Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Questions for Arminianism.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Originally posted by theophilus View Post
    Apostasy is possible but an apostate is not a believer who turns from the truth but someone who professed to be a believer but was not really saved.
    Then they were not apostates. apostasia was used in the classics to refer to soldiers who defected from the Roman Army. One could not defect from what one was not a member of.

    Those who profess Christ are warned to make sure they really are saved.
    Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
    (2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV)
    Correct. Because the Corinthians were bragging about being "super-Christians", and Paul was telling them they better examine themselves to see if they were Christians to start with. This has nothing to do with apostasy though.


    We must guard against becoming apostates by making sure our salvation is real. Because there is a lot of false teaching concerning salvation it is possible for a person to make a profession of faith, join a church, and believe that he is a Christian when in fact he is not.
    And if he is not, he can not desert what he was not a member of. Therefore, if he was not a Christian, he can not be an apostate.

    There was a time when I was in that situation. I believed that the way to be saved was to be baptized in water and live a life of good works. During this time I could have become an apostate by turning from what I knew of the truth.
    Unless you had a salvation experience through the grace of God by faith, no you couldn't.

    I am thankful that that didn't happen but instead God allowed me to hear and understand the gospel and become a real believer. I have been reborn spiritually and received the gift of eternal life. My salvation is entirely a work of God and when he starts something he finishes it.
    Unless you choose to break the fellowship. Like a marriage, no outside force can break it up. Only the participants, and God has already declared that HE would not break it.

    And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
    (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
    Correct. God is faithful and is a God of His Word, meaning He will never leave us. We on the other hand have the potential to break the bond and become apostates. At that point, there is no renewing us unto repentance (Hebrews 10)
    That's what
    - She

    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
    - Stephen R. Donaldson

    Comment


    • #32
      Consider Jesus' words,

      "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Consider Jesus' words,

        "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
        Exactly right. Works do not save us, no matter whose name we claim to be doing them in. Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
        That's what
        - She

        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
        - Stephen R. Donaldson

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by theophilus View Post
          Apostasy is possible but an apostate is not a believer who turns from the truth but someone who professed to be a believer but was not really saved. Those who profess Christ are warned to make sure they really are saved.
          Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
          (2 Corinthians 13:5 ESV)

          We must guard against becoming apostates by making sure our salvation is real. Because there is a lot of false teaching concerning salvation it is possible for a person to make a profession of faith, join a church, and believe that he is a Christian when in fact he is not. There was a time when I was in that situation. I believed that the way to be saved was to be baptized in water and live a life of good works. During this time I could have become an apostate by turning from what I knew of the truth. I am thankful that that didn't happen but instead God allowed me to hear and understand the gospel and become a real believer. I have been reborn spiritually and received the gift of eternal life. My salvation is entirely a work of God and when he starts something he finishes it.
          And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
          (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
          Not quite sure how you can leave something that you were never REALLY a part of...

          To be an apostate, would assume you were a legitimate believer before 'leaving'.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Consider Jesus' words,

            "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
            Love this verse. And I always find it curious when people (pretty much everyone) doesn't notice this part:

            Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

            or as another translation puts it:

            Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

            and

            And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.


            In other words, the idea of apostasy is nowhere in here.

            Rather, it is regarding those who on the day of judgment will claim to know Christ and claim to testify it by their 'works' (and those of power).

            Of course, I find it interesting that Jesus basically says that their works were works of lawlessness, or iniquity -- not works of righteousness. They clearly did not do 'the will of the Father'.


            So there is a juxtaposition here of those who say 'Lord, lord' (clearly empty words), and those who live a life of faith in Christ (those that do the will of the Father).
            Last edited by phat8594; 11-05-2015, 05:20 PM.

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by phat8594 View Post
              Love this verse. And I always find it curious when people (pretty much everyone) doesn't notice this part:

              Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

              or as another translation puts it:

              Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven

              and

              And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.


              In other words, the idea of apostasy is nowhere in here.

              Rather, it is regarding those who on the day of judgment will claim to know Christ and claim to testify it by their 'works' (and those of power).

              Of course, I find it interesting that Jesus basically says that their works were works of lawlessness, or iniquity -- not works of righteousness. They clearly did not do 'the will of the Father'.


              So there is a juxtaposition here of those who say 'Lord, lord' (clearly empty words), and those who live a life of faith in Christ (those that do the will of the Father).
              The will of the Father is to receive His redemptive grace without any merit of works.

              Works of lawlessness is the state of all mankind without God's intervening grace.

              ". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. . . ." -- Galatians 5:19-21.

              ". . . Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. . . . " -- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

              ". . . For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. . . ." -- Ephesians 5:5-6.

              ". . . But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. . . ." -- Revelation 21:8.
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                The concept of being saved and then lost, to me, is a non sequitur. [It] makes Christianity effectively no different than non-Christian faiths. (emphasis in original; slightly edited)
                Past, present, and future salvation must be properly distinguished. Once it is conceded that humans have been granted a measure of libertarian (or contra-causal) freedom,[1] it should not be difficult for us to imagine either an unbeliever becoming a believer or a believer becoming an unbeliever. For our purposes here, what this means is that one may attain initial salvation and yet fail to inherit final (or eschatological) salvation. In other words, apostasy[2] remains a genuine possibility in the present age. Forgiveness of sins, reconciliation to God, moral transformation, and eternal life (in short, all the benefits of salvation) are to be found only in Jesus Christ. If this faith-union should be broken and one found no longer remaining in Christ, he or she has cut him-/herself off from the only source and hope of salvation. Salvation in the age to come is assured to those who press on and persevere to the end. God will not falter, but our faith may.

                Notes
                1. Whether human freedom is conceived in terms of natural ability or restored by divine grace is a moot point.
                2. I.e. defection from Christ, defection from the faith.
                Last edited by The Remonstrant; 12-18-2015, 01:46 AM.
                For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by theophilus View Post
                  No genuine Christian can become an apostate.
                  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
                  (1 John 2:19 ESV)
                  You have pointed to what is probably the strongest proof-text adduced in favour of the doctrine of unconditional security (or the impossibility of a ‘genuine believer’ committing apostasy).
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                    You have pointed to what is probably the strongest proof-text adduced in favour of the doctrine of unconditional security (or the impossibility of a ‘genuine believer’ committing apostasy).
                    These were just people who were following the Apostles around who never actually believed. It was not believers that left the faith.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Simple definition: The Elect is the people who is or will be in Heaven--forever. If after Judgment Day, one is still apostate, he should never be counted as of the Elect, no matter he ever was a believer. One more point: I don't think anyone should ever presume to know any given person is or is not of the elect.
                      The greater number of laws . . . , the more thieves . . . there will be. ---- Lao-Tzu

                      [T]he truth I’m after and the truth never harmed anyone. What harms us is to persist in self-deceit and ignorance -— Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        These were just people who were following the Apostles around who never actually believed. It was not believers that left the faith.
                        I am inclined to agree with your basic assessment of 1 John 2:19. For those who may be interested in a good (albeit brief) treatment on this text, see Robert Shank, Life in the Son: A Study of the Doctrine of Perseverance, 2nd rev. and exp. ed. (Minneapolis, MN: Bethany House, 1989), pp. 361–62.
                        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                        Comment

                        widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                        Working...
                        X