Some notes on "the time of the end"

[Geert van den Bos]

By the way, the sign of Jonah is more like the olive leave the dove sent forth by Noach carried in its mouth.

The olive being the fruit that being pressed provides the oil, both essence of the light and main ingredient of the oil of holy anoinment.

Greek θλῖψις, translated with tribulation, does denote also the pressing of the olive.

Rootverb θλίβω = make narrow, persecute, press hard, crush.

The olive being the sixth fruit of the land mentioned in Deuteronomy 8:8.

Olive pressed on the sixth day provides its light after "three days and three nights", on the third day (= eighth day)

The Olivet discourse is situated on the mount of Olives, where also was the garden Getsemane = "gat sh'manim" = oil press.

[robrecht]

?????

[Geert van den Bos]

?????

B .Hemelsoet:

"The reader shouldn't mistake":

[robrecht]

B .Hemelsoet:

"The reader shouldn't mistake":

Thanks for the memories. Don't get a chance to read much Dutch these days. I was more confused by the talk about the sign of Jonah, the olive branch of Noah's dove, olive oil being used in lamps and in anointing, the etymology of tribulation being related to an olive press, the sixth fruit, the eighth day, and the etymology of Gethsemane. Hemelsoet does not speak about any of these things in the page you posted. I figured these were you own reflections.

[Geert van den Bos]

Thanks for the memories. Don't get a chance to read much Dutch these days. I was more confused by the talk about the sign of Jonah, the olive branch of Noah's dove, olive oil being used in lamps and in anointing, the etymology of tribulation being related to an olive press, the sixth fruit, the eighth day, and the etymology of Gethsemane. Hemelsoet does not speak about any of these things in the page you posted. I figured these were you own reflections.

"The great tribulation" is part of his suffering and not consequence of his suffering.

If you maintain the latter Jesus is made loose from the fate of the world. It is a misconception that has led to unspeakable mysery.

That's what Hemelsoet says.

The name Jonah means dove, if you dind't know that yet.

The flood would have meant the end if Noach wouldn't have built the ark from which he sent forth Jonah who at last returned with an olive leaf in its mouth.

The olive pressed on the sixth day provides the oil "shemen" of the eighth day, a new day one.

"eight" is Hebrew "shemonah" - female form of "shemen" -- the essence of the light that God saw to be good.

[robrecht]

"The great tribulation" is part of his suffering and not consequence of his suffering.

If you maintain the latter Jesus is made loose from the fate of the world. It is a misconception that has led to unspeakable mysery.

That's what Hemelsoet says.

The name Jonah means dove, if you dind't know that yet.

The flood would have meant the end if Noach wouldn't have built the ark from which he sent forth Jonah who at last returned with an olive leaf in its mouth.

The olive pressed on the sixth day provides the oil "shemen" of the eighth day, a new day one.

"eight" is Hebrew "shemonah" - female form of "shemen" -- the essence of the light that God saw to be good.

I understood the page from Hemelsoet, and also caught all the associations you are making here, but it doesn't seem to me that they are very helpful in understanding Mark's intended meaning.

[Geert van den Bos]

I understood the page from Hemelsoet, and also caught all the associations you are making here, but it doesn't seem to me that they are very helpful in understanding Mark's intended meaning.

intendend meaning = the purpose of the book.

τέλος can mean both end and purpose.

Mark 13:13,
But the one who endures to the end will be saved


makes think of Daniel 12:13,
And you, go to the end, and you will rest and rise to your lot at the end of the days

Mark is about resurrection --

Mark 16:6,
Jesus you are looking for, the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has been raised, he is not here.


like also Daniel,

Daniel 12:3,
And the wise will shine like the brightness of the firmament

brightness = "zohar"

Book the Zohar seems to be called so after Spanish "que haya luz" = let there be light.

http://www.templodesalomon.com/index...188&Itemid=382

Su título Zóhar (luz, resplandor) es obtenido de las palabras del Génesis 1:3 ("Que haya luz") con la exposición de las cuales comienza.

which again seems to be a wordplay.

"luz" can mean also nut, almond or hazel.

And also the name of a little bone that cannot decay, not rot away in water nor burnt in fire, from which man will be resurrected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luz_%28bone%29

Another name for almond is "shaked" related to the verb "shakad" = to wake, watch.

Luz-bone = the wake-bone.

" wake" Greek γρηγορεύω

Mark's Olivet discourse ending with it:

ὃ δὲ ὑμῖν λέγω, πᾶσιν λέγω, γρηγορεῖτε.

What I say to you I say to all: Wake!

This call for being watchfull repeats in the passage about the prayer in Getsemane, Mark 14:34,
And he said to them, “My soul is very sorrowful, even to death. Remain here and watch

Mark 13:13 also makes think of of John 21:22,
If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?

From which might be clear that not is meant that in the year 70 there would be just one disciple still alive.

(I do think that the disciple whom Jesus loved is meant to be Lazarus, who was called from the grave).

[robrecht]

I see what I mean.

[Geert van den Bos]

I see what I mean.

The great misconception is that the kingdom of God (or the kingdom of heaven) should have a startingpoint in time.

God is eternal and so his kingship.

Like also the Messiah = the resurrected one.

“HASHEM Melech, HASHEM Malach, HASHEM Yimloch, l’olam va’ed”. HASHEM is King, HASHEM, was King, and HASHEM will be King forever and ever!

Psalms 10:16 The Lord is King forever and ever

Mark 1:15, "The time has been fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn near" --

in German they say : "zum Greifen nah"

"Greifen" - to catch.

John 1:
12 But to all who did catch it (the light), who believed in its name, it gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

It has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple or the retracting of the "old" testament.

[John Reece]

The great misconception is that the kingdom of God (or the kingdom of heaven) should have a startingpoint in time.

God is eternal and so his kingship.

Like also the Messiah = the resurrected one.

“HASHEM Melech, HASHEM Malach, HASHEM Yimloch, l’olam va’ed”. HASHEM is King, HASHEM, was King, and HASHEM will be King forever and ever!

Psalms 10:16 The Lord is King forever and ever

Mark 1:15, "The time has been fulfilled and the kingdom of God has drawn near" --

in German they say : "zum Greifen nah"

"Greifen" - to catch.

John 1:
12 But to all who did catch it (the light), who believed in its name, it gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

It has nothing to do with the destruction of the temple or the retracting of the "old" testament.

You confuse things by means of overly simplistic truisms and loose associations.

Of course "the Lord is King forever and ever"; however, that fact does not negate the fact that God has intervened in human history at specific unique times in human history with regard to His Kingdom.

For instance:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

And Matthew 21:14-43:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and [will be] given to a people producing its fruits.

[Geert van den Bos]

You confuse things by means of overly simplistic truisms and loose associations.

Of course "the Lord is King forever and ever"; however, that fact does not negate the fact that God has intervened in human history at specific unique times in human history with regard to His Kingdom.

For instance:

Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.

And Matthew 21:14-43:

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and [will be] given to a people producing its fruits.

Rashi:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

from now and to eternity: The eternity of Hezekiah, viz. all his days. And so we find that Hannah said concerning Samuel (I Sam. 1:22): “and abide there forever.” And, in order to refute those who disagree [i.e., the Christians, who claim that this (Prince of Peace) is their deity], we can refute them [by asking], What is the meaning of: “from now” ? Is it not so that the “deity” did not come until after five hundred years and more?

Matthew 5:3,


Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Not from the year 30 or 70 AD on.

Matthew 21:45,
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

Chief priests and Pharisees are many (legio) also nowadays ...

[John Reece]

Rashi:
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true

Matthew 5:3, Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Not from the year 30 or 70 AD on.

Matthew 21:45,
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them.

Chief priests and Pharisees are many (legio) also nowadays ...

I'll accept the validity of the Rashi quote re Isaiah with regard to this thread.

However, Matthew 23:14-39 does indeed relate to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple therein in AD 70, and the enthronement of Jesus occurred circa AD 30, according to Matthew 26:64.

From The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT: Eerdmans, 2007), by R. T. France:

[Matthew 23:38] Jerusalem’s failure to respond is to have drastic consequences. “Your house,” especially when spoken in the temple courtyard, naturally refers to the temple building which would be visible from there, and the more explicit prediction of 24:2 confirms this reference. In that case there is a sad irony in that what was described in 21:13 as God’s house is now “your house,” and it has been left “to you,” because God has abandoned it, as Jesus himself is about to do in 24:1; see comments there on the echo of Ezekiel’s vision of God leaving the temple. There is a special poignancy in the juxtaposition of “house” (a place meant to be lived in) and erēmos, “uninhabited,” which describes not so much its physical dissolution as its being deserted; its consequent destruction will merely complete the process. The desolation of God’s house was predicted in similar terms by Jeremiah (Jer 12:7; cf. 26:6), and erēmos here perhaps echoes the LXX erēmōsis in Jer 22:59 (cf. 24:15 with its echo of similar erēmōsis language from Daniel). See the comments on 16:14 for Jesus’ echoing of Jeremiah’s prophecies of disaster on Jerusalem. For the theological background to this theme see 1Kgs 9:6–9: when God’s people forsake God’s way, the “house” will be “cast out of my sight” and ruined.

From The Gospel of Matthew (TNTC: Eerdmans, 1985), by R. T. France:

[Matthew 26:64]. However sarcastically intended, the High Priest's words corresponded to Jesus' claims. There is no doubt, then, that You have said so is to be understood, as in verse 25 (cf. also 27:11), as alternative, though 'reluctant or or circumlocutory in formation'. The element of reluctance, while perhaps partly attributable to Jesus' disapproval of the oath-formula (see on verse 63), is because what the High Priest understands by the words he has used (and particularly the political implications he can and will draw from them) is far from Jesus' conception of his Messianic role. So, while not refusing the titles offered, Jesus goes on to qualify their meaning: But I tell you... And this qualification lifts the whole idea of Messiahship out of the sphere of Jewish earthly politics into that of heavenly authority, while the title 'Christ' is quietly discarded in favor of Son of man (...), Seated at the right hand echoes Psalm 110:1, already discussed in 22:41-46, but now explicitly applied to Jesus. Power is a typically Jewish reverential expression to avoid pronouncing the sacred name of God (which might have laid Jesus open to the charge of blasphemy, though ironically it was precisely that charge of blasphemy on which he was condemned condemned, verse 65! Coming on the clouds of heaven (Daniel 7:13, already similarly alluded to in 24:30. See above on 10:23; 16:27-28; 24:30 for the meaning of such language. We have seen that its natural application in terms of its Old Testament source is to the vindication and enthronement of the Son of Man in heaven, not to a descent to earth. It is therefore in this verse a parallel expression to 'seated at the right hand of Power'; the two phrases refer to the same exalted state, not to two successive situations or events. In this verse the appropriateness of this interpretation is underlined by the fact that this is to be true 'from now on[/i] (hereafter is a quite misleading rendering of the more specific phrase ap' arti, which in 23:39 and 26:29, denotes a new period beginning from now). Indeed it is something which Jesus' inquisitors themselves will see (an echo of Zc. 12:10, as in the next few weeks (not to mention the subsequent growth of the church) that the 'blasphemer' they thought they had disposed of is in fact not in the position of supreme authority.

[Geert van den Bos]

[size=4][font=times new roman]I'll accept the validity of the Rashi quote re Isaiah with regard to this thread.

However, Matthew 23:14-39 does indeed relate to the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple therein in AD 70, and the enthronement of Jesus occurred circa AD 30, according to Matthew 26:64.

"The house of God" is the place where he does abide.

His presence can not be confined to a house of wood and stone. (If you do so you make out of him an idol).

(In fact he is only present in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1 - his house being the completion of creation).

Matthew 26:64 speaks about "seeing" , from now on you will see the Son of Man, etc.

Same "seeing" in Matthew 24:30, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


of which might have been clear that it is not about seeing with the physical eyes, since (v.29) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven

(Same "seeing" I think in Matthew 28:7, Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you.”
- which is also a play with "here" and "there": He is not here // there you will see him - which refers to the story of the binding of Isaac - Genesis 22, v. 5 And Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the donkey, and I and the lad will go there, and we will prostrate ourselves and return to you." - there = Hebrew "koh" - same as in Genesis 15:5, And He said to him, "So will be your seed."
, "koh yiyeh zarecha" -- Matthew did begin with the enumerating of this "koh", the 3 x14 generations from Abraham to Jesus. Mount Moriah, on which the slaughtering occurred, is the Templemount.)


"The sitting at the right hand" is after Psalms 110, which again is after Genesis 14, the war of the four kings against the five where Abraham gained victory in favor of the five with assistance of his 318 trained servants --(Genesis 14:14 - Rashi:

his trained men: Heb. חֲנִיכָיו. It is written חֲנִיכוֹ [in the singular], his trained man (other editions: It is read). This is Eliezer, whom he had trained to [perform the] commandments, and it [חֲנִיכָיו] is an expression of the initiation (lit. the beginning of the entrance) of a person or a utensil to the craft with which he [or it] is destined to remain


three hundred and eighteen: Our Sages said (Gen. Rabbah 43:2, Ned. 32a): It was Eliezer alone, and it [the number 318] is the numerical value of his name.

Eliezer = Lazarus in NT.

so "the sitting at the right hand" has to do with certain Bible-interpretation.

John 21:6,
“Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find” So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish

v.7, That disciple whom Jesus loved therefore said to Peter, “It is the Lord!”
That disciple being Lazarus, I think.

they found 153 = triangle 17 = "tov"= good = the light that God saw (to be good).

"From now on" you might see too.

[Geert van den Bos]

I guess the "ap' arti" of Matthew 26:64 has to be understood in combination with the "apo tote" of Matthew 16:21,

Ἀπὸ τότε ἤρξατο ὁ Ἰησοῦς δεικνύειν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ ὅτι δεῖ αὐτὸν εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα ἀπελθεῖν καὶ πολλὰ παθεῖν ἀπὸ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων καὶ ἀρχιερέων καὶ γραμματέων καὶ ἀποκτανθῆναι καὶ τῇ τρίτῃ ἡμέρᾳ ἐγερθῆναι.

From then on Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.


Jesus first had to be condemned to death and killed before one could "see" that he was the Messiah.

[Geert van den Bos]

"The house of God" is the place where he does abide.

His presence can not be confined to a house of wood and stone. (If you do so you make out of him an idol).

(In fact he is only present in the initial letters of "yom hashishi vay'chulu hashamayim", the last two words of Genesis 1:31 and the first two words of Genesis 2:1 - his house being the completion of creation).

cf. Acts 17:24-27

The God who made the world and all that is in it, the Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in sanctuaries made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands because he needs anything. Rather it is he who gives to everyone life and breath and everything. He made from one all nations of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he fixed the ordered seasons and the boundaries of their regions, so that people might seek God, even perhaps grope for him and find him, though indeed he is not far from any one of us.

not far = near