What Are We Doing In Iraq?

[okcitykid]

Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

In our war against terror we find ourself in Iraq - let me ask the difficult question. Are we figting terrorists in Iraq or are we the terrorists in Iraq?

[Ryokan]

In our war against terror we find ourself in Iraq - let me ask the difficult question. Are we figting terrorists in Iraq or are we the terrorists in Iraq?

Fighting terrorists. In fact, morality of the action aside, most terrorism experts consider it impossible for states to commit terrorism. The not stateness of the action is a defining characteristic of terrorism. Defining it otherwise is not helpful. Really, what you want to ask is "Is our action in Iraq moral and lawful or not?" Right?

[Snarf]

In our war against terror we find ourself in Iraq - let me ask the difficult question. Are we figting terrorists in Iraq or are we the terrorists in Iraq?

That's the weird thing about Americans-we're all up in arms about 9-11, the horror of it all yada yada, yet it never occurs to many that OTHER countries don't necessarily enjoy having US soldiers tromping around their countries. And then the militarists wonder why isn't the US more loved in the world.

[Pitchforkpat]

Are we figting terrorists in Iraq or are we the terrorists in Iraq?

Depending on the definition you personally prefer, the US committed a glaring act of terrorism when it attacked Iraq. Remember the infamous “Shock and Awe” strategy? The US military also considered dropping nuclear bombs on cities obliterating thousands of civilians to fit the category of "Shock and Awe". That’s a lovely example of terrorism. The correct answer is you’re lying administration is creating whole new generations of terrorists.

In fact, morality of the action aside, most terrorism experts consider it impossible for states to commit terrorism.

Under okcitykid’s definition, the US has a long history of terrorism. Since you’ve used the term here, you must know what you’re talking about, so let’s hear your definition.

[jordanriver]

That's the weird thing about Americans-we're all up in arms about 9-11, the horror of it all yada yada, yet it never occurs to many that OTHER countries don't necessarily enjoy having US soldiers tromping around their countries. And then the militarists wonder why isn't the US more loved in the world.

the people in the world that hate us loved us on Sept 11, 2001. we got a lot of worldwide sympathy then.

they like us better when we're dying.

JR

[Pitchforkpat]

the people in the world that hate us loved us on Sept 11, 2001. we got a lot of worldwide sympathy then.

they like us better when we're dying

Is this meant to be a serious comment? Not sure who exactly you mean by “they” (if you even know yourself) but many Arabs hate the US for things like invading their countries and bombing their people. Many Arabs and Muslims know more about US history in the ME than most Americans and profoundly resent things like the support of dictators and repressive regimes, along with US military bases in their most sacred holy lands.

[jordanriver]

Is this meant to be a serious comment? Not sure who exactly you mean by “they” (if you even know yourself) but many Arabs hate the US for things like invading their countries and bombing their people. Many Arabs and Muslims know more about US history in the ME than most Americans and profoundly resent things like the support of dictators and repressive regimes, along with US military bases in their most sacred holy lands.

"they"?

i guess i better repeat what i wrote again and highlite it just for you:

Originally posted by jordanriver

the people in the world that hate us loved us on Sept 11, 2001. we got a lot of worldwide sympathy then.

they like us better when we're dying

maybe you didn't notice the context of the reply which was to this: (and i'll highlite the relevant part just for you again)

Originally posted by Snarf

That's the weird thing about Americans-we're all up in arms about 9-11, the horror of it all yada yada, yet it never occurs to many that OTHER countries don't necessarily enjoy having US soldiers tromping around their countries. And then the militarists wonder why isn't the US more loved in the world.

JR

[Ryokan]

Depending on the definition you personally prefer, the US committed a glaring act of terrorism when it attacked Iraq. Remember the infamous “Shock and Awe” strategy? The US military also considered dropping nuclear bombs on cities obliterating thousands of civilians to fit the category of "Shock and Awe". That’s a lovely example of terrorism. The correct answer is you’re lying administration is creating whole new generations of terrorists.

I'd say its different because it is a state doing it, and there is no systematic targeting of civilian populations. The Shock and Awe campaign meant to intimidate, but it did not target civilian populations generally, but rather infrastructure and government buildings.

Under okcitykid’s definition, the US has a long history of terrorism.

Yeah, but that's not what most people are talking about or thinking of when they discuss terrorism.

Since you’ve used the term here, you must know what you’re talking about, so let’s hear your definition.

My definition would be a nonstate organizations use of violence against civilians targets for political gain. This is what the "War on Terrorism" is about, reducing nonstate actors ability to use this tactic. It has nothing to do with state actions. So I don't think its useful in this context. Whether what we are doing in Iraq is moral is a good question, but lets ask that and not obfuscate with this "terrorism" issue.

[Pitchforkpat]

"they"?

Yes “they”. Here’s what you said:

they like us better when we're dying

i guess i better repeat what i wrote again and highlite it just for you:

the people in the world that hate us loved us on Sept 11, 2001. we got a lot of worldwide sympathy then.

That’s what I thought, but I was being kind and giving you the benefit of the doubt. So by “they” you mean “the people in the word that hate us”. Wow. So you think devout Muslims and Arabs who hate the US “loved” you on Sept. 11th? You haven’t really given this much thought have you?

And just so you know, “they” don’t hate you when you’re dying. That’s an amazingly ignorant statement. They hate you when you’re invading their country, bombing their houses, and killing their family and friends.

Tell me, do you actually know why 9/11 happened? If you don’t know, I’ll understand. If you do know, please tell me.

[jordanriver]

Yes “they”. Here’s what you said:




That’s what I thought, but I was being kind and giving you the benefit of the doubt. So by “they” you mean “the people in the word that hate us”. Wow. So you think devout Muslims and Arabs who hate the US “loved” you on Sept. 11th? You haven’t really given this much thought have you?

And just so you know, “they” don’t hate you when you’re dying. That’s an amazingly ignorant statement. They hate you when you’re invading their country, bombing their houses, and killing their family and friends.

Tell me, do you actually know why 9/11 happened? If you don’t know, I’ll understand. If you do know, please tell me.

The hijackers wanted to kill Americans.

JR

[Pitchforkpat]

My definition would be a nonstate organizations use of violence against civilians targets for political gain. This is what the "War on Terrorism" is about, reducing nonstate actors ability to use this tactic. It has nothing to do with state actions.

Fair enough. I wouldn’t mind your thoughts on a few questions if you don’t mind indulging me. When Hussein used chemical weapons to obliterate thousands of Kurds, was that a terrorist act? Were the US backed Contra Rebels terrorists? Was the Boston Tea Party a terrorist act? Just curious. It’s an interesting subject.

[Snarf]

The hijackers wanted to kill Americans.

JR

Just like the American government wants to kill Arabs and Iraqis.

[Ryokan]

Fair enough. I wouldn’t mind your thoughts on a few questions if you don’t mind indulging me.

Okay.

When Hussein used chemical weapons to obliterate thousands of Kurds, was that a terrorist act?

No, that was a war crime.

Were the US backed Contra Rebels terrorists?

Yes. Which makes the US guilty of funding terrorism. But not of terrorism itself.

Was the Boston Tea Party a terrorist act? Just curious. It’s an interesting subject.

That's a toughy. I need to read up on just what happened. American forces committed terrorism through the revolutionary period, but mostly they were just guerrillas, and command focused on the British military..

[jordanriver]

Just like the American government wants to kill Arabs and Iraqis.

we do now.
which side are you rooting for?

To be fair though to my side, (the Americans) I believe our troops go out of their way to avoid killing innocent civilians, and take chances which gets our guys killed. The other side doesn't worry about little inconveniences like that. If it was true that all we wanted to do was kill Arabs and Iraqis we would just do the same thing we did to Hiroshima and Nagasaki to avoid putting our soldiers in danger.

dont forget to answer the main question.

Which side are you rooting for?

JR

[okcitykid]

Fighting terrorists. In fact, morality of the action aside, most terrorism experts consider it impossible for states to commit terrorism. The not stateness of the action is a defining characteristic of terrorism. Defining it otherwise is not helpful. Really, what you want to ask is "Is our action in Iraq moral and lawful or not?" Right?

Right. But I do this because we so easly say that we are fighting terrorism as if that makes it right.

But if we take away terrorism and replace it with people, you will have a more truthful statement and get a better picture of the reality.

Because in fact we don't know who is and who isn't a terrorist, we're just killing people.

We are in a war against people in Iraq - that is a more true statement.