Some notes on "the time of the end"

[John Reece]

Everlasting, "olam" = with no beginning and no end.

The semantic range of עוֹלָם (ʿôlām) is not limited to "with no beginning and no end". The word occurs 440 times in the Hebrew Bible, with varying senses and nuances.

עוֹלָם

—1. long time, duration (usually eternal, eternity, but not in a philosophical sense) THAT 2:235f: עֶבֶד ע׳ a slave for life Dt 1517 1S 2712 Jb 4028 (Ug. ʿbd ʿlm), שִׂמְחַת ע׳ Is 3510, זֵכֶר ע׳ Ps 1126, שֵׁם ע׳ Is 565, הֲרַת ע׳ Jr 2017, חֶרְפַּת ע׳ Is 2340; ע׳ occurs thus in many phrases: with בְּרִית Gn 916 (16 times), with בְּרִית מֶלַח Nu 1819, with אֲחֻזַּת Gn 178, with חֻקַּת (23 times) Ex 1214.17. cj. Ezk 4614 see Zimmerli 1168, with חָק־ (11 times) Ex 2928 3021, with כְּהֻנַּת Ex 4015 Nu 2513, with חֶסֶד never-failing kindness Is 548.

—2. future time (THAT 2:232ff): a) עוֹלָם adv. (acc. Gesenius-K. §118q, MSS often לְע׳) Ps 618 667 892.38, cj. 48; b) with prep: לְע׳ Gn 322 (164 times), cj. Ps 875 (BHK :: BHS) and 2C 337; עַד ע׳ (Deir Alla 1:9; Hoftijzer-vdK. Deir Alla 200) Gn 1315 (60 times) and עַד לְע׳ 1C 2325 287 (cf. Ug. bʿd ʿlm, ʿd ʿlm … ʿlmt); לְע׳ parallel with לְדֹר דֹּר Ex 315; עַד ע׳ parallel with לְדֹר וָדֹר Is 3417 (7 times); ע׳ וָעֶד[ל] Ex 1518 (15 times); עַד־הָע׳ Ps 289 1333; מֵעַתָּה וְעַד־ע׳ Is 96 (8 times); עַד־עוֹלְמֵי עַד for all times Is 4517; לעולמי עד 1QH 18; לָעַד לְע׳ Ps 1118 1486; c) עוֹלָמִים times to come Ps 778 1K 813 = 2C 62 Ps 615 14513 Da 924 :: former times Qoh 110 (THAT 2:241).

—3. a long time back, dark age of prehistory (Pedersen Isr. 1–2:491; THAT 2:232): a) אֵיבַת ע׳ Ezk 2515, אַהֲבַת ע׳ Jr 313, ת ע׳(וֹ)גִּבְעֹ Gn 4926 Dt 3315, עַם ע׳ Ezk 2620, פִּתְחֵי ע׳ Ps 247.9, יְמוֹת ע׳ Dt 327, יְמֵי ע׳ Mal 34, מֵתֵי ע׳ those long dead Lam 36, Ps 1433, אֹרַח ע׳ Jb 2215 (:: Pope Job 166), נְתִבוֹת ע׳ Jr 616, ע׳ שְׁבִילֵי Jr 1815, הֲלִיכוֹת ע׳ Hab 36, גְּבוּל ע׳ Pr 2228 2310 (?); b) עוֹלָם Dt 3315 and עוֹלָמִים Is 519 parallel with קֶדֶם, ע׳ parallel with דּוֹר וָדוֹר Dt 327; c) מֵעוֹלָם ever since, from of old (THAT 2:231f): Gn 64 (15 times, Mesha 10), Sir 4221 518, cj. 2S 1318 (:: Hertzberg ATD 102:2641) and Is 447; מִן הָע׳ Jr 288 Jl 22, וְעַד הָע׳ מֵהָע׳ Ps 4114, מִן הָע׳ וְעַד הָע׳ Ps 10648, מֵע׳ עַד־ע׳ Ps 902, מֵע׳ וְעַד־ע׳ Ps 10317.

—4. of God: אֱלֹהֵי ע׳ everlasting God Is 4028 (see Seeligmann 986), אֵל ע׳ Gn 2133 (THAT 2:236f; Cross HTR 55 (1962):236ff; OSin. ʾl ḏ-ʿlm, Albright Proto-Sin. 13, 38; F.M. Cross Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic (1973):49f: “El lord of eternity”), מֶלֶךְ ע׳ Jr 1010 (cf. Ug. mlk ʿlm, THAT 2:237), זְדֹעֹת ע׳ Dt 3327 (Cross-Freedman JBL 67 (1948):20985; THAT 2:236), צוּר עוֹלָמִים Is 264; חֵי הָע׳ Da 127 (= Arm. חַי עָלְמָא Da 431) the ever-living one (see Baudissin Adonis 486ff).

—5. misc. בֵּית עוֹלָמוֹ his house of eternity, meaning grave Qoh 125 (also Deir Alla 2:6. Pun. Palm. Syr.; orig. Egyptian, see THAT 2:242; H.P. Müller ZDPV 94 (1978):63); (sense of) ע׳ placed in people’s hearts Qoh 311 (THAT 2:242; Barr Biblical Words for Time (London 1962):117f4: enduring state referring to past and future; Gese Vom Sinai zum Zion (1974):177: lapse of time :: Gray Legacy2 274f), parallel with הַכֹּל (→ כֹּל 1, a, i); עולם meaning “world” occurs first in post-Biblical Heb. (THAT 2:242f; Hertzberg KAT 17/4:100 and 106f), Palm. מרא עלמא the Lord of the World, DJD 1: no. 20:ii: line 5, p. 87 (THAT 2:242f; Galling ZThK 58 (1961):off).

The resurrected one (Jesus) lives eternal, he was already there when God said: "Let there be light"

You have not responded to my question:

Then how is it that Jeremiah speaks of a covenant to begin yet future to him?

Note the highlighted future tense verbs:

Jeremiah 31:31 The days are surely coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer. 32:40 I will make an everlasting covenant with them, never to draw back from doing good to them; and I will put the fear of me in their hearts, so that they may not turn from me.

The eternal life of Jesus Christ is not in question; rather, the question is what to make of the prophecy of a New Covenant in the book of Jeremiah, the beginning of which was yet future as of the time in which Jeremiah was living.

[Geert van den Bos]

"days are coming" -- "yamim baim" -- like "the coming age" / "the world to come" = "olam haba", and "the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven" --

i.e. in every single moment they/it/he is coming.

When not "coming" this moment would have been the last, there would not have come a second one, even not a moment to reflect.

The new testament is the very hard core of the old.

Revelation 1:9,
Ἐγώ εἰμι τὸ Ἄλφα καὶ τὸ ω, λέγει κύριος ὁ θεός, ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος, ὁ παντοκράτωρ

[Geert van den Bos]

I only saw now:

Genesis 7:1,
And the Lord said to Noah, "Come into the ark, you and all your household, for it is you that I have seen as a righteous man before Me in this generation.


in this generation: בַּדּוֹר הַזֶּה, "bador hazeh"

LXX:
καὶ εἶπεν κύριος ὁ θεὸς πρὸς νωε εἴσελθε σὺ καὶ πᾶς ὁ οἶκός σου εἰς τὴν κιβωτόν ὅτι σὲ εἶδον δίκαιον ἐναντίον μου ἐν τῇ γενεᾷ ταύτῃ


Which might prove that the Gospelwriters indeed had the story of the flood in mind with their mentioning of "this generation".

Lamech the one who fathered Noach in a way seems to be the same as the sixth generation of Cain, whose bloods "will come upon this generation" (Matthew 23:29-36).

(Genesis 4: And He said, "What have you done? Hark! Your brother's bloods cries out to Me from the ground. Rashi: bloods, Heb. דְּמֵי, the plural form. His blood and the blood of his descendants. )

Matthew 24:37,
For as were the days of Noah, so will be the presence of the Son of Man

Which might also prove that there is no difference between a first and a second coming of Christ.

[Geert van den Bos]

Matthew 24:37, ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
For as the days of Noach so will be the "parousia" of the son of man.

The disciples had asked for the sign of his "parousia".

v.3 τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, what is the sign of your "parousia" and of the completion of the world?

"The days of Noach" must denote the time that Noach was building the ark. He was kind of a carpenter, working with wood.

Matthew 28:20 seems to provide the final answer to their question:
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ' ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, See I am with you all the days until the completion of the world.

"parousia"is a form of "einai", to be.

In his being is the coming one.

As the coming one he is already now, because eternal.

You might consider that the Hebrew word for ark, "teivah", also means word (as written with letters).

[John Reece]

Matthew 24:37, ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου
For as the days of Noach so will be the "parousia" of the son of man.

The disciples had asked for the sign of his "parousia".

v.3 τί τὸ σημεῖον τῆς σῆς παρουσίας καὶ συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, what is the sign of your "parousia" and of the completion of the world?

"The days of Noach" must denote the time that Noach was building the ark. He was kind of a carpenter, working with wood.

Matthew 28:20 seems to provide the final answer to their question:
ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ' ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ αἰῶνος, See I am with you all the days until the completion of the world.

"parousia"is a form of "einai", to be.

In his being is the coming one.

As the coming one he is already now, because eternal.

Very good, Geert!

I must say that I agree more with what you have written above than I do with any other interpretation of the parousia of Jesus Christ.

[Geert van den Bos]

The wording in Matthew 24:27b and Matthew 24:37b is exactly the same:

v. 27, ὥσπερ γὰρ ἡ ἀστραπὴ ἐξέρχεται ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν καὶ φαίνεται ἕως δυσμῶν, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου

v. 37, ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.

So you can't conclude:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post245214

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus distinguishes the παρουσία (parousia "visitation" Mat 24:27) of the Son of Man from the ἐρχόμενον (erchomenon "coming" Mat 24:30) of the Son of Man. The two terms respectively refer to two different phenomena that relate to two different points in time, one ancient and the other still ― 2000+ years later ― in the indefinite future.

,

since v.27 clearly belongs to the events that will occur before this generation has passed.

I would say that the light of the lightning is like the light of the first day -- just being there for one moment. It shines in the darkness -- and the darkness cannot grasp it.

[Geert van den Bos]

If there is indeed no difference between a first and a second coming then prayer in preterist view should be for the destruction of the temple and the annihilation of the chosen people, Matthew 6:10, Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Since this is nonsense you must conclude that "this generation" is not about Jesus' contemporaries.

[John Reece]

The wording in Matthew 24:27b and Matthew 24:37b is exactly the same:

v. 27, ὥσπερ γὰρ ἡ ἀστραπὴ ἐξέρχεται ἀπὸ ἀνατολῶν καὶ φαίνεται ἕως δυσμῶν, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου

v. 37, ὥσπερ γὰρ αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ Νῶε, οὕτως ἔσται ἡ παρουσία τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.

So you can't conclude:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post245214

since v.27 clearly belongs to the events that will occur before this generation has passed.

The following is a belated response, because I had not looked at Geert's post above before this morning.

Geert fails to grasp the distinction made in the context of Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man."

From The Gospel of Matthew (NICNT: Eerdmans, 2007), by R. T. France (colored text added):

[Matthew 24:]27. This verse is a sort of “aside” which draws a sharp distinction between the events during the siege and the still future parousia. The real parousia, when it comes, will not be like the claims of impostors during the siege. The “for” which introduces this saying indicates how it fits into this context: “don’t believe them, because ….” In contrast with a so-called Messiah who has to be sought out in an obscure place and who needs authenticating signs to convince people of his claim, the parousia of the Son of Man will be as unmissable as a flash of lightning which blazes across the whole sky. This warning was perhaps prompted by the disciples’ question in verse 3 ["As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming [parousia] and of the end of the age?”] which, while differentiating the parousia and the end of the age from “these things” (the destruction of the temple), has nevertheless suggested some association between the two events, probably supposing that the one cannot occur without the other. Not so, says Jesus. The time of the siege and capture of the city will be characterized by claims and counter-claims of those who pretend to a messianic role, but the parousia of the Son of Man will need no such claims or proofs: everyone will see and recognize it (as he will go on to spell out in verses 36–44). He is thus setting the parousia and the end of the age decisively apart from the coming destruction of the temple. The one may be seen coming and prepared for (that is what verses 15ff have been about), but the other will carry no prior warning. So the disciples’ request for a “sign” for his parousia was misguided; unlike the offer of “signs” by the messianic pretenders, the Son of Man will give no warning sign of his parousia. There is no sign that lightning is coming, but when it comes no one can escape the sudden illumination.

So the mention of the parousia in this context is intended precisely to distinguish it from the events currently being considered; it will be only after a marked change of subject in verse 36 that the parousia will itself become the focus of the discourse.

If there is indeed no difference between a first and a second coming then prayer in preterist view should be for the destruction of the temple and the annihilation of the chosen people, Matthew 6:10, Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Since this is nonsense you must conclude that "this generation" is not about Jesus' contemporaries.

Since your premise ("there is indeed no difference between a first and a second coming") is not true, your conclusion is not valid.

[Geert van den Bos]

The following is a belated response, because I had not looked at Geert's post above before this morning.

Geert fails to grasp the distinction made in the context of Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man."

(...)

So the mention of the parousia in this context is intended precisely to distinguish it from the events currently being considered; it will be only after a marked change of subject in verse 36 that the parousia will itself become the focus of the discourse.[/indent]

The light of a flash of lightning is of another kind than the light of sun, moon and stars;
It is more like the light of the first day that God saw to be good (and immediately took away so that evildoers could not make use of it).

Matthew 24, 29-30, Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


It must be a seeing not with the physical eyes...

It comes to you in a flash that you cannot get hold of, just like the darkness ccould not grasp the light that was in the word (John 1:4-5)

By the way, I see, John uses here also the verb ἔρχομαι in connection with this light:

John 1:9, The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

[Geert van den Bos]

Some go even that far as to read for Mark 1:15,

"The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel"

[John Reece]

Some go even that far as to read for Mark 1:15,

"The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel"

Name a single person who reads Mark 1:15 as you suggest, or admit that your post is silly nonsense.

[Geert van den Bos]

Name a single person who reads Mark 1:15 as you suggest, or admit that your post is silly nonsense.

Dee Dee Warren in "It's not the end of the world", p.134.

[John Reece]

Some go even that far as to read for Mark 1:15,

"The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel"

Name a single person who reads Mark 1:15 as you suggest, or admit that your post is silly nonsense.

Dee Dee Warren in "It's not the end of the world", p.134.

Dee Dee Warren did NOT read/say what you allege that she read/said: that is, she did not "read for Mark 1:15," "The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel."

From It's Not the End of the World!, by Dee Dee Warren, page 134:

.... Just as Jonah preached, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" so also Jesus preached, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17), and "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). In the same way, He preached like Jonah:

Luke 13:1-3: There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

But the key―the most important text in consideration is: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34).
....

[Geert van den Bos]

Dee Dee Warren did NOT read/say what you allege that she read/said: that is, she did not "read for Mark 1:15," "The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel."

From It's Not the End of the World!, by Dee Dee Warren, page 134:

.... Just as Jonah preached, "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown!" so also Jesus preached, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17), and "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:15). In the same way, He preached like Jonah:

Luke 13:1-3: There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

But the key―the most important text in consideration is: "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place" (Matthew 24:34).
....

You are dishonest by not quoting what follows:

"Remember, He would preach to Jerusalem for three years rather than just for three days. Nineveh, through the preaching of Jonah, was given forty days to repent before destruction. whereas Jerusalem was given forty years and didn't repent. (...)

Thus while we are considering the "sign" of His coming, remember what "sign" He promised, that of Jonah - that those who would not repent would be destroyed within a specified period of time"

[John Reece]

You are dishonest by not quoting what follows:

"Remember, He would preach to Jerusalem for three years rather than just for three days. Nineveh, through the preaching of Jonah, was given forty days to repent before destruction. whereas Jerusalem was given forty years and didn't repent. (...)

Thus while we are considering the "sign" of His coming, remember what "sign" He promised, that of Jonah - that those who would not repent would be destroyed within a specified period of time"

If in fact what you have added ― to what I posted ― were something that validated your assertion that Dee Dee Warren "read for Mark 1:15,' " "The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel," you might have a point; however, what you have added from Dee Dee's book does NOT show her reading "for Mark 1:15,' " "The time has been fulfilled, yet forty years, and Jerusalem shall be overthrown, repent ye and believe the Gospel."

I posted what was sufficient to show that Dee Dee did NOT read the text of Mark 1:15 as you asserted that she did. The larger context of what Dee Dee wrote does not alter that fact.

Dee Dee's argumentation does not amount to substituting what the reading of Mark 1:15 actually says and means with something other than what the text says and means. Your assertion that her argument does that is absurd but not surprising, given your fondness for cabalistic loose associations.

Such silly assertions as you have made in this case justify my policy of requesting that you not be allowed to post in any of my threads.