How is Calvinism not Fatalism?

[TheAnalogman]

Definition of Fatalism

From m-w. com:
A doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine.

Dictionary.com:
Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

AHD: Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

WorldNet:
a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them.

From the Westminster Larger Catechism
Question 12: What are the decrees of God?
Answer: God's decrees are the wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he has, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained: Whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men.
(Emphasis mine)

Question:
If Salvation has been decided by God, and God alone, before the foundation of the earth through election of some, and reprobation for others, how is that not fatalism, especially for the reprobate??

[The Plain Jane]

I didn't know Calvinists claimed that they are different.

Is there a particular post or thread you have in mind?

I mean, I agree with you though.

[Xavier]

The short answer is that Fatalism is not determinism.

Fatalism is the notion that certain events are decreed to happen and there is nothing a man can willing do to avoid it. (Think Oedipus Rex).

Determinism holds that all events are modally necessary.

[RanRan]

The short answer is that Fatalism is not determinism.

Fatalism is the notion that certain events are decreed to happen and there is nothing a man can willing do to avoid it. (Think Oedipus Rex).

Determinism holds that all events are modally necessary.

So if God has decreed that He desires that none should perish, then none will perish by necessity. Is that correct?

[Xavier]

So if God has decreed that He desires that none should perish, then none will perish by necessity. Is that correct?

Depends who you ask... I don't hold God's decrees to be necessary.

[TheAnalogman]

The short answer is that Fatalism is not determinism.

Fatalism is the notion that certain events are decreed to happen and there is nothing a man can willing do to avoid it. (Think Oedipus Rex).

Determinism holds that all events are modally necessary.

It's not necessary for some "unbroken chain of events" when the decision was from all eternity. That's just a by-product.

[Xavier]

It's not necessary for some "unbroken chain of events" when the decision was from all eternity. That's just a by-product.

I don't think I follow you correctly.

[Philosophickle]

So if God has decreed that He desires that none should perish, then none will perish by necessity. Is that correct?

No, because God has a multiplicity of wills. He's just a little confused about which of the voices to listen to .

[TheAnalogman]

No, because God has a multiplicity of wills. He's just a little confused about which of the voices to listen to .

Why are you posting in Theology 201?

[Sir Meep]

Why are you posting in Theology 201?

Er... Philosophickle's a Christian.

[Philosophickle]

Why are you posting in Theology 201?

Silly .

[TheAnalogman]

Er... Philosophickle's a Christian.

Ok. Thanks. How am I supposed to know?

[TheAnalogman]

I don't think I follow you correctly.

Ok. I may not be explaining correctly. I'll try this.

The WLC answer to question #12 is not determinism, it's fatalism.

[Sir Meep]

Definition of Fatalism

From m-w. com:
A doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine.

Dictionary.com:
Philosophy. the doctrine that all events are subject to fate or inevitable predetermination.

AHD: Acceptance of the belief that all events are predetermined and inevitable.

WorldNet:
a philosophical doctrine holding that all events are predetermined in advance for all time and human beings are powerless to change them.

From the Westminster Larger Catechism
Question 12: What are the decrees of God?
Answer: God's decrees are the wise, free, and holy acts of the counsel of his will, whereby, from all eternity, he has, for his own glory, unchangeably foreordained: Whatsoever comes to pass in time, especially concerning angels and men.
(Emphasis mine)

Question:
If Salvation has been decided by God, and God alone, before the foundation of the earth through election of some, and reprobation for others, how is that not fatalism, especially for the reprobate??

This argument might have some weight, if one takes into consideration all of the factors involved in total predestination. Compatibilism holds that while all of our actions throughout time are in fact, necessary, we still hold a degree of "free will" since we still do whatever it is in our nature to do (for instance, God doesn't over-ride our minds and make us do something we don't wish to do, like running into the middle of oncoming traffic when one is really intending to eat a pizza, or something like that).

However, the problem might be said to come in at this part: God is ultimately responsible for creating our natures and all of the characteristics of such natures. Since as humans, we are incapable of changing our own natures, in a sense, we have absolutely no way to change what we have been programmed to do in virtue of the way we have been pre-programmed to be, therefore, in a sense, we are fated to do whatever it is that happens to be in our nature to do.

Perhaps this is what you've been trying to communicate? ^_^

[Philosophickle]

Ok. Thanks. How am I supposed to know?

Let's hope that this will be the end of this...

I hope to impress my Christianity upon others through my conduct rather than a generic symbol. Of course, most of the time I am not the shining example of Christ I am called to be. For that, I am sorry.