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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

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Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

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Questions for Arminianism.

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  • Questions for Arminianism.

    Is God omniscient?

    In the judgement the lost ultimately perish. Regardless whether the dead are resurrected from Hades or from death or from the sea. The lost are identified as those whose names are not found in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

    People whose names are in the book of life are the ones who are ultimately saved.

    The concept of being saved and then lost, to me, is a non sequitur. And makes Christianity effectively no different than non-Christian faiths.

    If a person is saved they do not go to hell. If a person remains lost they perish.

    The second question. What must one do to keep saved? In other words, what must one do to keep from leaving the faith?

    As given answers to these questions, I may have further questions.

    Lastly please provide Scripture references supporting your answer. Thanks.

    Just note, it is my personal view that God alone does the saving and God alone does the keeping. That salvation is in God's grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone.


    So please when you write your answers be mindful of my view.
    Last edited by 37818; 09-19-2015, 09:34 PM.
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    OK, let's start here:

    1 Tim.2

    1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    1 Tim. 4

    9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

    So does God desire all men to be saved and is He the Savior of all men?
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by seer View Post
      OK, let's start here:

      1 Tim.2

      1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

      1 Tim. 4

      9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

      So does God desire all men to be saved and is He the Savior of all men?
      I agree.

      God, even so knows those who will believe and who will not.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        I agree that the idea of being "saved" and then lost is idiotic. Being saved means you are saved from hell. If you ultimately go to hell, then you were never saved from hell.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by 37818 View Post
          I agree.

          God, even so knows those who will believe and who will not.
          So you agree that God desires all men to be saved? You said: Just note, it is my personal view that God alone does the saving and God alone does the keeping. That salvation is in God's grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone. If this is correct then why aren't all men saved, since God desires it?
          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            OK, let's start here:

            1 Tim.2

            1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

            1 Tim. 4

            9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

            So does God desire all men to be saved and is He the Savior of all men?
            God has posted in scripture the parameters within which one must be confined if he is to save them...
            And yes, it is the will/desire of all men to be saved..
            1 Timothy 2:3-5King James Version (KJV)
            3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
            4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

            5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

            In spite of God's desire that all men be saved, why do some perish? According to 2 Thessalonians 2:10
            And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

            They perish in spite of God's desire that it be otherwise because they received not {rejected} the love of truth that they might be saved. IT WAS NOT BECAUSE OF SOME ORIGINAL REJECTION BY GOD...
            Why
            Last edited by dacristoy; 10-02-2015, 12:11 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm confused.
              Why did 37818 "Amen" the prior Post #6? It seems to contradict his OP. Hopefully he changed his mind, that would be unexpected given the didactic tone of the OP.
              If he has not changed his mind, I don't think I want to hear his rationalization. If someone else can see the rationale, I would appreciate your input to help me see what I don't see.
              Near the Peoples' Republic of Davis, south of the State of Jefferson (Suspended between Left and Right)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Is God omniscient?

                In the judgement the lost ultimately perish. Regardless whether the dead are resurrected from Hades or from death or from the sea. The lost are identified as those whose names are not found in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

                People whose names are in the book of life are the ones who are ultimately saved.

                The concept of being saved and then lost, to me, is a non sequitur. And makes Christianity effectively no different than non-Christian faiths.

                If a person is saved they do not go to hell. If a person remains lost they perish.
                I agree that those who are found in the Book of Life are the ones who are ultimately saved. If scripture has two statements about the exact same thing are they both true or does one trump the other because of ones beliefs? Scripture says the names are written from the foundation of the world in Rev 13:8. But, the question is, can those names be removed? Scripture says yes:
                Psalm 69:28
                May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
                Revelation 3:5
                He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.



                The second question. What must one do to keep saved? In other words, what must one do to keep from leaving the faith?

                As given answers to these questions, I may have further questions.

                Lastly please provide Scripture references supporting your answer. Thanks.

                Just note, it is my personal view that God alone does the saving and God alone does the keeping. That salvation is in God's grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone.


                So please when you write your answers be mindful of my view.
                One keeps believing and trusting in Christ alone for their salvation
                "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  I agree that those who are found in the Book of Life are the ones who are ultimately saved. If scripture has two statements about the exact same thing are they both true or does one trump the other because of ones beliefs? Scripture says the names are written from the foundation of the world in Rev 13:8. But, the question is, can those names be removed? Scripture says yes:
                  Psalm 69:28
                  May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.
                  Revelation 3:5
                  He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
                  I do not agree with the idea that one should take one holy scripture to trump another holy scripture. Rather that all holy scriptures are true to there true intended meaning.

                  Now Revelation 13:8 is of interest here.

                  "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." - NASB, alternate reading. "All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain from the foundation of the world."

                  There is more than one issue with this verse.
                  The phrase ". . . from the foundation of the world." is often misinterpreted to have the sense of meaning "out of." By reason the word translated "from" refers to "origin." But the word can correctly be understood as "since." See Luke 11:50, ". . . That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from . . . " since the foundation of the world.

                  The phrase "has not been written." Can and is often understood to mean to have never been written. The "has" in English carries that sense in that translation. I disagree with this. The grammar of that translation is correct. The problem is how to say this in English.

                  ". . . And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. . . ." -- KJV. This can be understood that the names are not written (past tense) [because they were previously removed.]

                  I accept the idea names in the book of life can be blotted out. And the promise to those who have overcome this world through faith in Christ (1 John 5:4, 5), their names will not in any way be blotted out. The Greek here is an emphatic will not. ". . . He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, . . ." -- Revelation 3:5, NASB.

                  So I believe by reason that Christ has died for everyone (1 John 2:2), that eveyone's name is in the book of life until it is removed.

                  Now if we understand some names were never written in the book (13:8), then the Calvinist view of limited atonement is proven by this one verse (13:8) to be true.



                  One keeps believing and trusting in Christ alone for their salvation
                  Either one is saved or one is yet lost (1 John 5:12) on the way to have his name removed. God is the one who saves. Not our act of trust.
                  Last edited by 37818; 10-13-2015, 09:12 AM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    Is God omniscient?

                    In the judgement the lost ultimately perish. Regardless whether the dead are resurrected from Hades or from death or from the sea. The lost are identified as those whose names are not found in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

                    People whose names are in the book of life are the ones who are ultimately saved.
                    This is representative of a Roman city register. There is some evidence that in the city of Sardis a person’s name was sometimes removed from the city register before death if he had been convicted of a crime. Please look at what historians call Damnatio memoriae.

                    The concept of being saved and then lost, to me, is a non sequitur. And makes Christianity effectively no different than non-Christian faiths.
                    Because you see "saved" as a monolithic event. It isn't. We were saved at our krisis and we will ultimately be saved at our resurrection due to our perseverance in the faith. But between those two episodes stands the free will of humans, and the real threat of apostasy. One can not leave what one was never really a member of.


                    If a person is saved they do not go to hell. If a person remains lost they perish.
                    Not necessarily. See above on the difference between salvation events.

                    The second question. What must one do to keep saved? In other words, what must one do to keep from leaving the faith?
                    Not commit apostasy.

                    As given answers to these questions, I may have further questions.
                    I hope so.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      Because you see "saved" as a monolithic event. It isn't. We were saved at our krisis and we will ultimately be saved at our resurrection due to our perseverance in the faith. But between those two episodes stands the free will of humans, and the real threat of apostasy. One can not leave what one was never really a member of.
                      37818's interpretation or definition is as acceptable as yours, afaics
                      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Truthseeker View Post
                        37818's interpretation or definition is as acceptable as yours, afaics
                        37's interpretation ignores apostasy.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        - Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hebrews 9:27,
                          . . . And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: . . .


                          Revelation 20:11-15,
                          And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          This is representative of a Roman city register. There is some evidence that in the city of Sardis a person’s name was sometimes removed from the city register before death if he had been convicted of a crime. Please look at what historians call Damnatio memoriae.
                          This is not Biblical in any way.
                          The book of life is first referenced in the book of Law.
                          Exodus 32:32,
                          . . . Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. . . .



                          Because you see "saved" as a monolithic event. It isn't. We were saved at our krisis and we will ultimately be saved at our resurrection due to our perseverance in the faith. But between those two episodes stands the free will of humans, and the real threat of apostasy. One can not leave what one was never really a member of.
                          Sanctification and being saved is a state of genuine Christians.

                          1 Corinthians 6:11,
                          . . . And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. . . .

                          Ephesians 2:5, 8,
                          . . . Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) . . .

                          . . . For [by] grace ye are saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: . . .


                          Not necessarily. See above on the difference between salvation events.
                          None of the salvation events contradict a status of having been saved.



                          Not commit apostasy.
                          In the parable of the sower, it is the stony ground which apostatizes. Never the good ground.


                          I hope so.
                          Where in the written word of God does a saved person loose salvation? You use only argument without clear Biblical support.

                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          37's interpretation ignores apostasy.
                          You think? Again, in the parable of the sower only the stony ground apostatizes.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Is God omniscient?

                            In the judgement the lost ultimately perish. Regardless whether the dead are resurrected from Hades or from death or from the sea. The lost are identified as those whose names are not found in the book of life (Revelation 20:15).

                            People whose names are in the book of life are the ones who are ultimately saved.

                            The concept of being saved and then lost, to me, is a non sequitur. And makes Christianity effectively no different than non-Christian faiths.

                            If a person is saved they do not go to hell. If a person remains lost they perish.
                            Yes, God is omniscient.


                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            The second question. What must one do to keep saved? In other words, what must one do to keep from leaving the faith?

                            As given answers to these questions, I may have further questions.

                            Lastly please provide Scripture references supporting your answer. Thanks.

                            Just note, it is my personal view that God alone does the saving and God alone does the keeping. That salvation is in God's grace alone through faith alone in God's Christ alone.

                            I have never really liked the term 'losing one's salvation' - as it is more about apostatizing from the faith. Obviously, if one does not persevere to the end, then that person does not attain the fullness of salvation.

                            It is really more about staying in relationship with God. So long as you persist in that, you are fine. IOW, the promises of God are only given to those in Christ - and we are brought into union in Christ by faith. Nothing can be inherited apart from Him.



                            As a side note, it is interesting to read what some of the Church Fathers' had to say with regards to similar issues:

                            "It is not because God knows that something is going to be that that thing is going to be, but rather it is because it is going to be that it is known by God before it comes to be. For even if we imagine for the sake of argument that God does not foreknow anything it was without a doubt going to happen that, say Judas became a traitor, and this is just the way the prophets foretold it would happen. Therefore, it was not because the prophets foretold it that Judas became a traitor, but rather it was because he was going to be a traitor that the prophets foretold the things that he was going to do by his wicked designs, even though Judas most certainly had it within his power to be like Peter and John if he had so willed; but he chose the desire for money over the glory of apostolic companionship, and the prophets, foreseeing that this choice of his, handed it down in their books. Moreover, in order that you might understand that the cause of each person’s salvation is to be found not I God’s foreknowledge but in that person’s intentions and actions, notice that Paul tormented his body and subjected it to servitude because he feared that, after having preached to others, he himself might perhaps become reprobate." - Origen


                            The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. -Irenaeus
                            Last edited by phat8594; 10-27-2015, 06:10 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              Again, in the parable of the sower only the stony ground apostatizes.

                              My understanding of the parable of the sower is that the stony ground represents the person who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy" (Mt. 13:20; Mk. 4:16; Luke 8:13), whereas the good soil represents the person "hears the word and understands it" (Mt. 13:23), "hear the word and accept it" (Mk 4:20) or "are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast" (Luke 8:15)

                              That is, the stony ground represents those who had an emotional experience, a foxhole experience, or heard an emotional sermon, and had an emotional response without ever really understanding the message. They had no root. (I notice all three gospels in the NASB have "firm" italicized. But the fourth soil represents those who understood and received the message, whether with an emotional experience or not.

                              Can it be said the the former type became apostates? How can they fall away from where they never really were in the first place?
                              When I Survey....

                              Comment

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