Adam created Immortal

[jimmybob479]

I've always had some problem in my mind understanding how we, as humans, could have been initially created immortal. Eventually a tree would fall on us or the earth overflow or something. Some time ago I heard more scientifically/Biblically developed standpoints on this, (one from Richard Deem from godandscience.org). On my basic Christian upbringing I've always heard that Adam was created immortal, like I said up to point of reading another's argument I thought it was a general consensus. Am I wrong about this? Do many Christians believe Adam was created mortal, with "death" referring to spiritual death and not physical?

Reference: http://www.godandscience.org/youngea..._immortal.html

[NJon]

I suppose that would depend on if said Christian is a theistic evolutionist or a YEC. Or perhaps something else.

Personally, I am a YEC. I do believe that Adam was created to live forever. God foreknew that Adam & Eve would sin and that He would curse the world (and the whole universe, I should say) with death because of it, but God did not want there to be sin.

However, God has also offered the way to redemption so that death is no longer a curse, but a blessing with which we are freed from this sin-cursed universe and brought into the Savior's presence.
For those who remain in their sins and are not justified by the Savior, the wrath of God abides upon them and death remains a curse, a method with which physical death becomes their eternal death.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23

[Mr. Christopher]

I've always had some problem in my mind understanding how we, as humans, could have been initially created immortal. Eventually a tree would fall on us or the earth overflow or something. Some time ago I heard more scientifically/Biblically developed standpoints on this, (one from Richard Deem from godandscience.org). On my basic Christian upbringing I've always heard that Adam was created immortal, like I said up to point of reading another's argument I thought it was a general consensus. Am I wrong about this? Do many Christians believe Adam was created mortal, with "death" referring to spiritual death and not physical?

Reference: http://www.godandscience.org/youngea..._immortal.html

Just an example on how one person can mess it up for everyone.

[sirhemlock]

I've always had some problem in my mind understanding how we, as humans, could have been initially created immortal. Eventually a tree would fall on us or the earth overflow or something. Some time ago I heard more scientifically/Biblically developed standpoints on this, (one from Richard Deem from godandscience.org). On my basic Christian upbringing I've always heard that Adam was created immortal, like I said up to point of reading another's argument I thought it was a general consensus. Am I wrong about this? Do many Christians believe Adam was created mortal, with "death" referring to spiritual death and not physical?

Reference: http://www.godandscience.org/youngea..._immortal.html

Genesis portrays man’s “immortality” as having been derivative (“eternal life” was conditional rather than, in philosophical parlance, necessary): it involved partaking of the fruit of a tree on a continual basis, and abiding in the Lordship of God. Dietrich Bonhoeffer has shown quite effectively that many of the common theological ideas about “perfection” before the fall originated completely apart from, and in spite of, a sober reading of the text of Genesis.

[4Pillars]

God knew Adam and Eve would sin before the foundation of the world. That's why Jesus was slain before the world was made - in his mind. God sees the end from the beginning. God knows how to make a Perfect Heaven and fill it with Perfect People. This will happen after the rapture - when Jesus is finish preparing the place for us, as promised.

The speculation that Adam was suppose to be “immortal” -- when in fact the Scripture document us that he was made a Natural Living Soul (flesh & blood) in the beginning (Gen. 2:7) -- before he was created in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 5:1-3)-- is only based on the traditional religious view which I believe to be flawed, in my opinion.

When Jesus told Adam that he would surely die, In The Day, that he disobeyed, Adam had not yet been Created Spiritually, for Eve had not yet been formed. Adam did Not die either physically nor Spiritually within 24 Hours, but Adam did Die on this present 6th Creative Day (this morning - God's Time), just as Jesus told him he would.

As it is written, “... God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.” There is a natural body (earthly), and there is a spiritual body (heavenly) -- flesh and blood (earthly body) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

God Bless

[ruthrush]

4Pillars God knew Adam and Eve would sin before the foundation of the world. That's why Jesus was slain before the world was made - in his mind. God sees the end from the beginning. God knows how to make a Perfect Heaven and fill it with Perfect People. This will happen after the rapture - when Jesus is finish preparing the place for us, as promised.

God made a perfect earthly residence for man in Paradise. Paradise is still there but entrance was blocked except to believers in the Promised Seed of Gen.3, Yeshua.
Revelation says God will ultimately create a new heaven and a new earth. If are last destination is Heaven, why would He also make a new earth.
By God's perfect plan, man was made to live on His created perfect earth.
Ruth

The speculation that Adam was suppose to be “immortal” -- when in fact the Scripture document us that he was made a Natural Living Soul (flesh & blood) in the beginning (Gen. 2:7) -- before he was created in the image and likeness of God (Gen. 5:1-3)-- is only based on the traditional religious view which I believe to be flawed, in my opinion.

When Jesus told Adam that he would surely die, In The Day, that he disobeyed, Adam had not yet been Created Spiritually, for Eve had not yet been formed. Adam did Not die either physically nor Spiritually within 24 Hours, but Adam did Die on this present 6th Creative Day (this morning - God's Time), just as Jesus told him he would.

God never lies. What He says will happen. Except, when He predicts punishment (Ninevah), His mercy can cancel out or modify His promised justice.
That is what happened with Adam and Eve. They were allowed to continue living as long as they could without access to the tree of everlasting life. Then their death sentence occurred.
Man was not made an eternal being or what need for a Tree of Everlasting Life? It is also spoken of in Ezekial 48 and Rev.22.
Ruth

As it is written, “... God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.” There is a natural body (earthly), and there is a spiritual body (heavenly) -- flesh and blood (earthly body) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

God Bless

Then what need for a new earth?
I believe, that our Spiritual body is a sinless body, one not effected by our past sinful deeds. It will be as the newly created bodies of Adam and Eve. Uncorrupted, not having tasted of the tree of good and evil.
Ruth

[4Pillars]

God made a perfect earthly residence for man in Paradise. Paradise is still there but entrance was blocked except to believers in the Promised Seed of Gen.3, Yeshua.
Revelation says God will ultimately create a new heaven and a new earth. If are last destination is Heaven, why would He also make a new earth.
By God's perfect plan, man was made to live on His created perfect earth.
Ruth

God creates in his own terms, not ours. The 1st Earth was destroyed totally and completely when the 1st Universe was dissolved in the Flood. Remember, that the 1st Universe was in the midst of the water. When the floodgates were opened, the entire World of Adam was dissolved, exactly as God told us.

The heavens and the earth, which are Now, will be burned. The first Earth, the Earth of Adam and Noah is gone forever. The sin and violence of men, brought about it's destruction. ll Peter 3:5-7

The 3rd Heaven is where Jesus has gone to prepare a place for us. It's where all Christians will live forever. ll Corinthians 12:2 tells us of the 3rd Heaven.

God never lies. What He says will happen. Except, when He predicts punishment (Ninevah), His mercy can cancel out or modify His promised justice.
That is what happened with Adam and Eve. They were allowed to continue living as long as they could without access to the tree of everlasting life. Then their death sentence occurred.
Man was not made an eternal being or what need for a Tree of Everlasting Life? It is also spoken of in Ezekial 48 and Rev.22.
Ruth

Correct. God never lies. The fault is Not with God's Truth, but with man's ability to understand it, for His thoughts are far above man's thoughts.

Adam was formed physically on the 3rd Day, and named the beasts of the Field and Birds, formed from the ground at the beginning of the 6th Day, but he was not Created in God's Image until after Cain killed Abel.

How could Adam Die Spiritually, before he was Created Spiritually? Gen. 1:27 and Gen. 5:1-2 show us that Adam and Eve were Created at the same time.

The Un-Scriptural idea, that the 6 Creative Days and the 1 Day of Rest, are 24 hour periods of Time, is refuted by Scripture. The 7th Day has no End.

Then what need for a new earth?
I believe, that our Spiritual body is a sinless body, one not effected by our past sinful deeds. It will be as the newly created bodies of Adam and Eve. Uncorrupted, not having tasted of the tree of good and evil. Ruth

God spoke physical matter into being apart from Himself...temporarily. Anything made from these elements, being apart from God, is subject to darkness or death. God is the cause of this darkness, but in God is No darkness at all.

The Creation is subjected to darkness for just 6 Day or Ages. In Eternity, there will be NO darkness...which means there will be NO followers of the darkness, but Only Christians.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him Who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

There will be NO death nor destruction in the 3rd Heaven, when God's Creation is brought to Perfection.

God Bless

[Theologic]

I've always had some problem in my mind understanding how we, as humans, could have been initially created immortal. Eventually a tree would fall on us or the earth overflow or something. Some time ago I heard more scientifically/Biblically developed standpoints on this, (one from Richard Deem from godandscience.org). On my basic Christian upbringing I've always heard that Adam was created immortal, like I said up to point of reading another's argument I thought it was a general consensus. Am I wrong about this? Do many Christians believe Adam was created mortal, with "death" referring to spiritual death and not physical?

Reference: http://www.godandscience.org/youngea..._immortal.html

Hi JB:

I think the struggle is that we really don't know how God created man in the beginning, and what the world would have been. And while I don't think that we can truly get a clear picture on this through exegesis, I'd like to throw in two cents.

I think that one of the best explorations of this "what if" type questions were attacked by CS Lewis in his space trilogy. If I allow myself to be influenced by some of his concepts, let me throw out some ideas.

I think in Genesis 3, it is indicated that to live forever required the fruit of the tree of life. So clearly, even in a sinless world, you needed to take steps to avoid a physical death.

Genesis 3

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

For a moment, let's hypothesize that the the universe was created as if man would not have sinned. Therefore, our sin simply screwed up a good thing and God didn't "plan in advance" for our sin (even though he foreknows everything.)

I think we could simply say that the apparent first design of man in the garden was one of extending a very long life span (900-1000) years to even a longer extent by taking of the tree of life. The tree of life must have been originally constructed to be a bit like the fountain of youth. You can eat of the fruit and continue to live.

But then the question is "why would God want us to live a long time?" God is a God with purpose. So, we must have been created to find out a couple of things. The only job that we see early in Genesis is the naming of the animals. Some how I doubt if this was the last of the jobs.

So what could have some of "sinless" purposes have been?

I think that it was apparent that we were to have a battle with Satan. For some reason, God allows his creatures to fight evil on a very personal level. CS Lewis grappled with the idea of a "sinless" man in his book Perelandra. Angels of light clearly fight angels of dark, even though God can wipe out all resistance with a word. Perhaps, we would have been called on to fight the demonic horde! Too bad that our first meeting with the enemy was such a failure.

Would it have been a short battle or a long one? If Adam had not sinned, would there have been a chance for other human beings to sin after Adam? Perhaps, 1/3 of the humans would have followed him like 1/3 of the angel followed Lucifer. Again, in Perelandra, Lewis suggests that Satan would have not been quiet but would constantly strive to tempt the creation to stray from the creator.

Then, ignoring the obvious war going on, there is the question about man exploring the universe....

When we look at the universe, we see it is very, very large. I don't think that God originally made all of these stars just to throw a bit of light on the earth. I think he made it for us to explore. So I would venture that God had created the universe as a puzzle. Man, if he had not sinned, would have been able to explore the universe. Perhaps to colonize the whole of the universe. It make me wonder if and how we would have found transportation between the stars. Perhaps, it would have been by space ships with drives could go near the speed of light, thus slow down time. Perhaps, we would have found a transportation device a little like the "Stargate" that we see on television. Perhaps, the angel would have carried us.

And perhaps there would have been new life to find. I don't think that the Bible closes the door on this, until we have the fall of man.

Now what about things like trees falling on us? I don't think that our body would eve be free from the physical effects of hurt. Perhaps, it would be a bit like the future that CS Lewis made in his fiction.

He suggested that sinless beings would simply be unmade (physical released to the spiritual) after death. Would God have recreated us in this world? Or would resurrection have been a common occurrence? We don't know. However, the fact that life could be taken away would certainly add interest into living. I am assuming that even if the body was killed, we would then be present with the Lord.

Finally, while the soul seems to be eternal, I would guess that even those that ate from the tree of life would eventual need a new universe. After all, it looks that this universe will eventually spin down. So, perhaps we would eventually get new bodies and a new universe.

Which then leads to what the new life will be like. I would suggest even in the new heaven, we can be hurt. Afterall, Revelation says

Revelation 22

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So, even with our new bodies, we have the chance to hurt ourselves, although it would appear that we won't procreate. However, we can fix ourselves up with some fruit. A little bit like potion that you might see out of a book by Tolkien.

It boggles the mind.

[4Pillars]

Dear Readers,

Based on the Scripture, here is where the Creation is perfected - contrary to other's speculation:

"in the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth" (Gen 1:1)
"I saw a new heaven and a new earth" (Rev 21:1)
____________________________________________
"The gathering together of waters He called the Sea" (Gen1:10)
"And the Sea is no more" (Rev 21:1)
____________________________________________

"The darkness He called Night" (Gen 1:5)
"there shall be no night there" (Rev 21:25)
____________________________________________

God made the two great lights (sun and moon)" (Gen1:16)
"the city has no need of the Sun nor the Moon" (Rev 21:23)
____________________________________________

"in the day you eat thereof you shall surely die" (Gen 2:17)
"death shall be no more" (Rev 21:14)
____________________________________________

"I will greatly multiply your pain" (Gen 3:16)
"Neither shall there be pain anymore" (Rev 21:4)
____________________________________________

"cursed is the ground for your sake" (Gen 3:17)
"There shall be no more curse" (Rev 22:3)
____________________________________________

Satan appears as the deceiver of mankind (Gen 3:1-4)
Satan disappears forever (Rev 20:10)
____________________________________________

They were driven from the Tree of Life (gen 3:22-24)
The Tree of Life re-appears (Rev 22:2)
____________________________________________

They were driven from GOd's presence (Gen 3:24)
"they shall see His face" (Rev 22:4)
____________________________________________

Man's primeval home was by a river (Gen 2:10)
Man's Eternal home will be beside a river (Rev 22:1)
____________________________________________

Please remember that God doesn't stop creating things very good, He CREATES them PERFECT. His real Creation, which is perfect, is Heaven, and when it comes He will rest from all of His CREATION.


God Bless