Is Baptism part of the gospel?

[tabibito]

Spin off thread from What are the essentials of the genuine Christian faith?

Rising from the water of baptism is re-birth, and with the capacity to completely overcome sin. However, that is like saying that a new-born baby is born with the capacity (all being well) to run in a hurdle race (even if he can't really compete). The capacity is certainly present, but the actualised ability takes time to manifest.


A number of passages show that it happens perhaps long after the initial commitment to Christ, but certainly prior to death.

There are many problems with that interpretation/application of Romans 7. However, a contrast is stated between the "I" who can not overcome the dictates of sin and being thereby thrown into self conflict, and the "you" and "we" who have overcome this conflict in chapters 6 and 8. What can be said even if Paul was referring to himself in chapter 7? In the eleven years that followed the writing of the letter until his death, did he make no advancement?

Sanctification is being set apart for particular purpose - in this case, holy purpose. It comes with belief and repentance. That is what makes it possible on rare occasion that a person can be baptised into the Holy Spirit even before he is baptised in water. However, this is a matter of cleansing - purification is a further step. In terms of an analogy, it is equivalent to washing the hands with soap and water (cleansing) and afterward rubbing the hands with anti bacterial solution (purification) - a process familiar to many who work in sensitive areas.

Hmm... Not in my Bible.

Romans 6:3-6

₃ Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? ₄ Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ₅ For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, ₆ knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin

That is, of course, not the limit of the passages making the same kind of statement - but it is the most relevant to the current topic.

I agree that Romans 6:3-6 refers to water baptism [immersion]. But I do not see that passage is teaching that water baptism which is done into Christ's death, and coming out of the water to signify that we should walk in the new life makes the act the new birth. The Israelites walking through the mist crossing the Red Sea were baptized into Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). And the Apostle Paul was not commanded to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17), indicating baptism is not part of the gospel though it does in fact accompany the gospel. Further more Paul mocks those who baptize into Christ's death and did not believe in the general resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29-31, 12-21).

[tabibito]

I agree that Romans 6:3-6 refers to water baptism [immersion].

But I do not see that passage is teaching that water baptism which is done into Christ's death, and coming out of the water to signify that we should walk in the new life makes the act the new birth.

I'm reasonably confident the the new life referred to here is from above - signifying both divine intervention, and a renewal "from top" (to bottom).

The Israelites walking through the mist crossing the Red Sea were baptized into Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2).

The cloud would be the cloud that went before them by day, but yes, the passage does draw a parallel between baptism into Moses and Baptism into Christ.

And the Apostle Paul was not commanded to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17), indicating baptism is not part of the gospel though it does in fact accompany the gospel. Further more Paul mocks those who baptize into Christ's death and did not believe in the general resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29-31, 12-21).

And to the point of whether baptism into Christ is part of the gospel.

Perhaps it would be in order to conduct a quick rundown of precisely what the scriptures record concerning baptism.

Re: Baptism - Session 1

seidousoushi site

[KingsGambit]

I find it telling that the first question the Ethiopian eunuch asked upon being convinced of the gospel involved baptism.

[37818]

I'm reasonably confident the the new life referred to here is from above - signifying both divine intervention, and a renewal "from top" (to bottom).

Without question, God does the new birth.

The cloud would be the cloud that went before them by day, but yes, the passage does draw a parallel between baptism into Moses and Baptism into Christ['s death].

Bracketed added by me.

And the Apostle Paul was not commanded to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17), indicating baptism is not part of the gospel though it does in fact accompany the gospel. Further more Paul mocks those who baptize into Christ's death and did not believe in the general resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29-31, 12-21).

And to the point of whether baptism into Christ is part of the gospel.

". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17

Perhaps it would be in order to conduct a quick rundown of precisely what the scriptures record concerning baptism.

Re: Baptism - Session 1

seidousoushi site

". . . Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ into the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. . . ." -- Acts 2:38

Without question Peter gave that instruction. But the baptism was not the requirement.

". . . To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all them which heard the word. . . ." -- Acts 10:43-44

And following this.

. . . Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Spirit as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. . . . " -- Acts 10:47-48

You see baptism was never the essential even though baptism was commanded.

1. Is water necessary for baptism?

Yes.

2. If a person has already received the Holy Spirit, is baptism into the name of the Lord unnecessary?

No.

". . . He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. . . ." -- Mark 16:16

No.
Yes.

3. To be saved, what is required?

Believing.
No.

" . . . while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us . . . " -- 1 Peter 3:20-21

Noah and his family was saved from the world that was by the flood (2 Peter 3:6). As an anti-type water baptism saves us by "- not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, - by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." For as Paul wrote the Roman church, ". . . so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6:4.) Indicating we are no longer going to live for this world.

Note also, Noah and his family were in the ark which can be regarded as a type of Christ. If they were not in the ark the flood would not have saved them from the world that was. So in like manner if a person is not in Christ they will perish (1 John 5:12; John 15:6).

1. What does the water now do?

Save us. [see above]

2. How is this achieved?

". . . not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God. . . ." [see above]

. . . Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: . . . " -- Matthew 28:19-20

1. Does Jesus command that baptism be conducted?

Yes.

2. Is baptism included in that things that Jesus requires the apostles to teach people to observe?

Yes.
Means "to do."

". . . And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. . . ." -- Acts 22:16

Ananias instructs Saul to do three things], arise, be baptized and wash away his sins calling upon the name of the Lord (see 1 John 1:9-2:2).
Yes.

[Cow Poke]

I find it telling that the first question the Ethiopian eunuch asked upon being convinced of the gospel involved baptism.

yeah

[tabibito]

I find it telling that the first question the Ethiopian eunuch asked upon being convinced of the gospel involved baptism.

Quite so. It is difficult to explain how a person who knew nothing of Christianity prior to the meeting with Philip should have known to ask for baptism subsequent to preaching of the gospel if baptism wasn't part of that preaching.

[37818]

Quite so. It is difficult to explain how a person who knew nothing of Christianity prior to the meeting with Philip should have known to ask for baptism subsequent to preaching of the gospel if baptism wasn't part of that preaching.

". . . Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on [their] way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, [here is] water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? . . ."-- Acts 8:35-36

No one is claiming that the instruction of baptism was not taught with the gospel (see Acts 19:1-4).

[tabibito]

37818; Post #4
And the Apostle Paul was not commanded to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17), indicating baptism is not part of the gospel though it does in fact accompany the gospel. Furthermore Paul mocks those who baptize into Christ's death and did not believe in the general resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29-31, 12-21).
And to the point of whether baptism into Christ is part of the gospel.

37818 Post #7
No one is claiming that the instruction of baptism was not taught with the gospel (see Acts 19:1-4).

Is baptism an optional extra, something that can be included in the preaching of Christ if the preacher feels like it, or is it an essential part of the teachings concerning Christianity?

Hebrews 5:14-6

₁₄ But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil _6:1Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, ₂ of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

In the ordinary course, I won't use that passage to demonstrate the necessity of preaching baptism during evangelism, for simple cause that the Koine Greek doesn't say "baptisms", but "washings". However, given that you have interpreted the English translation of "αναστας・having/being arisen" as a command, I'm sure you'll have no problem accepting the translation of "βαπτισμων・washings" as "baptisms."

". . . And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. . . ." -- Acts 22:16
Ananias instructs Saul to do three things], arise, be baptized and wash away his sins calling upon the name of the Lord (see 1 John 1:9-2:2).

". . . He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. . . ." -- Mark 16:16

According to Mark 16:16, is the time of condemnation set for future, present, or past?

3. To be saved, what is required?
Believing.

According to Mark 16:16 - to be saved, what is required ?

[tabibito]

And the Apostle Paul was not commanded to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17), indicating baptism is not part of the gospel though it does in fact accompany the gospel.

Furthermore Paul mocks those who baptize into Christ's death and did not believe in the general resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:29-31, 12-21).
And to the point of whether baptism into Christ is part of the gospel.

". . . For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: . . ." -- 1 Corinthians 1:17

A shop assistant's job is not to sell things, but to serve customers. It is reasonable to assume that the shop assistant's sale of items is an optional extra??

[apostoli]

Quite so. It is difficult to explain how a person who knew nothing of Christianity prior to the meeting with Philip should have known to ask for baptism subsequent to preaching of the gospel if baptism wasn't part of that preaching.

[tabibito]

True! However, baptism was a common practice by various groups in the region at the time. Nothing unusual about the Ethiopian emissary seeking to be baptised per se. But did he understand the difference between a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins and the baptism into Jesus' death & resurrection? (cp. Mk 1:4-5) In anycase, we are left guessing whether the Ethiopian received the Holy Spirit or not.

I find Acts 18:24-25 of interest: "...a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John..."

With only John's baptism Apollos and others were fearless in preaching Christ.

It would seem so. It is also possible that their number may have included people who had never been numbered among the direct disciples of Christ.

Mark 9:38-39

_{38 39}

Not required - it simply records that particular sequence on this occasion. Other passages lead to the conclusion that it is the preferred/standard sequence.
I take it that the Bible records instances where God chooses to ignore the standard procedure.

From Acts 8:15-17 we learn that even if someone is baptised in the name of Jesus, they don't necessarily receive the Holy Spirit. The laying on of hands by an apostle is required.

The Holy Spirit is received through the laying on of hands by an apostle, certainly. But nothing in this verse, even taken as stand alone, would preclude other means of bestowing the Holy Spirit, as you have noted below:

From Acts 10:44 we learn that one can receive the Holy Spirit without having been baptised in any form, or having hands laid upon them by an apostle.

Yup. All up, I take it that we have a basic set of procedures to follow: preaching the gospel - repentance, and confession of Christ as Lord - Baptism into the name of Christ - Baptism in (receiving) the Holy Spirit. However, the set procedures can be subject to alteration, as it were, without notice. The factor in all this that I find the most intriguiing is the contrast between John's baptism and baptism into the name of Christ. The first being a baptism of repentance, the second, a baptism of remission - but procedurally not different.

[37818]

Is baptism an optional extra, something that can be included in the preaching of Christ if the preacher feels like it, or is it an essential part of the teachings concerning Christianity?

Baptism is a work of the Christian faith instructed to be done. Baptism is not any kind of requirement in order to be saved. Not being baptised [immersed] will not cause one to perish.

Hebrews 5:14-6

₁₄ But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil _6:1Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, ₂ of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

In the ordinary course, I won't use that passage to demonstrate the necessity of preaching baptism during evangelism, for simple cause that the Koine Greek doesn't say "baptisms", but "washings". However, given that you have interpreted the English translation of "αναστας・having/being arisen" as a command, I'm sure you'll have no problem accepting the translation of "βαπτισμων・washings" as "baptisms."

There are the teachings of baptisms (Matthew 3:10-12), water, the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:8) and the fire (Revelation 20:15).

". . . He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. . . ." -- Mark 16:16

According to Mark 16:16, is the time of condemnation set for future, present, or past?

yes, it is spoken in a future tense. (see John 3:18; Romans 3:23.)

According to Mark 16:16 - to be saved, what is required ?

Believing.

[One Bad Pig]

Is baptism an optional extra, something that can be included in the preaching of Christ if the preacher feels like it, or is it an essential part of the teachings concerning Christianity?

Hebrews 5:14-6

₁₄ But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil _6:1Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, ₂ of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment

In the ordinary course, I won't use that passage to demonstrate the necessity of preaching baptism during evangelism, for simple cause that the Koine Greek doesn't say "baptisms", but "washings". However, given that you have interpreted the English translation of "αναστας・having/being arisen" as a command, I'm sure you'll have no problem accepting the translation of "βαπτισμων・washings" as "baptisms."

I don't know a whole lot of Greek, but "βαπτισμων" looks a whole lot like "baptisms" to me - and baptism is the only major Christian "washing" anyway (the context is, after all, talking about the foundation of Christianity).

". . . He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. . . ." -- Mark 16:16

According to Mark 16:16, is the time of condemnation set for future, present, or past?


According to Mark 16:16 - to be saved, what is required ?

As I'm sure you know, Mk. 16:9-20 is not found in the earliest mss, and is regarded by most as not original. On the other hand, it is included in (at least) RCC and Orthodox lectionaries, and can thus be considered a normative belief of the early church.

[One Bad Pig]

According to Mark 16:16 - to be saved, what is required ?

Believing.

Nice dodge.

[tabibito]

I don't know a whole lot of Greek, but "βαπτισμων" looks a whole lot like "baptisms" to me - and baptism is the only major Christian "washing" anyway (the context is, after all, talking about the foundation of Christianity).

It was a technical point, to be sure. I don't use the passage (as valuable as it is) for pointing to baptism simply because it can lead to bogging down in technicalities. Advanced bible studies can use it because the whole "washing" that occurs in baptism gets dealt with: but not base level Bible study.As to βαπτισμων (baptismōn), you are correct in that it is close to baptism - but it is only a related word. The head word for washing is βαπτισμός (baptismōs), and the headword for immersion is βαπτισμα (baptisma) - for the verbs baptizō covers both.

As I'm sure you know, Mk. 16:9-20 is not found in the earliest mss, and is regarded by most as not original. On the other hand, it is included in (at least) RCC and Orthodox lectionaries, and can thus be considered a normative belief of the early church.

The authenticity of Mark 16:9-20 is considered questionable, yes. Missing in the NU, I don't count significant ... the codex Vaticanus is a bit more problematical, but on balance I consider the case for inclusion to be stronger than that for exclusion. But in any event - Acts 19:4-5 and other passages can be pointed to as a matter of demonstrating the truth of Mark 16:16, even if it is not authentic.