Announcement

Collapse

Civics 101 Guidelines

Want to argue about politics? Healthcare reform? Taxes? Governments? You've come to the right place!

Try to keep it civil though. The rules still apply here.
See more
See less

Requiring IDs to vote - can't we just stop there?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Requiring IDs to vote - can't we just stop there?

    I've never had a major problem with the idea of requiring voter ID to vote. However, in Kansas, first time voters are now also required to provide proof of citizenship to register. This includes a passport or a birth certificate. Many lower income voters are unlikely to have these sitting around and they can be relatively expensive to replace. This isn't a poll tax per se but given how difficult it could be for certain voters to get them, I think it violates the spirit of the law that prompted that constitutional amendment. (The Secretary of State also hasn't produced any evidence that immigrants are lining up to illegally register to vote, either.) I'll be honest, offhand, I don't know where my birth certificate is.

    This especially looks suspicious given that some irregularities have been detected in the state's last election and the Secretary of State has \rebuffed attempts to look into it/.

    (There has been some talk that Secretary of State Kobach might run for governor, but the Koch Brothers, who are very key to state Republican politics, are reportedly not that keen on his singular focus on illegal immigration as an issue.)
    Last edited by KingsGambit; 09-19-2015, 09:11 PM.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

  • #2
    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I've never had a major problem with the idea of requiring voter ID to vote. However, in Kansas, first time voters are now also required to provide proof of citizenship to register. This includes a passport or a birth certificate. Many lower income voters are unlikely to have these sitting around and they can be relatively expensive to replace. This isn't a poll tax per se but given how difficult it could be for certain voters to get them, I think it violates the spirit of the law that prompted that constitutional amendment. (The Secretary of State also hasn't produced any evidence that immigrants are lining up to illegally register to vote, either.) I'll be honest, offhand, I don't know where my birth certificate is.

    This especially looks suspicious given that some irregularities have been detected in the state's last election and the Secretary of State has \rebuffed attempts to look into it/.

    (There has been some talk that Secretary of State Kobach might run for governor, but the Koch Brothers, who are very key to state Republican politics, are reportedly not that keen on his singular focus on illegal immigration as an issue.)
    I'd say that if the point were to protect the integrity of the system, we'd see a response proportional to the abuse. And given that in-person voter fraud is infinitesimally small but red states are spending millions of dollars implementing and enforcing Voter ID, we're clearly not looking at a proportional response.

    In that light, Kansas' actions are rational. The point is not to protect the system but to discourage voting among poorer and minority voters who tend to vote Democratic. And if that's the point, why not be in for a pound?
    "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

    Comment


    • #3
      To register or to vote? If the former, it's a non-issue - they have to have the same documentation to get a driver's license initially. It's no great hardship to do it the one time.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • #4
        Seems like the standard Republican ploy, that's been going on across America, by making it hard for poor people to register to vote because poor people typically vote Democrat. If they feel like they need a legitimate-sounding cover for their voter-suppression, they pretend that "voter fraud" exists and pretend to be really concerned about it.

        Requiring IDs to vote is itself totally unnecessary, and going way too far in the direction of voter suppression.

        In the US the other big problem is that convicted felons are not allowed to vote:
        Wiki:
        The United States is among the most punitive nations in the world when it comes to denying the vote to those who have been convicted of a felony offence...

        As of 2008 over 5.3 million people in the United States were denied the right to vote due to felony disenfranchisement. Approximately 13% of the United States' population is African American, yet African Americans make up 38% of the American prison population. Slightly more than 15% of the United States population is Hispanic, while 20% of the prison population is Hispanic. People who are felons are disproportionately people of color. In the United States, felony disenfranchisement laws disproportionately affect communities of color as "they are disproportionately arrested, convicted, and subsequently denied the right to vote". Research has shown that as much as 10% of the population in some minority communities in the United States are unable to vote as a result of felony disenfranchisement.

        Given people of color typically vote Democrat, it then becomes easy for Republicans to suppress a lot of Democratic vote via this mechanism.


        I'm a big supporter of the idea that voting should be compulsory, and I think lack of compulsory voting is something that we do wrong here in NZ currently. If people can be compelled to do jury service, then it's not unreasonable to compel them to actually cast a vote as to how their country should be run (they can, of course, choose to spoil their ballot if they actually don't want to vote for any party!).
        Last edited by Starlight; 09-20-2015, 01:31 AM.
        "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
        "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
        "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          Seems like the standard Republican ploy, that's been going on across America, by making it hard for poor people to register to vote because poor people typically vote Democrat. If they feel like they need a legitimate-sounding cover for their voter-suppression, they pretend that "voter fraud" exists and pretend to be really concerned about it.

          Requiring IDs to vote is itself totally unnecessary, and going way too far in the direction of voter suppression.

          In the US the other big problem is that convicted felons are not allowed to vote:
          Wiki:
          The United States is among the most punitive nations in the world when it comes to denying the vote to those who have been convicted of a felony offence...

          As of 2008 over 5.3 million people in the United States were denied the right to vote due to felony disenfranchisement. Approximately 13% of the United States' population is African American, yet African Americans make up 38% of the American prison population. Slightly more than 15% of the United States population is Hispanic, while 20% of the prison population is Hispanic. People who are felons are disproportionately people of color. In the United States, felony disenfranchisement laws disproportionately affect communities of color as "they are disproportionately arrested, convicted, and subsequently denied the right to vote". Research has shown that as much as 10% of the population in some minority communities in the United States are unable to vote as a result of felony disenfranchisement.

          Given people of color typically vote Democrat, it then becomes easy for Republicans to suppress a lot of Democratic vote via this mechanism.


          I'm a big supporter of the idea that voting should be compulsory, and I think lack of compulsory voting is something that we do wrong here in NZ currently. If people can be compelled to do jury service, then it's not unreasonable to compel them to actually cast a vote as to how their country should be run (they can, of course, choose to spoil their ballot if they actually don't want to vote for any party!).
          Interesting that the part of the quote that you decided to chop out mentions how this is part of the U.S. Constitution.

          In the U.S., the constitution implicitly permits the States to adopt rules about disenfranchisement "for participation in rebellion, or other crime", by the fourteenth amendment, section 2. It is up to the states to decide which crimes could be ground for disenfranchisement, and they are not formally bound to restrict this to felonies; however, in most cases, they do.


          Not to mention the part that only two states still impose a lifelong prohibition on voting for those with a felony record and neither of them are "red states" but would better we considered "purple" with Virginia becoming bluer and bluer after each election.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Interesting that the part of the quote that you decided to chop out mentions how this is part of the U.S. Constitution.
            The Constitution implies States are allowed to do it, it doesn't require that they do.

            Not to mention the part that only two states still impose a lifelong prohibition on voting for those with a felony record and neither of them are "red states"
            Kentucky is not a red state? I'll grant you Virginia is turning purple.

            The article mentions the state with the largest number of felony-disenfranchised voters is Florida (which played a somewhat pivotal role in the 2000 Presidential election if I recall correctly...), and the Republican governor Rick Scott recently made changes there in order to disenfranchise more people, and the Republican governor in Iowa did likewise.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey man, they've only got Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, a 5/1 Split R/D in the House. So its basically purple

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Jaecp View Post
                Hey man, they've only got Mitch McConnell, Rand Paul, a 5/1 Split R/D in the House. So its basically purple
                The Governor is a Democrat. The Lt. Governor is a Democrat. The Democrats control the state House of Representatives but the Republicans control the state Senate. And it's at the state level (overwhelmingly under Democrat control) where this decision was made.

                Did you leave these inconvenient facts out due to ignorance or on purpose?

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                  To register or to vote? If the former, it's a non-issue - they have to have the same documentation to get a driver's license initially. It's no great hardship to do it the one time.
                  It may be for somebody who can't shell out the fee to replace their birth certificate (and who may not be able to afford to drive in the first place and thus might not have the driver's license).

                  Voting of course is a constitutionally guaranteed right whereas driving is not.
                  Last edited by KingsGambit; 09-20-2015, 12:55 PM.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    It may be for somebody who can't shell out the fee to replace their birth certificate (and who may not be able to afford to drive in the first place and thus might not have the driver's license).

                    Voting of course is a constitutionally guaranteed right whereas driving is not.
                    Specious.

                    A Birth Certificate comes in handy anyway.

                    If voting is so important to that poor person, they can squirrel away some dough to pay for it. Same for a photo ID.

                    And if it's so important, have DNC pay for the documentation. A person that poor and dependent will vote Democrat anyway.

                    [Edited: Since it's a constitution right, the gummit should help in the same manner it spews out welfare.]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by klaus54 View Post
                      Specious.

                      If voting is so important to that poor person, they can squirrel away some dough to pay for it.
                      These were the same arguments in favor of poll taxes, which the Constitution specifically prohibits.

                      It seems to me like you're okay with just making it as difficult as possible since it would help your political party
                      Last edited by KingsGambit; 09-20-2015, 03:22 PM.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I know I've mentioned this before, but it may have been before the Big Crash.

                        But if South Africa can sort out having to have an ID book in order to vote, while dealing with poverty that makes some of the poorest Americans seem rich, and the government can ensure that everyone has one (and you need it for more than just voting, you need it for just about everything), then you guys should be able to do it in a manner that ensures it isn't a "poll tax".

                        You now also need unabridged birth certificates for your kids if you wanting to cross a border in or out of South Africa (and that's a separate document you have to pay for) in addition to their passport.
                        Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                        1 Corinthians 16:13

                        "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                        -Ben Witherington III

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          It may be for somebody who can't shell out the fee to replace their birth certificate (and who may not be able to afford to drive in the first place and thus might not have the driver's license).

                          Voting of course is a constitutionally guaranteed right whereas driving is not.
                          Over the course of two years? Are they gonna starve when it comes time to apply for Social Security?
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Raphael View Post
                            I know I've mentioned this before, but it may have been before the Big Crash.

                            But if South Africa can sort out having to have an ID book in order to vote, while dealing with poverty that makes some of the poorest Americans seem rich, and the government can ensure that everyone has one (and you need it for more than just voting, you need it for just about everything), then you guys should be able to do it in a manner that ensures it isn't a "poll tax".

                            You now also need unabridged birth certificates for your kids if you wanting to cross a border in or out of South Africa (and that's a separate document you have to pay for) in addition to their passport.
                            If the goal was for these people to actually get registered easily, it would certainly happen. That's not the goal, however, as the process for getting these documents is often convoluted and having to go even one or two levels down can start imposing significant personal costs.

                            The states could do this in a more streamlined fashion and all states have to at least make a showing of helping people get these documents in a timely and free manner ... but frequent hurdles and roadblocks remain.

                            It can be done in much easier ways and if the goal was protecting the system while protecting the right to vote, it would be. Since that's not the case, at least one of these conditionals doesn't match up with the legislatures' intent.
                            "I wonder about the trees. / Why do we wish to bear / Forever the noise of these / More than another noise / So close to our dwelling place?" — Robert Frost, "The Sound of Trees"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Sam View Post
                              If the goal was for these people to actually get registered easily, it would certainly happen. That's not the goal, however, as the process for getting these documents is often convoluted and having to go even one or two levels down can start imposing significant personal costs.

                              The states could do this in a more streamlined fashion and all states have to at least make a showing of helping people get these documents in a timely and free manner ... but frequent hurdles and roadblocks remain.

                              It can be done in much easier ways and if the goal was protecting the system while protecting the right to vote, it would be. Since that's not the case, at least one of these conditionals doesn't match up with the legislatures' intent.
                              Well then steal the march on this who are thinking it as a handy poll tax.

                              If the Democrat leaders said "yes, we will require you to have voter ID" and then put in mechanisms that streamlined the process and ensured that people got their first ID at no cost to themselves and that the replacement cost was not prohibitive, you would ensure that those asking to there to be voter ID have that request, and you will ensure that it's not a poll tax.

                              If you can take away your opponent shouting point rather than yelling back at him, it's always a better political option.
                              Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong.
                              1 Corinthians 16:13

                              "...he [Doherty] is no historian and he is not even conversant with the historical discussions of the very matters he wants to pontificate on."
                              -Ben Witherington III

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by little_monkey, 03-27-2024, 04:19 PM
                              16 responses
                              160 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post One Bad Pig  
                              Started by whag, 03-26-2024, 04:38 PM
                              53 responses
                              400 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Mountain Man  
                              Started by rogue06, 03-26-2024, 11:45 AM
                              25 responses
                              114 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post rogue06
                              by rogue06
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 09:21 AM
                              33 responses
                              198 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post Roy
                              by Roy
                               
                              Started by Hypatia_Alexandria, 03-26-2024, 08:34 AM
                              84 responses
                              379 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post JimL
                              by JimL
                               
                              Working...
                              X