregation that will rise will come from the gentiles, which is then represented as the congregation from the "barren" or "desolate" woman. This scenario regards the church is corroborated by other prophecies.

The same kind of treatment should be used in interpreting the woman in revelation. Take for example that Rev 12:14 would not literally refer of the woman, as the church that was truly given wings and flew in the wilderness. We may refer of the woman indeed as the Church, but we do not literally hold the understanding that the Church really were taken in the wilderness. The woman is simply personifying the church just like the prophecy of Isa 49:14-22.

[Obsidian]

I haven't fully analyzed your post, but I think you are completely wrong when you say that Sarah is the "married woman" and Hagar the "desolate woman." In context, being desolate refers to being barren. Hagar was not barren; Sarah was.

I agree with this part:

It is clear in the prophecy that there will be a time when the woman have no children. But how then that the woman still remain and conversing with God? If the woman refers to the children of God, the woman would have had vanished also when the children of God had vanished. But we ought not to understand the prophecy that way. We have to understand these things as parables, or figurative. The woman, or the church, is simply personified and the passages speak of a time when the church lost her state of existince as a congregation. The woman that was referred as "married" had ceased as a congregation, and the congregation that will rise will come from the gentiles, which is then represented as the congregation from the "barren" or "desolate" woman. This scenario regards the church is corroborated by other prophecies.

And I also agree that the woman is not a literal woman, as you say:

The same kind of treatment should be used in interpreting the woman in revelation. Take for example that Rev 12:14 would not literally refer of the woman, as the church that was truly given wings and flew in the wilderness. We may refer of the woman indeed as the Church, but we do not literally hold the understanding that the Church really were taken in the wilderness. The woman is simply personifying the church just like the prophecy of Isa 49:14-22.

But as a practical matter, in saying this, I still don't feel like you really answer the question of what distinguishes the woman and her children. That is, we aren't much closer to saying what the prophecy actually means.

When it says that the woman is given eagle's wings, as far as I can tell this just means that the woman is strengthened at a point where otherwise she would be weary and perish:

Isaiah 40:29-31
He giveth power to the faint;
and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
and the young men shall utterly fall:
but they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not be weary;
and they shall walk, and not faint.

Personally, I am currently leaning toward this interpretation:

1. Israel gives birth to the Messiah (Child born of the woman with twelve crowns)
2. The Messiah's followers topple the spiritual powers that are upholding the Roman Empire, and indeed all pagan empires. (Michael casting Satan to earth)
3. With the loss of spiritual power, the Romans (via Satan) get desperate and try to stamp out the church with threats of death. (Dragon trying to eat the woman)
4. God gives strength to the church, so that this persecution fails. (Eagles wings)
5. Satan tries to corrupt the church with false doctrine. (Flood of water out of the dragon's mouth)
6. Only nominal Christians fall for the lies. ("Earth" swallowing the water)
7. Satan changes his strategy from persecuting the church as an entity, to trying to torment and corrupt individual believers. (War against the children)
8. Another empire rises up which is not overtly Satanic/pagan, but which nonetheless carries out this strategy because the devil is covertly behind it. (Beast from the sea, empowered by the dragon)
9. Another entity (or possibly another empire) gives a pretend Christian mask to this empire, which speaks doctrines of devils. (Beast from the earth)

The sea is noted to refer to the gentiles in Isaiah 23:11, 42:10, and 60:5.

Isaiah 60:5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together,
and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged;
because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee,
the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Although the reference is more tenuous, the subject of 'earth' in Isaiah 51 seems to refer to God, or else to people who follow after God.

Isaiah 51:1-2
Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness,
ye that seek the Lord:
look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Look unto Abraham your father,
and unto Sarah that bare you:
for I called him alone,
and blessed him, and increased him.

So the difference between the woman and the children would be that the children are individuals who are persecuted by Satan, in contrast to the church as an entity (the woman) being persecuted.

[Parakletos]

I haven't fully analyzed your post, but I think you are completely wrong when you say that Sarah is the "married woman" and Hagar the "desolate woman." In context, being desolate refers to being barren. Hagar was not barren; Sarah was.

The words "married", "desolate", and "barren" are spiritual, not physical, references for the church. Even Sara and Hagar is no more referred to the physical women: Sara and Hagar, but of the churches, or congregations.

The words are parables, we should not understand them literally.

I agree with this part:

And I also agree that the woman is not a literal woman, as you say:

But as a practical matter, in saying this, I still don't feel like you really answer the question of what distinguishes the woman and her children. That is, we aren't much closer to saying what the prophecy actually means.

The distinctions will come through understanding the parables, not by literally distinguishing the words used. For example, the woman and her children is practically the same. But there is a specific message why the woman is made distinct to his children. There is a point in a prophecy where the children were gone, and thus the kingdom of God did not exist(Isaiah 49:20). But there is also a prophesy that the kingdom of God will continue forever (Dan 2:44, Isa 9:7). So here you have to give the proper understanding who the woman is referred, and who the children are. The "woman" referred in Revelation is speaking in terms of the kingdom that will continue forever, and the children refer to the "leaders." The cessation of the kingdom of God does not necessarily end by the physical death of its rulers, nor the dissolve of the congregation. The kingdom of God, as taught in the parables, exist in different ways. Even as Christ said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Another one example, not because the man child was born by the woman, does not mean that the child is not Christ. You might argue and say, "Jesus is
the bridegroom of the woman, therefore he is not the child born by the woman." No, the man child born by the woman was the same who is also presented as the bridegroom of the woman.

When it says that the woman is given eagle's wings, as far as I can tell this just means that the woman is strengthened at a point where otherwise she would be weary and perish:

Isaiah 40:29-31
He giveth power to the faint;
and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
and the young men shall utterly fall:
but they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
they shall run, and not be weary;
and they shall walk, and not faint.

Again you must understand the parables and not rely on the specific words used. The woman that was spoken is not specifically speaking of a congregation, but in terms of the kingdom of God, that exist differently than as a congregation. Now, as we learn in the prophesy, the woman had lost her children, referring of the Jewish Christian leaders. When the Jewish Christian leaders were overcomed by the Devil, the woman was therefore like lost, or seems none existent, as described by being in the wilderness.

Personally, I am currently leaning toward this interpretation:

1. Israel gives birth to the Messiah (Child born of the woman with twelve crowns)

I agree.

2. The Messiah's followers topple the spiritual powers that are upholding the Roman Empire, and indeed all pagan empires. (Michael casting Satan to earth)
3. With the loss of spiritual power, the Romans (via Satan) get desperate and try to stamp out the church with threats of death. (Dragon trying to eat the woman)

These things are observed in spiritual way, not in physical ways. We may differ greatly on understanding how these things happens.

4. God gives strength to the church, so that this persecution fails. (Eagles wings)

The church(Jewish congregation) was overcomed by the beast, this was the time the church was given eagle's wing and fled to wilderness.

5. Satan tries to corrupt the church with false doctrine. (Flood of water out of the dragon's mouth)
6. Only nominal Christians fall for the lies. ("Earth" swallowing the water)
7. Satan changes his strategy from persecuting the church as an entity, to trying to torment and corrupt individual believers. (War against the children)
8. Another empire rises up which is not overtly Satanic/pagan, but which nonetheless carries out this strategy because the devil is covertly behind it. (Beast from the sea, empowered by the dragon)
9. Another entity (or possibly another empire) gives a pretend Christian mask to this empire, which speaks doctrines of devils. (Beast from the earth)

These above events happened to the Jewish congregation, until the Jewish congregation were overcome by the beast.

The sea is noted to refer to the gentiles in Isaiah 23:11, 42:10, and 60:5.

Isaiah 60:5
Then thou shalt see, and flow together,
and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged;
because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee,
the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.

Although the reference is more tenuous, the subject of 'earth' in Isaiah 51 seems to refer to God, or else to people who follow after God.

Isaiah 51:1-2
Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness,
ye that seek the Lord:
look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Look unto Abraham your father,
and unto Sarah that bare you:
for I called him alone,
and blessed him, and increased him.

You are missing a big part of prohesies, especially of the rise of the Gentiles. As said to Jesus: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

You are missing the blindness of Israel, the prophecy about the people from the isles, etc.

So the difference between the woman and the children would be that the children are individuals who are persecuted by Satan, in contrast to the church as an entity (the woman) being persecuted.

Quite close enough.

However, I seem to infer that you are not wary that the children persecuted were persecuted were all killed, or overcomed by the the beast. And this is what the prophesies say:


20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, ........Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. Isa 49:20-22

[Obsidian]

Isaiah doesn't say that any children are going to be killed. It's just saying that the woman is childless because by the time of Jesus, very few real believers were left in Israel. There weren't any 'children' around to follow the religion. Ultimately some more children came about through revival, and many of them were gentiles.

Regarding the beast: There is nothing in Revelation 12 about any "beast" killing Jews, or even about any beast at all. Further, in neither 12 nor 13 is there anything about anyone being given eagle's wings to hide from a beast. Rather, the beast only occurs after the eagle's wings, and after the woman is safe, and basically after all of the dragon's efforts have failed. The beast only goes after the children. And I highly doubt that the "children" refer specifically to the Jews. If anything, I think the "children" probably refers to people of all nations and tongues, as described in Revelation 7:9 and also the passage in Isaiah that you cited.

The woman that was spoken is not specifically speaking of a congregation, but in terms of the kingdom of God, that exist differently than as a congregation.

I never said that the woman was "a" congregation, as in a single congregation. I agree that it is the kingdom of the righteous. But I don't know what you are trying to say, when you distinguish the "kingdom of God" from the word I used -- "church." I meant that the woman represents all the churches as organizations, as opposed to all individual Christians.

[Parakletos]

Isaiah doesn't say that any children are going to be killed. It's just saying that the woman is childless because by the time of Jesus, very few real believers were left in Israel. There weren't any 'children' around to follow the religion. Ultimately some more children came about through revival, and many of them were gentiles.

Regarding the beast: There is nothing in Revelation 12 about any "beast" killing Jews, or even about any beast at all. Further, in neither 12 nor 13 is there anything about anyone being given eagle's wings to hide from a beast. Rather, the beast only occurs after the eagle's wings, and after the woman is safe, and basically after all of the dragon's efforts have failed. The beast only goes after the children. And I highly doubt that the "children" refer specifically to the Jews. If anything, I think the "children" probably refers to people of all nations and tongues, as described in Revelation 7:9 and also the passage in Isaiah that you cited.

As much as possible, we should consider ALL prophecies to understand the events to come. The more prophecies we know, the more precise we would be.

First, Israel will not be gathered, that is how, and why, the Gentiles will come in.

5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isa 49:5-6

And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; TO IT SHALL THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious. Isa 11:10

This is where we draw the mystery of the "barren" and the "married", as if we are now speaking of two women, or two churches, or two kingdoms. Prophecies are uttered in parables, the words in the parables can easily be mixed up by other reference of the word in other parables. Same words would not exactly mean the same in other parables. The used of the words "barren" and "married" women is only used to distinguished the origin of the children, though as Paul said, "Jerusalem is the mother of all." The married woman is where the Jews come from, while the barren woman represents the Gentiles. Israel is the one espoused to God, not the Gentiles.

The church then were under the Jews, and majority of prophesied in Revelation is speaking to the Jews. There will be a HALT if sealing among the Jews because Israel will not be gathered and fall into blindness (Rom 11:25). The fate of the children of the woman(which was then under the Jews) being persecuted will be death, and ultimately be "subjected" to the beast.

And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:7

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Rev 13:7

And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 6:11

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rom 8:36

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:21

And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. Dan 8:24

As I said in my previous post, the children which were referred are rulers. The death of the rulers does not meant the death of the church. However, there will be no legitimate congregation while the holy people were subjected to the power of the beast. And also, there will be blindness that will happen to the people (Amos 8:11-14). So this will explain of the woman being weak, and in the state of being lost in the wilderness, and of her need of "weaning."


Now, the Church will rise again through the Gentiles. The loss of children implies loss of leaders. The bringing up again of the children will now come through the Gentiles (Isa 49:20-22). This is understood by the apostles then, as discussed by James in the council at Jerusalem:

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the GENTILES, TO TAKE OUT OF THEM A PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:14-17

At this time Christ will be more "glorious" (Isa 11:10). Simply because, unlike what happened in Israel(married woman) where there were few that were gathered, and was defeated by the beast. The Gentiles(barren woman) will have more children (Isa 54:1), and as said in the prophecy:

And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. Jer 31:40

The prophecy above speaks of the reconfigured/renewed Jerusalem, which will happens at the reign of the Gentiles. The prophecy to Israel says: "......Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land. (Jer 45:4)"

I never said that the woman was "a" congregation, as in a single congregation. I agree that it is the kingdom of the righteous.

As I said in the beginning of this post, and I implied from the previous post, that same words in prophesies may have distinctions. Look at how the parables describe the "kingdom of God." So there is no basic way to understand what the kingdom of God is. The referred kingdom of God in a parable/prophecy is determined according to the message. Same when we speak of the woman. You claimed that the woman to be Israel, yet even Israel does not necessarily refer to the nation, and Israel can even mean to all the elect. The spiritual reference of the word Israel is not only one. And woman, as I have explained above, may also be used as reference of origin, or congregation.

But I don't know what you are trying to say, when you distinguish the "kingdom of God" from the word I used -- "church."

The words "woman", "kingdom of God" and "church" may refer to all the elect. Defending on what is being communicated about the elect, the specific word is used. When the word "church" is used, it has to do with the elect as the the temple of God. When it is referred as a "woman" it has to do with the elect's marriage to God, and of the law. When the word "kingdom of God" is used, it has to do with God's sovereignty and authority. When it is represented as a "mother" it has to do with origin

I meant that the woman represents all the churches as organizations, as opposed to all individual Christians.

The church cannot represent "churches as organizations." The whole elect is itself presented as a temple, the hierarchies are link to one another. The church, in every spiritual meaning, has in essence only referring to the elect. You can never refer the whole christendom as the "woman" or the "church" that is of God. Any church that is not ruled by an elect is not a member of the church of God, regardless it call itself "The Church of God." But a church which is ruled by an elect, will save everyone that submits unto it (Matt 10:41).

[Obsidian]

There are several points in your interpretation that do not make sense.

You still say that the "married woman" refers to the Jews. In reality, Paul uses the married woman to refer to Hagar, and the barren woman to refer to Sarah.

Galatians 4:25-27
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

It is true that the so-called "Jews" that claimed to follow after the covenant of Mount Sinai were then compared to Hagar. However, that is only because they rejected Christ. So they were physical descendants of Abraham, but that was all they were. In contrast, Sarah (the barren) was related to Christ because God had specifically promised that Sarah would give birth to Christ's lineage. Therefore, it is not the "gentiles" who are children of the barren, as you say. It is anyone who believes in Christ that is children of the barren.

You also say that the "children" refers to church leaders. I don't see where in the world you are getting this from.

You claimed that the woman to be Israel, yet even Israel does not necessarily refer to the nation, and Israel can even mean to all the elect.

Israel refers to a nation, but the passage is teaching that believers in Christ, whether Jew or gentile, are actually the legitimate descendants of Israel. In Revelation 7 the 144,000 or "multitude" is specifically said to come from all nations and tongues. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14, where they have gained victory over the beast. I think the "children" and the 144,000 are the same. They are brothers of Christ and descendants of Israel.

There will be a HALT if sealing among the Jews because Israel will not be gathered and fall into blindness (Rom 11:25).

I don't see where Revelation actually addresses that issue.

The church then were under the Jews, and majority of prophesied in Revelation is speaking to the Jews.

Revelation seems to be written to people living in Turkey and Greece, who seem to be representative of the kingdom of God as a whole.

Regarding your jumping around to various OT passages such as Amos and Jeremiah, if you're going to do that then I think you need to provide more expansive or clearer argument for why those passages actually are talking about the subject at hand.

However, there will be no legitimate congregation while the holy people were subjected to the power of the beast. And also, there will be blindness that will happen to the people (Amos 8:11-14). So this will explain of the woman being weak, and in the state of being lost in the wilderness, and of her need of "weaning."

The passage doesn't say anything about the woman needing weaning. Also, if she is weak at all, the weakness seems to derive from persecution. And it does not say that there will be no legitimate congregation.

The "blindness" that are referring to from Amos (actually it is more of a "drought" than blindness) refers to Israel's departure from God leading up until the time of Christ. It is not referring to the church age. That's why in the following chapter, Amos 9 (quoted in Acts 15), it talks about rebuilding David's tabernacle which refers to Christianity.

[Parakletos]

There are several points in your interpretation that do not make sense.

I understand your confusion. You are somehow limited yourself in understanding prophesies by your limited knowledge of prophesies. As I have previously told you, the more prophecies we know, the more precise we are in viewing the events of the prophecies.

I indeed lacked explanation, but I am impressing in my response my complicated stances by mentioning various prophecies.

Now, I will try to give more detailed explanations in my responses.

You still say that the "married woman" refers to the Jews. In reality, Paul uses the married woman to refer to Hagar, and the barren woman to refer to Sarah.

Galatians 4:25-27
For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

It is true that the so-called "Jews" that claimed to follow after the covenant of Mount Sinai were then compared to Hagar. However, that is only because they rejected Christ. So they were physical descendants of Abraham, but that was all they were. In contrast, Sarah (the barren) was related to Christ because God had specifically promised that Sarah would give birth to Christ's lineage. Therefore, it is not the "gentiles" who are children of the barren, as you say. It is anyone who believes in Christ that is children of the barren.

No, it is not the Israelites rejection that made them in bondage, rather it is because they were under the law of Moses at that time.

You also say that the "children" refers to church leaders. I don't see where in the world you are getting this from.

It is not openly stated but it is simply implied by mere understanding the structure of the kingdom of God. And simply, not all people in the kingdom of God are priests and kings. Those who are called to be heirs will be kings and priests.

The promise to Abraham was that in his "seed" shall all the families of the earth will be blessed. The seed, is the heir, and is distinct to all the families of the earth. The seed which was, as supposed, Israel, was the nation anointed to be handling the authorities to be given of God (Rom 9:4). But obviously, even in Israel, not all were given the authority of priest and kings. And so, though the elect were promised to be a nation of kings and priests, not all who are part of the nation will indeed be king and priest. Not all who were given the promises belong to the "seed."

Israel refers to a nation, but the passage is teaching that believers in Christ, whether Jew or gentile, are actually the legitimate descendants of Israel.

In Revelation 7 the 144,000 or "multitude" is specifically said to come from all nations and tongues. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14, where they have gained victory over the beast. I think the "children" and the 144,000 are the same. They are brothers of Christ and descendants of Israel.

I don't see where Revelation actually addresses that issue.

till

Revelation seems to be written to people living in Turkey and Greece, who seem to be representative of the kingdom of God as a whole.

Regarding your jumping around to various OT passages such as Amos and Jeremiah, if you're going to do that then I think you need to provide more expansive or clearer argument for why those passages actually are talking about the subject at hand.

I understand that I need more explanations. But the prophecies are given to us like pieces of a Jigsaw puzzle. Somehow there is a way we can figure as to where a puzzle must belong through a help of the picture of the puzzle. And without the picture of the puzzle, I could not convince you why a certain piece of a puzzle may be placed.

In our situation, you do not have a picture of the puzzle of the prophecies, so you can see how limited my effectiveness is unto you. Also, the mystery of the kingdom of God is not known to everyone. And also, some have no knowledge of the doctrines of truth. These have an impact in understanding prophecies.

It is actually very hard for anyone to understand the prophecies. Understanding prophecies are one of the gifts of God. And those who understand prophecies have the office of prophets or higher authority in the kingdom of God.

The passage doesn't say anything about the woman needing weaning. Also, if she is weak at all, the weakness seems to derive from persecution.

And it does not say that there will be no legitimate congregation.

You are relying solely on the passages of Revelation, and you do not know how the passages are related to other prophecies. I mentioned to you prophesies that will lead you to understand the about the legitimate congregation, but I understand why my mentioning of those prophecies are turning futile to you. You do not have a picture of the Jigsaw puzzle where I draw my conclusions on the pieces of the puzzle.

The "blindness" that are referring to from Amos (actually it is more of a "drought" than blindness) refers to Israel's departure from God leading up until the time of Christ. It is not referring to the church age. That's why in the following chapter, Amos 9 (quoted in Acts 15), it talks about rebuilding David's tabernacle which refers to Christianity.

[Marta]

Found some info on Revelation 12:1-17:

Vayeshev eleven starseleven stars Eleven stars.Twelve Tribes of Israel. Eleven . . . ."

This song, stated by Zunz in "G. V." p. 133
to occur only in (Jerman Pesah haggadahs since the
fifteenth century, was later found by Zunz him-
self in the Avignon ritual as a festal table-song
for holy-days in general ("Allg. Zeitung des Ju-
denthums," iii. 469).

*****

Commentary - 12 tribes of Israel. Was there a reason for listing 11 and not 12? Information is listed as the following: " Rabbi Nehemiah taught that Reuben reasoned that he was the firstborn and he alone would be held responsible for the crime. The Rabbis taught that Reuben reasoned that Joseph had included Reuben with his brethren in Joseph's dream of the sun and the moon and the eleven stars in Genesis 37:9, when Reuben thought that he had been expelled from the company of his brothers on account of the incident of Genesis 35:22. Because Joseph counted Reuben as a brother, Reuben felt motivated to rescue Joseph. And since Reuben was the first to engage in life saving, God decreed that the Cities of Refuge would be set up first within the borders of the Tribe of Reuben in Deuteronomy 4:43.[79]"

Also, Psalms 8 is connected to this passage - What is man that you are mindful of him? - When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?

[Parakletos]

Also, Psalms 8 is connected to this passage - What is man that you are mindful of him? - When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?

The spiritual meaning of the words "moon" and "stars" are related to the holy people of God. But one should not mix up the interpretation of referring to the moon and stars during Joseph's time to other period of time.

[Marta]

Referencing to the above post - Post # 7 didn't attach on.

Apostoli:
Well!!! There is a problem if the woman is symbolic of either of the nations Israel or Judah. OT symbolism has it that Israel was an adulterous and Judah was a harlot. The consequence: her offspring would be born as a result of harlotry and thus blemished = unacceptable as a champion of God.

Imo, the best we can assume is that the woman is of the seed of Jacob.

Consider Joseph's dream at Genesis 37:9. It is generally agreed that in the symbolism of the dream: Jacob=the sun, Rachel=the moon, and Jacob's twelve sons=the twelve stars. In Joseph's dream all of these did obeisance to him. In A.John's vision the woman is clothed with the sun (Jacob), which indicates that from her a nation and a king would arise (cp. Genesis 35:11), but more importantly all of God's promises to Abraham & Isaac would flow from her offspring (cp. Genesis 35:12). The moon (Rachel) is under her feet, which I take to mean the redundancy of Israel & Judah. Upon her head is a crown of twelve stars (Jacobs sons). Presumably, the twelve stars as her crown represent Jesus' twelve disciples, the spiritual sons of the woman (cp. John 19:26).

The dream only include 11 stars and not 12, "Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

[Rushing Jaws]

26But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.27EJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR;
FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE
THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND28And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.30AST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN31

[Rushing Jaws]

Referencing to the above post - Post # 7 didn't attach on.



The dream only include 11 stars and not 12, "Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."

[Obsidian]

Isaiah 66:10-14
10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem,
and be glad with her, all ye that love her:
rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 that ye may suck,
and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations;
that ye may milk out,
and be delighted with the abundance of her glory.
12 For thus saith the Lord,
Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river,
and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream:
then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides,
and be dandled upon her knees.
13 As one whom his mother comforteth,
so will I comfort you;
and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem.
14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice,
and your bones shall flourish like an herb:
and the hand of the Lord shall be known toward his servants,
and his indignation toward his enemies.

[Rushing Jaws]

Perhaps because (what seems to be) the source text in Isaiah distinguishes them ?

5 6 Hear that uproar from the city,
hear that noise from the temple!
It is the sound of the Lord
repaying his enemies all they deserve.

7 Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
8 Who has ever heard of such things?
Who has ever seen things like this?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
9
10 11