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Thread: Why distinguish the woman and her children

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    Quote Originally Posted by tabibito View Post
    Luke 21:7
    So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

    Luke 21:7 (Mark 13:4 likewise) doesn't state the question in full, which is why the detail is so difficult to ascertain. However, Matthew does record the full question:

    Matthew 24:3
    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


    The question addresses three issues, each of which is addressed by the answer - When will these things be? (seemingly, the issue immediately at hand - destruction of the temple) ... What will be the sign of your coming? ... What will be the sign of the end of the age?
    The advantage for us of course is hindsight. On review I should have started with Luke 21:5 "...as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down...". As can be observed even today, the Temple was obliterated. All that remains is part of an annex known as Herod's wall (the wailing wall). Two things of interest: 1. though Herod's wall was within the Temple compound, it wasn't part of the Temple itself. 2. Though Herod rebuilt the Temple as one of his architectural endevours, he himself was prohibited from entering the Temple area itself. He was restricted to the court of the Gentiles.

    Imo, the verse that directly answers the disciples question and pre-warns them of a coming tribulation is Luke 21:20 "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh." Jesus goes into some detail in the next few verses, and it is an historical fact that these came to pass not long after the death of Matthew, Mark & Luke...

    Anyway, these are a matters for another thread. I'm reluctant to high-jack Obsidian's focus...except where something is off-centre but relevant eg: me replying to a statement made by Obsidian, the starting point for my opinion, justifications for my opinion and/or historical background...


    I'll create another thread...
    Last edited by apostoli; 09-17-2015 at 09:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    Apparently, the woman refers to Israel, the "Jerusalem which is above."

    Revelation 12:1-17
    And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. . . . And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    2 John 1:1
    The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth[.]

    Galatians 4:26
    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

    Hebrews 12:22-24
    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


    Isaiah 54:1-3
    Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear;
    break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:
    for more are the children of the desolate
    than the children of the married wife, saith the Lord.
    Enlarge the place of thy tent,
    and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations:
    spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
    for thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left;
    and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles,
    and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.


    Yet Revelation 12 says that when the dragon tries to persecute the woman, she gets away. So the dragon instead goes to persecute her children (which seems to be described in Revelation 13 with the beasts and such).

    Revelation 12:13-17
    And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. . . . And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


    The question of the thread is this: If the woman represents believers and her children also represent believers, what is the point of distinguishing them, and in what way did the woman truly escape if her children still get persecuted?
    Maybe St John wanted to emphasise the contrast between "the great whore" and her "daughters" OTOH - and the "woman" & her "children", OTO. Some interpreters see the woman of 12 as an as yet unfallen version of Babylon the Great in 17; an intriguing suggestion, certainly. I think - so far - that the woman of 12 is the "Jerusalem that comes down from Heaven" near the end of the book. I assumed that the "children" of the "woman" were individual human beings, and that the "woman" & BTG were both personifications of societies. It would seem odd to have one woman being an individual person, or a society, and not the other as well.

    Since the sealed 144,000 Jews are individuals, and since the various crowds are made up of individuals, it would make sense if the "children" were also individuals. They may even belong to one of the crowds already mentioned, like the 144,000.

    The woman escapes because she is not overcome by the waters the Great Red Dragon vomits at her - her children can still be persecuted, so the GRD goes after them, as neither she nor the Man-Child is available to be persecuted. The GRD can't bother her or her Child, so he contents himself with persecuting them instead. St John is using Jeremian imagery of Nebuchadnezzar as a *tannin* - "monster, dragon" - swallowing up Judah. The "waters" recall Jonah, Psalm 129, & passages in Isaiah.

    St Jerome was correct - Rev contains "as many mysteries as words".

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Yeah. But it still doesn't really answer the question of what it means for the woman to escape into the wilderness, while the "children" still get persecuted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    [/B]

    The question of the thread is this: If the woman represents believers and her children also represent believers, what is the point of distinguishing them, and in what way did the woman truly escape if her children still get persecuted?
    This is a different view.

    As the Scripture uses the words "Church" "Woman," "Temple," and "Zion" as referring to all the elect, they are also used to refer of particular members of the elect.

    Zion

    Heb 12:22-23
    22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Ps 78:68
    But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved.


    Church

    1Pet 2:9

    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    1Cor 12:28-29
    28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

    Eph 4:11
    And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;


    Woman
    Woman likewise refers of the church, but among the members of the Church, there are those who nurtures, and members that are being nurtured. The woman would refer to those who nurtures, and the children referring to the ones being nurtured.


    Setting aside the detailed explanations for now, I am concluding that Zion, Church, and Woman may refer to the leaders of the Church(all the elect).


    "led to wilderness" and "nourished"
    Being "led to wilderness" and is being "nourished" points to the reason that there will be a famine of the word of God (Amos 8:11-14), and the fall of the church in the hand of the enemy(Dan 8:24). Being "led to wilderness" implies that the woman, referring of the leaders, are lost and have no definite established place of rule/authority because of the loss of the word. Without knowledge of the Truth, the word of God, one cannot establish himself as a priest unto God. Being "nourished" means that the Woman will undergo weaning because of the loss of the word.

    Consider also the scenario below:

    Isa 49:18-23
    18 Lift up thine eyes round about, and behold: all these gather themselves together, and come to thee. As I live, saith the LORD, thou shalt surely clothe thee with them all, as with an ornament, and bind them on thee, as a bride doeth. 19 For thy waste and thy desolate places, and the land of thy destruction, shall even now be too narrow by reason of the inhabitants, and they that swallowed thee up shall be far away. 20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. 21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been? 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. 23 And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, and their queens thy nursing mothers: they shall bow down to thee with their face toward the earth, and lick up the dust of thy feet; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: for they shall not be ashamed that wait for me.

    Verse 21 pretty much described what happened to the church. Rev 11:7, Rev 13:7, Dan 7:21, 25, and Dan 8:24 clearly show a time when the church was given unto the hands of the enemy, so the church can't really be functioning/ruling, and is therefore in the state of wandering to and fro, like lost in the wilderness.
    Last edited by Parakletos; 09-24-2016 at 05:43 PM.

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.

    Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

    Galatians 4:26
    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.
    I did not say such. My point is that the words CHURCH, ZION, TEMPLE, "may" refer to leaders instead of the whole elect.

    Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

    Galatians 4:26
    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    [/quote]
    Great subject, which is crucial in understanding the church.

    And I want you to examine yourself how the whole elect could be brought about by two distinct women, as the prophecy said:

    Gal 4:27
    For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

    Isa 54:1
    Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.


    If you may, I would like to give your attention about Sarah and Hagar, the concept of salvation, and the prophesies to understand these things.

    I am in an errand and will not be able to elaborate for now. But I hope you ask me about what I need to give special attention when I will explain these.

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    Hi Obsidian,

    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    So, the passage just teaches that sanctified Christians (or else "leaders") will somehow escape persecution? In a sense it is often true that God protects the Christians who are living rightly. But I don't think it's universally true enough that Revelation would come right out and promise it.
    As I said initially, CHURCH, TEMPLE, ZION "may" refer to other things, other than the whole elect. Not only the words I just previously mentioned can have two or more references; even the words CHRIST, KINGDOM OF GOD, BABYLON, SEED, JERUSALEM, etc. Note itself of you quoting Gal 4:26 mentioning JERUSALEM as referring to our mother, instead of our city!

    Is there a conflict? None at all. I have to remind you that the words of God are parables; they ought not be understood as plainly as how the letters say.

    Take for example the word SEED. Ishmael is also a SEED of Abraham, Isaac is a SEED, but there is a SEED that is specifically referring to Christ. A basic understanding of SEED is "possessing the same righteousness with Abraham." Such meaning is applied to Ismael, Isaac and Jesus, and to all elect. But there are promises being attributed to the SEED that only Christ will be the beneficiary. So there is a difference when we refer of the SEED as the whole elect, and of the SEED referring to Christ. Unless a person understands the distinctions, he will not be able to understand what is being truly said in a passage. The same when we refer of the words CHURCH, TEMPLE, ZION, JERUSALEM, etc.


    Also, your view doesn't hold up very well when we see that Paul, a major nurturer, called Jerusalem his own mother.

    Galatians 4:26
    But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
    You are misunderstanding me by applying my referral in general, instead of applying my referral in a limited way; as I said the word "may". That meant to say we ought not to use my reference of "leaders" in general, or on every time the word CHURCH, TEMPLE, or ZION is mentioned. Take for example the word SEED, it does not always refer to Christ. The word SEED "may" also refer of Ishmael, or Isaac, or even the whole elect.

    Now let us examine Gal 4:26 and add verse 27 also. If you can understand what is being truly said in these passages, you would be able to understand, and know the answer to the question of your OP.

    Gal 4:26-27
    26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.


    The words MOTHER and WOMAN may refer to a congregation. JERUSALEM as the mother of us all is referring to ALL the elect as a congregation, the CHURCH.

    But verse 27, the women is speaking of specific congregations rather that speaking of the whole elect. Verse 27 refers of the prophecy regarding the congregations of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

    But before we go to the prophecy, let us first understand who are the "barren" and "married" women. And bear in mind that the seed, meaning the elect, comes from both these women. Sarah, represents the married woman, and it represents Jerusalem, ultimately referring to the congregation of Jews. Hagar represents the desolate woman, being driven out to the wilderness. Hagar is also called "barren" not because of having no children, but of having no right to have the seed of Abraham. But how would we account Ishmael as a "seed" of Abraham? At the time of the Patriarch, the children of bondwomen from their masters, will be adopted as children of their female masters-- Take the example of the children of Jacob. The children from the bondwomen, that will become heirs, were adopted as children of their female masters, The children coming from the barren and desolate woman represents the elect from the gentiles.


    Now consider the prophecy below of ZION, the woman, losing her children and then finding them again.


    Isa 49:14-22
    14 But Zion said, The LORD hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. .......... 20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, shall say again in thine ears, The place is too strait for me: give place to me that I may dwell. 21 Then shalt thou say in thine heart, Who hath begotten me these, seeing I have lost my children, and am desolate, a captive, and removing to and fro? and who hath brought up these? Behold, I was left alone; these, where had they been? 22 Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders.



    It is clear in the prophecy that there will be a time when the woman have no children. But how then that the woman still remain and conversing with God? If the woman refers to the children of God, the woman would have had vanished also when the children of God had vanished. But we ought not to understand the prophecy that way. We have to understand these things as parables, or figurative. The woman, or the church, is simply personified and the passages speak of a time when the church lost her state of existince as a congregation. The woman that was referred as "married" had ceased as a congregation, and the congregation that will rise will come from the gentiles, which is then represented as the congregation from the "barren" or "desolate" woman. This scenario regards the church is corroborated by other prophecies.

    The same kind of treatment should be used in interpreting the woman in revelation. Take for example that Rev 12:14 would not literally refer of the woman, as the church that was truly given wings and flew in the wilderness. We may refer of the woman indeed as the Church, but we do not literally hold the understanding that the Church really were taken in the wilderness. The woman is simply personifying the church just like the prophecy of Isa 49:14-22.
    Last edited by Parakletos; 10-09-2016 at 09:19 PM.

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    I haven't fully analyzed your post, but I think you are completely wrong when you say that Sarah is the "married woman" and Hagar the "desolate woman." In context, being desolate refers to being barren. Hagar was not barren; Sarah was.

    I agree with this part:

    It is clear in the prophecy that there will be a time when the woman have no children. But how then that the woman still remain and conversing with God? If the woman refers to the children of God, the woman would have had vanished also when the children of God had vanished. But we ought not to understand the prophecy that way. We have to understand these things as parables, or figurative. The woman, or the church, is simply personified and the passages speak of a time when the church lost her state of existince as a congregation. The woman that was referred as "married" had ceased as a congregation, and the congregation that will rise will come from the gentiles, which is then represented as the congregation from the "barren" or "desolate" woman. This scenario regards the church is corroborated by other prophecies.
    And I also agree that the woman is not a literal woman, as you say:

    The same kind of treatment should be used in interpreting the woman in revelation. Take for example that Rev 12:14 would not literally refer of the woman, as the church that was truly given wings and flew in the wilderness. We may refer of the woman indeed as the Church, but we do not literally hold the understanding that the Church really were taken in the wilderness. The woman is simply personifying the church just like the prophecy of Isa 49:14-22.
    But as a practical matter, in saying this, I still don't feel like you really answer the question of what distinguishes the woman and her children. That is, we aren't much closer to saying what the prophecy actually means.

    When it says that the woman is given eagle's wings, as far as I can tell this just means that the woman is strengthened at a point where otherwise she would be weary and perish:

    Isaiah 40:29-31
    He giveth power to the faint;
    and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
    Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
    and the young men shall utterly fall:
    but they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
    they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
    they shall run, and not be weary;
    and they shall walk, and not faint.


    Personally, I am currently leaning toward this interpretation:

    1. Israel gives birth to the Messiah (Child born of the woman with twelve crowns)
    2. The Messiah's followers topple the spiritual powers that are upholding the Roman Empire, and indeed all pagan empires. (Michael casting Satan to earth)
    3. With the loss of spiritual power, the Romans (via Satan) get desperate and try to stamp out the church with threats of death. (Dragon trying to eat the woman)
    4. God gives strength to the church, so that this persecution fails. (Eagles wings)
    5. Satan tries to corrupt the church with false doctrine. (Flood of water out of the dragon's mouth)
    6. Only nominal Christians fall for the lies. ("Earth" swallowing the water)
    7. Satan changes his strategy from persecuting the church as an entity, to trying to torment and corrupt individual believers. (War against the children)
    8. Another empire rises up which is not overtly Satanic/pagan, but which nonetheless carries out this strategy because the devil is covertly behind it. (Beast from the sea, empowered by the dragon)
    9. Another entity (or possibly another empire) gives a pretend Christian mask to this empire, which speaks doctrines of devils. (Beast from the earth)

    The sea is noted to refer to the gentiles in Isaiah 23:11, 42:10, and 60:5.

    Isaiah 60:5
    Then thou shalt see, and flow together,
    and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged;
    because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee,
    the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.


    Although the reference is more tenuous, the subject of 'earth' in Isaiah 51 seems to refer to God, or else to people who follow after God.

    Isaiah 51:1-2
    Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness,
    ye that seek the Lord:
    look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
    and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
    Look unto Abraham your father,
    and unto Sarah that bare you:
    for I called him alone,
    and blessed him, and increased him.


    So the difference between the woman and the children would be that the children are individuals who are persecuted by Satan, in contrast to the church as an entity (the woman) being persecuted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian View Post
    I haven't fully analyzed your post, but I think you are completely wrong when you say that Sarah is the "married woman" and Hagar the "desolate woman." In context, being desolate refers to being barren. Hagar was not barren; Sarah was.
    The words "married", "desolate", and "barren" are spiritual, not physical, references for the church. Even Sara and Hagar is no more referred to the physical women: Sara and Hagar, but of the churches, or congregations.

    The words are parables, we should not understand them literally.

    I agree with this part:

    And I also agree that the woman is not a literal woman, as you say:

    But as a practical matter, in saying this, I still don't feel like you really answer the question of what distinguishes the woman and her children. That is, we aren't much closer to saying what the prophecy actually means.
    The distinctions will come through understanding the parables, not by literally distinguishing the words used. For example, the woman and her children is practically the same. But there is a specific message why the woman is made distinct to his children. There is a point in a prophecy where the children were gone, and thus the kingdom of God did not exist(Isaiah 49:20). But there is also a prophesy that the kingdom of God will continue forever (Dan 2:44, Isa 9:7). So here you have to give the proper understanding who the woman is referred, and who the children are. The "woman" referred in Revelation is speaking in terms of the kingdom that will continue forever, and the children refer to the "leaders." The cessation of the kingdom of God does not necessarily end by the physical death of its rulers, nor the dissolve of the congregation. The kingdom of God, as taught in the parables, exist in different ways. Even as Christ said, "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

    Another one example, not because the man child was born by the woman, does not mean that the child is not Christ. You might argue and say, "Jesus is
    the bridegroom of the woman, therefore he is not the child born by the woman." No, the man child born by the woman was the same who is also presented as the bridegroom of the woman.

    When it says that the woman is given eagle's wings, as far as I can tell this just means that the woman is strengthened at a point where otherwise she would be weary and perish:

    Isaiah 40:29-31
    He giveth power to the faint;
    and to them that have no might he increaseth strength.
    Even the youths shall faint and be weary,
    and the young men shall utterly fall:
    but they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
    they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
    they shall run, and not be weary;
    and they shall walk, and not faint.
    Again you must understand the parables and not rely on the specific words used. The woman that was spoken is not specifically speaking of a congregation, but in terms of the kingdom of God, that exist differently than as a congregation. Now, as we learn in the prophesy, the woman had lost her children, referring of the Jewish Christian leaders. When the Jewish Christian leaders were overcomed by the Devil, the woman was therefore like lost, or seems none existent, as described by being in the wilderness.


    Personally, I am currently leaning toward this interpretation:

    1. Israel gives birth to the Messiah (Child born of the woman with twelve crowns)
    I agree.

    2. The Messiah's followers topple the spiritual powers that are upholding the Roman Empire, and indeed all pagan empires. (Michael casting Satan to earth)
    3. With the loss of spiritual power, the Romans (via Satan) get desperate and try to stamp out the church with threats of death. (Dragon trying to eat the woman)
    These things are observed in spiritual way, not in physical ways. We may differ greatly on understanding how these things happens.

    4. God gives strength to the church, so that this persecution fails. (Eagles wings)
    The church(Jewish congregation) was overcomed by the beast, this was the time the church was given eagle's wing and fled to wilderness.

    5. Satan tries to corrupt the church with false doctrine. (Flood of water out of the dragon's mouth)
    6. Only nominal Christians fall for the lies. ("Earth" swallowing the water)
    7. Satan changes his strategy from persecuting the church as an entity, to trying to torment and corrupt individual believers. (War against the children)
    8. Another empire rises up which is not overtly Satanic/pagan, but which nonetheless carries out this strategy because the devil is covertly behind it. (Beast from the sea, empowered by the dragon)
    9. Another entity (or possibly another empire) gives a pretend Christian mask to this empire, which speaks doctrines of devils. (Beast from the earth)
    These above events happened to the Jewish congregation, until the Jewish congregation were overcome by the beast.

    The sea is noted to refer to the gentiles in Isaiah 23:11, 42:10, and 60:5.

    Isaiah 60:5
    Then thou shalt see, and flow together,
    and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged;
    because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee,
    the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.


    Although the reference is more tenuous, the subject of 'earth' in Isaiah 51 seems to refer to God, or else to people who follow after God.

    Isaiah 51:1-2
    Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness,
    ye that seek the Lord:
    look unto the rock whence ye are hewn,
    and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
    Look unto Abraham your father,
    and unto Sarah that bare you:
    for I called him alone,
    and blessed him, and increased him.
    You are missing a big part of prohesies, especially of the rise of the Gentiles. As said to Jesus: "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

    You are missing the blindness of Israel, the prophecy about the people from the isles, etc.

    So the difference between the woman and the children would be that the children are individuals who are persecuted by Satan, in contrast to the church as an entity (the woman) being persecuted.
    Quite close enough.

    However, I seem to infer that you are not wary that the children persecuted were persecuted were all killed, or overcomed by the the beast. And this is what the prophesies say:


    20 The children which thou shalt have, after thou hast lost the other, ........Thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I will lift up mine hand to the Gentiles, and set up my standard to the people: and they shall bring thy sons in their arms, and thy daughters shall be carried upon their shoulders. Isa 49:20-22
    Last edited by Parakletos; 10-16-2016 at 10:22 PM.

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    tWebber Obsidian's Avatar
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    Isaiah doesn't say that any children are going to be killed. It's just saying that the woman is childless because by the time of Jesus, very few real believers were left in Israel. There weren't any 'children' around to follow the religion. Ultimately some more children came about through revival, and many of them were gentiles.

    Regarding the beast: There is nothing in Revelation 12 about any "beast" killing Jews, or even about any beast at all. Further, in neither 12 nor 13 is there anything about anyone being given eagle's wings to hide from a beast. Rather, the beast only occurs after the eagle's wings, and after the woman is safe, and basically after all of the dragon's efforts have failed. The beast only goes after the children. And I highly doubt that the "children" refer specifically to the Jews. If anything, I think the "children" probably refers to people of all nations and tongues, as described in Revelation 7:9 and also the passage in Isaiah that you cited.

    The woman that was spoken is not specifically speaking of a congregation, but in terms of the kingdom of God, that exist differently than as a congregation.
    I never said that the woman was "a" congregation, as in a single congregation. I agree that it is the kingdom of the righteous. But I don't know what you are trying to say, when you distinguish the "kingdom of God" from the word I used -- "church." I meant that the woman represents all the churches as organizations, as opposed to all individual Christians.

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