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Thread: Why distinguish the woman and her children

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Isaiah doesn't say that any children are going to be killed. It's just saying that the woman is childless because by the time of Jesus, very few real believers were left in Israel. There weren't any 'children' around to follow the religion. Ultimately some more children came about through revival, and many of them were gentiles.

    Regarding the beast: There is nothing in Revelation 12 about any "beast" killing Jews, or even about any beast at all. Further, in neither 12 nor 13 is there anything about anyone being given eagle's wings to hide from a beast. Rather, the beast only occurs after the eagle's wings, and after the woman is safe, and basically after all of the dragon's efforts have failed. The beast only goes after the children. And I highly doubt that the "children" refer specifically to the Jews. If anything, I think the "children" probably refers to people of all nations and tongues, as described in Revelation 7:9 and also the passage in Isaiah that you cited.
    As much as possible, we should consider ALL prophecies to understand the events to come. The more prophecies we know, the more precise we would be.

    First, Israel will not be gathered, that is how, and why, the Gentiles will come in.

    5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, THOUGH ISRAEL BE NOT GATHERED, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. 6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Isa 49:5-6

    And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; TO IT SHALL THE GENTILES SEEK: and his rest shall be glorious. Isa 11:10


    This is where we draw the mystery of the "barren" and the "married", as if we are now speaking of two women, or two churches, or two kingdoms. Prophecies are uttered in parables, the words in the parables can easily be mixed up by other reference of the word in other parables. Same words would not exactly mean the same in other parables. The used of the words "barren" and "married" women is only used to distinguished the origin of the children, though as Paul said, "Jerusalem is the mother of all." The married woman is where the Jews come from, while the barren woman represents the Gentiles. Israel is the one espoused to God, not the Gentiles.

    The church then were under the Jews, and majority of prophesied in Revelation is speaking to the Jews. There will be a HALT if sealing among the Jews because Israel will not be gathered and fall into blindness (Rom 11:25). The fate of the children of the woman(which was then under the Jews) being persecuted will be death, and ultimately be "subjected" to the beast.

    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Rev 11:7

    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. Rev 13:7

    And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Rev 6:11

    As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Rom 8:36

    I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Dan 7:21

    And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. Dan 8:24


    As I said in my previous post, the children which were referred are rulers. The death of the rulers does not meant the death of the church. However, there will be no legitimate congregation while the holy people were subjected to the power of the beast. And also, there will be blindness that will happen to the people (Amos 8:11-14). So this will explain of the woman being weak, and in the state of being lost in the wilderness, and of her need of "weaning."


    Now, the Church will rise again through the Gentiles. The loss of children implies loss of leaders. The bringing up again of the children will now come through the Gentiles (Isa 49:20-22). This is understood by the apostles then, as discussed by James in the council at Jerusalem:

    14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the GENTILES, TO TAKE OUT OF THEM A PEOPLE FOR HIS NAME. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:14-17

    At this time Christ will be more "glorious" (Isa 11:10). Simply because, unlike what happened in Israel(married woman) where there were few that were gathered, and was defeated by the beast. The Gentiles(barren woman) will have more children (Isa 54:1), and as said in the prophecy:

    And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. Jer 31:40

    The prophecy above speaks of the reconfigured/renewed Jerusalem, which will happens at the reign of the Gentiles. The prophecy to Israel says: "......Behold, that which I have built will I break down, and that which I have planted I will pluck up, even this whole land. (Jer 45:4)"


    I never said that the woman was "a" congregation, as in a single congregation. I agree that it is the kingdom of the righteous.
    As I said in the beginning of this post, and I implied from the previous post, that same words in prophesies may have distinctions. Look at how the parables describe the "kingdom of God." So there is no basic way to understand what the kingdom of God is. The referred kingdom of God in a parable/prophecy is determined according to the message. Same when we speak of the woman. You claimed that the woman to be Israel, yet even Israel does not necessarily refer to the nation, and Israel can even mean to all the elect. The spiritual reference of the word Israel is not only one. And woman, as I have explained above, may also be used as reference of origin, or congregation.


    But I don't know what you are trying to say, when you distinguish the "kingdom of God" from the word I used -- "church."
    The words "woman", "kingdom of God" and "church" may refer to all the elect. Defending on what is being communicated about the elect, the specific word is used. When the word "church" is used, it has to do with the elect as the the temple of God. When it is referred as a "woman" it has to do with the elect's marriage to God, and of the law. When the word "kingdom of God" is used, it has to do with God's sovereignty and authority. When it is represented as a "mother" it has to do with origin


    I meant that the woman represents all the churches as organizations, as opposed to all individual Christians.
    The church cannot represent "churches as organizations." The whole elect is itself presented as a temple, the hierarchies are link to one another. The church, in every spiritual meaning, has in essence only referring to the elect. You can never refer the whole christendom as the "woman" or the "church" that is of God. Any church that is not ruled by an elect is not a member of the church of God, regardless it call itself "The Church of God." But a church which is ruled by an elect, will save everyone that submits unto it (Matt 10:41).
    Last edited by Parakletos; 10-18-2016 at 10:38 PM.

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    There are several points in your interpretation that do not make sense.

    You still say that the "married woman" refers to the Jews. In reality, Paul uses the married woman to refer to Hagar, and the barren woman to refer to Sarah.

    Galatians 4:25-27
    For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


    It is true that the so-called "Jews" that claimed to follow after the covenant of Mount Sinai were then compared to Hagar. However, that is only because they rejected Christ. So they were physical descendants of Abraham, but that was all they were. In contrast, Sarah (the barren) was related to Christ because God had specifically promised that Sarah would give birth to Christ's lineage. Therefore, it is not the "gentiles" who are children of the barren, as you say. It is anyone who believes in Christ that is children of the barren.

    You also say that the "children" refers to church leaders. I don't see where in the world you are getting this from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Parakletos
    You claimed that the woman to be Israel, yet even Israel does not necessarily refer to the nation, and Israel can even mean to all the elect.
    Israel refers to a nation, but the passage is teaching that believers in Christ, whether Jew or gentile, are actually the legitimate descendants of Israel. In Revelation 7 the 144,000 or "multitude" is specifically said to come from all nations and tongues. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14, where they have gained victory over the beast. I think the "children" and the 144,000 are the same. They are brothers of Christ and descendants of Israel.

    There will be a HALT if sealing among the Jews because Israel will not be gathered and fall into blindness (Rom 11:25).
    I don't see where Revelation actually addresses that issue.

    The church then were under the Jews, and majority of prophesied in Revelation is speaking to the Jews.
    Revelation seems to be written to people living in Turkey and Greece, who seem to be representative of the kingdom of God as a whole.

    Regarding your jumping around to various OT passages such as Amos and Jeremiah, if you're going to do that then I think you need to provide more expansive or clearer argument for why those passages actually are talking about the subject at hand.

    However, there will be no legitimate congregation while the holy people were subjected to the power of the beast. And also, there will be blindness that will happen to the people (Amos 8:11-14). So this will explain of the woman being weak, and in the state of being lost in the wilderness, and of her need of "weaning."
    The passage doesn't say anything about the woman needing weaning. Also, if she is weak at all, the weakness seems to derive from persecution. And it does not say that there will be no legitimate congregation.

    The "blindness" that are referring to from Amos (actually it is more of a "drought" than blindness) refers to Israel's departure from God leading up until the time of Christ. It is not referring to the church age. That's why in the following chapter, Amos 9 (quoted in Acts 15), it talks about rebuilding David's tabernacle which refers to Christianity.
    Last edited by Obsidian; 10-19-2016 at 05:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    There are several points in your interpretation that do not make sense.
    I understand your confusion. You are somehow limited yourself in understanding prophesies by your limited knowledge of prophesies. As I have previously told you, the more prophecies we know, the more precise we are in viewing the events of the prophecies.

    I indeed lacked explanation, but I am impressing in my response my complicated stances by mentioning various prophecies.

    Now, I will try to give more detailed explanations in my responses.


    You still say that the "married woman" refers to the Jews. In reality, Paul uses the married woman to refer to Hagar, and the barren woman to refer to Sarah.

    Galatians 4:25-27
    For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


    It is true that the so-called "Jews" that claimed to follow after the covenant of Mount Sinai were then compared to Hagar. However, that is only because they rejected Christ. So they were physical descendants of Abraham, but that was all they were. In contrast, Sarah (the barren) was related to Christ because God had specifically promised that Sarah would give birth to Christ's lineage. Therefore, it is not the "gentiles" who are children of the barren, as you say. It is anyone who believes in Christ that is children of the barren.
    No, it is not the Israelites rejection that made them in bondage, rather it is because they were under the law of Moses at that time.

    Meaning of “bondage”
    The basic implication of being in “bondage” is of a person’s burden to “work” to earn benefits or wages. Such is the personhood of Hagar being a “servant” Those in bondage also represents those under the law; for by the law is earning the benefits/wages from God through works. Mount Sinai represents those in bondage, like Agar, because Mount Sinai represents the receiving of the law. Thus, when Israel was under the law, it answers to Hagar, which was then the Jerusalem in bondage because of being under the law.

    In contrast, the elect have legitimate mother, thus they receive the benefits as heirs. The heirs do not work for benefits, they are expected to receive by virtue as heirs. The elect’s mother therefore represent the married woman, Sarah. This is the reason Sarah represents the children of the free, also the Jerusalem that is free. The elect are not under the law. The elect do not work to gain the benefits from God, it is given to them through grace.

    The bondage issue was also figuratively shadowed through Jacob and Esau. Jacob and Esau represents two nations. Jacob, who was later called Israel, was the one who was to receive the promises. Esau, was also blessed, but he will be a “servant” of Jacob/Israel, saying, “the elder shall serve the younger.”

    The two nations of heir and servant is initially shadowed in Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael is the son of a servant, while Isaac is a son of the free woman.

    Meaning of “barren”
    The barrenness have nothing to do of Sarah’s barrenness. The issue of barrenness is about unable to produce “legitimate” heir. Such was the state of Hagar being the servant. Hagar’s son, Ishmael, is not a heir regardless he was also a seed of Abraham. This is also shadowed in Jacob and Esau. Jacob/Israel is the nation of heirs, Esau have no part of the promises and is a servant of Jacob/Israel. Thus, the servant mother was the barren because she can’t bear a legitimate heir.

    Now, Paul’s main point in Galatians 4 is to identify the children who are the true heirs. And Paul’s main point of distinguishing Sarah and Hagar are to distinguish those under the covenant of the law to those under the covenant of grace. Of which the heirs are counted from those under the covenant of grace.

    Now, Paul’s main point of distinguishing the “Jerusalem which is ABOVE” to the “Jerusalem which is NOW” is to stress that the true Israel, or the heirs, will come from both Sara and Hagar. Paul’s words “mother of us all” implies that the children will both come from Sara and Hagar. And Paul support his implication by the prophecy he laid in verse 27, a prophecy that is written in Isaiah 54. The message of the prophecy is that there will be more number of legitimate children from the barren(gendering Hagar/Gentiles) than of the married(gendering Sara/Jews).

    The fact that the “Jerusalem which is now,” which refer to the Israelites, were in bondage, and is representation of Hagar, only implies that the nation of Israel cannot be the basis of being the children and heirs. And what Paul referred as “Jerusalem which is above” is neither the women represented by Sara nor Hagar. Sara and Hagar were only used to represent the distinctions of the origin/affiliation of the elect in terms of being Jews or Gentiles, and of those under the law or grace, and of servant and free. The representation of “Jerusalem which is now” of Hagar calls the attention of judging the heirs not by their affiliations/origins, calling us to judge which is the true Israel or not. And so, we judge that the true Israel is not only the Jews; that those who are truthfully under the law is not literally those who receive the law; and that the truthfully children of the free is not literally referring of the Jews.


    You also say that the "children" refers to church leaders. I don't see where in the world you are getting this from.
    It is not openly stated but it is simply implied by mere understanding the structure of the kingdom of God. And simply, not all people in the kingdom of God are priests and kings. Those who are called to be heirs will be kings and priests.

    The promise to Abraham was that in his "seed" shall all the families of the earth will be blessed. The seed, is the heir, and is distinct to all the families of the earth. The seed which was, as supposed, Israel, was the nation anointed to be handling the authorities to be given of God (Rom 9:4). But obviously, even in Israel, not all were given the authority of priest and kings. And so, though the elect were promised to be a nation of kings and priests, not all who are part of the nation will indeed be king and priest. Not all who were given the promises belong to the "seed."



    Israel refers to a nation, but the passage is teaching that believers in Christ, whether Jew or gentile, are actually the legitimate descendants of Israel.
    My point is that we apply the necessary meaning. Israel as a nation is indeed distinct to the believers in Christ, and also different if we refer of Israel as the elect rather than just believers. We apply the right meaning according to the message being proclaimed. Sometimes a word carries multiple meaning, example is of Paul using the word Jerusalem in Galatians 4:25-27. Paul referred of “Jerusalem which is now” to the literal nation, and the spiritual representation of Mount Sinai. But what he referred as “Jerusalem which is above” is not the literal Israel but rather the elect.


    In Revelation 7 the 144,000 or "multitude" is specifically said to come from all nations and tongues. The 144,000 appear again in Revelation 14, where they have gained victory over the beast. I think the "children" and the 144,000 are the same. They are brothers of Christ and descendants of Israel.
    The 144,000 is clearly the Israelites (Rev 7:4-8). In Revelation 14:4, the 144,000 were distinguished as the “firstfruits.” The firstfruits are distinguished from other elect at Christ’s coming (1Cor 15:23). Spiritually speaking, there are two harvesting periods. So one can get the gist that the firstfruits belongs to the first harvesting period. Also, James count himself, as one of the firstfruits (James 1:18).

    The events in verses from Rev 7:9 and forward do not necessarily meant it happens right away after the sealing of the 144,000. There is part of the prophecies of a period when the holy people are defeated and subjected to the enemy. But when it speaks of those people from verse 9 and forward they will not suffer anymore tribulation. (verses16-17).

    Further explanations is related to your proceeding question.

    I don't see where Revelation actually addresses that issue.
    You must note what the angel said: “Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants….” It thus implies from the angel’s words that after the sealing of the 144,000 the four angels will lose the four winds of the earth that will hurt the earth and the sea. So after the sealing of the 144,000 there will be tribulation on earth and the sea. But the people referred from Revelation 7:9 and forward will be at peace (verses 16-17).

    I have already told you that it is prophesied that Israel will not be gathered at Christ’s coming, and for which reason the Gentiles will come into view. It also says in the prophesy that a “remnant” shall return, which is contrary to what it says in verse 9 where the people are “a great multitude, which no man could number.”

    The realization of a great multitude coming to Christ will only happen in the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy in Revelation 11:15 that says: “The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Also, the Lord said unto Christ, “…Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.” The Lord’s words to Christ implies that Christ will remain in God’s right hand until the prophecy in Revelation 11:15 is fulfilled, a time when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdom of God and Christ, a time where Christ’s enemies are subdued unto him.

    So, in conclusion, the 144,000 is distinct to the great multitude, which no man could number. And these groups were separated by a period of tribulation.

    Revelation seems to be written to people living in Turkey and Greece, who seem to be representative of the kingdom of God as a whole.
    All Scriptures are written for the elects’ learning, with that said, your argument is too weak for consideration. The messages will itself point us to whom the messages are for.

    Regarding your jumping around to various OT passages such as Amos and Jeremiah, if you're going to do that then I think you need to provide more expansive or clearer argument for why those passages actually are talking about the subject at hand.
    I understand that I need more explanations. But the prophecies are given to us like pieces of a Jigsaw puzzle. Somehow there is a way we can figure as to where a puzzle must belong through a help of the picture of the puzzle. And without the picture of the puzzle, I could not convince you why a certain piece of a puzzle may be placed.

    In our situation, you do not have a picture of the puzzle of the prophecies, so you can see how limited my effectiveness is unto you. Also, the mystery of the kingdom of God is not known to everyone. And also, some have no knowledge of the doctrines of truth. These have an impact in understanding prophecies.

    It is actually very hard for anyone to understand the prophecies. Understanding prophecies are one of the gifts of God. And those who understand prophecies have the office of prophets or higher authority in the kingdom of God.

    The passage doesn't say anything about the woman needing weaning. Also, if she is weak at all, the weakness seems to derive from persecution.
    Rev 12:6 talked of the woman being “feed.” The only meaning we can derive of a church being feed is feeding her spiritual food. Sometimes a word can make a big implications in understanding prophecies.

    And it does not say that there will be no legitimate congregation.
    You are relying solely on the passages of Revelation, and you do not know how the passages are related to other prophecies. I mentioned to you prophesies that will lead you to understand the about the legitimate congregation, but I understand why my mentioning of those prophecies are turning futile to you. You do not have a picture of the Jigsaw puzzle where I draw my conclusions on the pieces of the puzzle.


    The "blindness" that are referring to from Amos (actually it is more of a "drought" than blindness) refers to Israel's departure from God leading up until the time of Christ. It is not referring to the church age. That's why in the following chapter, Amos 9 (quoted in Acts 15), it talks about rebuilding David's tabernacle which refers to Christianity.
    Amos 8:12 clearly says “and shall not find it.” I can cite to you the prophecies regards the “falling away”, the “blindness of Israel,” and of the rise of the Gentiles, leading up for you to have a good grasp of things to happen, but these requires much explanations, and that it will be futile without you having a comprehensive view of the events to happen.

    There is a connection of the blindness to happen to the rebuilding of the tabernacle. But have you ever considered knowing the detail of how the tabernacle of David was destroyed? When it was destroyed? Why it was destroyed? What is the tabernacle of David refers to? I can sense that you actually have no knowledge of connecting the blindness of Israel to falling of the tabernacle of David.

    Your reliance of your limited knowledge to set your view of prophecies is sure will hinder you to understand what I would be explaining.

    If you have time, please do visit my website to know some of my views.
    Last edited by Parakletos; 10-23-2016 at 02:47 PM.

  4. #24
    tWebber
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    Found some info on Revelation 12:1-17:

    Vayeshev - the information in some reference books say that the passage in Genesis 37:1-44:9 ,9 Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” presents a problem , viz. what eleven stars is I.E. referring to? It appears that the aforementioned is a copyist's error. It was inserted either consciously or unconsciously from Gen. 37:9 which speaks of Joseph's dream, which consisted of the sun and moon and eleven stars -

    Song that is sung during passover:

    Initial words of a Hebrew nursery-rime which, with Had Gadya, is recited at the close of the Seder on
    Passover v,ve. It consists of thirteen numbers, and was probably recited originally as a dialogue, if not

    in chorr.c.

    Question : " One— who knows ? " Answer : " One— I know :
    One is our God In heaven and on earth."

    ....

    Question: " Eleven— who knows?" Answer: "Eleven— I
    know: the eleven stars " (in Joseph's dream: Gen. xxxvil. 9).
    Chorus: "Ten Commandments, Nine . . . ."


    Question : " Twelve — who knows ? " ATiswer : " Twelve— I
    know: the Twelve Tribes of Israel." Chorus: " Eleven stars.
    Ten . . . ."

    Question: " Thirteen— who knows?" Answer: "Thirteen
    —I know; the thirteen attributes of God" (Ex. xxxiv. 6-7).
    Chorus : "Twelve Tribes of Israel. Eleven . . . ."

    This song, stated by Zunz in "G. V." p. 133
    to occur only in (Jerman Pesah haggadahs since the
    fifteenth century, was later found by Zunz him-
    self in the Avignon ritual as a festal table-song
    for holy-days in general ("Allg. Zeitung des Ju-
    denthums," iii. 469).

    *****

    Commentary - 12 tribes of Israel. Was there a reason for listing 11 and not 12? Information is listed as the following: " Rabbi Nehemiah taught that Reuben reasoned that he was the firstborn and he alone would be held responsible for the crime. The Rabbis taught that Reuben reasoned that Joseph had included Reuben with his brethren in Joseph's dream of the sun and the moon and the eleven stars in Genesis 37:9, when Reuben thought that he had been expelled from the company of his brothers on account of the incident of Genesis 35:22. Because Joseph counted Reuben as a brother, Reuben felt motivated to rescue Joseph. And since Reuben was the first to engage in life saving, God decreed that the Cities of Refuge would be set up first within the borders of the Tribe of Reuben in Deuteronomy 4:43.[79]"

    Also, Psalms 8 is connected to this passage - What is man that you are mindful of him? - When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
    the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marta View Post
    Also, Psalms 8 is connected to this passage - What is man that you are mindful of him? - When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers,
    the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is mankind that you are mindful of them, human beings that you care for them?
    The spiritual meaning of the words "moon" and "stars" are related to the holy people of God. But one should not mix up the interpretation of referring to the moon and stars during Joseph's time to other period of time.

  6. #26
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    Referencing to the above post - Post # 7 didn't attach on.

    Apostoli:
    Well!!! There is a problem if the woman is symbolic of either of the nations Israel or Judah. OT symbolism has it that Israel was an adulterous and Judah was a harlot. The consequence: her offspring would be born as a result of harlotry and thus blemished = unacceptable as a champion of God.

    Imo, the best we can assume is that the woman is of the seed of Jacob.

    Consider Joseph's dream at Genesis 37:9. It is generally agreed that in the symbolism of the dream: Jacob=the sun, Rachel=the moon, and Jacob's twelve sons=the twelve stars. In Joseph's dream all of these did obeisance to him. In A.John's vision the woman is clothed with the sun (Jacob), which indicates that from her a nation and a king would arise (cp. Genesis 35:11), but more importantly all of God's promises to Abraham & Isaac would flow from her offspring (cp. Genesis 35:12). The moon (Rachel) is under her feet, which I take to mean the redundancy of Israel & Judah. Upon her head is a crown of twelve stars (Jacobs sons). Presumably, the twelve stars as her crown represent Jesus' twelve disciples, the spiritual sons of the woman (cp. John 19:26).
    The dream only include 11 stars and not 12, "Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. "Listen," he said, "I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me."
    Last edited by Marta; 10-28-2016 at 09:25 PM.

  7. Amen 37818 amen'd this post.

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