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Is Baptism part of the gospel?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Nice dodge.
    Not as good as the one he made for question 1 though.
    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
    .
    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
    Scripture before Tradition:
    but that won't prevent others from
    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
    of the right to call yourself Christian.

    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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    • #17
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Nice dodge.
      How is an explicit truth a dodge? The question was what was required. No where is water baptism required in order to be saved. Now the promise "believe and be baptised shall be saved" is both true and good. Taking the baptism out will not make one to perish.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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      • #18
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        How is an explicit truth a dodge?
        It is a dodge when it is only half the truth.
        The question was what was required.
        In that verse, "whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved." You can't (legitimately) drop half the requirement and pretend it doesn't exist.
        No where is water baptism required in order to be saved.
        In that verse, it could hardly be more explicit.
        Now the promise "believe and be baptised shall be saved" is both true and good. Taking the baptism out will not make one to perish.
        Deliberate eisegesis, however, just might. Scripture is not silly putty.
        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

        Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
        sigpic
        I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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        • #19
          The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. The end.


          Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. The end.
            Addenda: The thief on the cross had no opportunity to be baptized.

            God is not a legalist, demanding that conditions be met even where impossible. On the other hand, He expects at least some effort to follow His commands.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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            • #21
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Addenda: The thief on the cross had no opportunity to be baptized.

              God is not a legalist, demanding that conditions be met even where impossible. On the other hand, He expects at least some effort to follow His commands.

              True. However, as a Baptist, I believe that baptism is a command, but is not part of the salvation process. Same with communion. We call them ordinances. There is nothing that baptism, or communion do to add to salvation.

              Orthodox and Catholic will have differences of opinions, I am sure.


              Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                True. However, as a Baptist, I believe that baptism is a command, but is not part of the salvation process. Same with communion. We call them ordinances. There is nothing that baptism, or communion do to add to salvation.

                Orthodox and Catholic will have differences of opinions, I am sure.
                I grew up Baptist, so I understand that POV quite well. I understand the extreme aversion to equating any kind of "work" with salvation, but if we don't follow God's ordinances, how can we be saved?
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  I grew up Baptist, so I understand that POV quite well. I understand the extreme aversion to equating any kind of "work" with salvation, but if we don't follow God's ordinances, how can we be saved?
                  I never said that we don't need to do them. They are commands. We are to obey. But they don't have any part in salvation. And now we will go round and round on the same thing for a while.



                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                    Yup. All up, I take it that we have a basic set of procedures to follow: preaching the gospel - repentance, and confession of Christ as Lord - Baptism into the name of Christ - Baptism in (receiving) the Holy Spirit. However, the set procedures can be subject to alteration, as it were, without notice. The factor in all this that I find the most intriguiing is the contrast between John's baptism and baptism into the name of Christ. The first being a baptism of repentance, the second, a baptism of remission - but procedurally not different.
                    Today, as part of my daily studies, I intended to review every occurrence of "baptis*" in the NT, but I didn't get past Matthew. I observed that until Mt 28:19 only the baptism of John is mentioned. Matthew 28:18-20 associates baptism with the preaching of the kingdom. It made me stop and reflect on what baptism meant to me...

                    Just as an observation: it is my understanding that we are not to be baptised unto Christ alone as Oneness believers (Sabellianists) demand but we are to baptised unto the name of the Father, Son & Spirit. Consider Jesus' prayer at John 17:11: "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one".

                    In my experience: many "christians" view baptism as an initiation into "the club". Thus they align themselves to the politics & dogmatism of "their club" and only parrot the death and resurrection in Christ scenario. I find this particularly true of those groups that insist on adult baptism with full immersion. In contrast the majority Church recognises the practicality of baptism in the light of the circumcision and see it as a dedication (sanctification) unto God the Father, a setting apart from the world, a welcome into the confraternity of heaven, a recognition of our betrothal to the Son of the Father (admittedly a justification for infant baptism, but an idea that eliminates the "club" mentality).

                    Imu, as an adult, through baptism we express our desire to participate in the life of the Father, Son and Spirit - to join in the great dance. The Greeks have a wonderful word for this idea = "the Perichoresis". There is a dance style within the Merengue that requires three or more people, always an odd number. It looks incredibly complicated but participation can be learnt in a few seconds - all it takes is letting go of ego and co-operating with others - unison then follows naturally.
                    _____________________

                    An after thought/s:

                    From my readings of the ancient fathers (which only extends to about the 6th century), it seems that in the early church it was common practice to delay baptism until one was near to death (an assurance that all their sins would be forgiven). I recall few early writers decrying this practice...

                    Also, A.Paul seems to have viewed baptism as not critical to his duties = 1 Cor 1:14-17 "I thank God that I did not baptize any of you...Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." Likewise Jesus = John 4:2 "it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples", and it seems that the disciples baptisms were one of repentance.

                    There was a practice in the early church that most commentators avoid (no one wants to discuss) = 1Co 15:29 "Now if there is no resurrection, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized for them?"
                    Last edited by apostoli; 09-21-2015, 08:58 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                      I never said that we don't need to do them. They are commands. We are to obey. But they don't have any part in salvation. And now we will go round and round on the same thing for a while.
                      Nah. I don't feel the need to point out the logical absurdity in your position more than once. I just wanted to make sure you knew I knew where you were coming from.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                        I never said that we don't need to do them. They are commands. We are to obey. But they don't have any part in salvation. And now we will go round and round on the same thing for a while.
                        I'm RCC and only have a vague knowledge of baptist teaching, but I understood that Baptists prohibit full participation in your church unless you are baptised eg: you can't become a deacon or pastor.

                        Also, given Baptists reject infant baptism it would be necessary to reject baptism as integral to salvation. Tough, imu, Baptists see a child's salvation as an extension of a baptised parent (?)

                        I am confused by Baptists if they hold that adult salvation is not dependent on adult baptism, which I take to be a symbol of repentance and self-renunciation to the will of God ie: a kenosis cp. Phil 2:5,7. What do baptists see as the point of baptism?
                        Last edited by apostoli; 09-21-2015, 10:35 PM.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by apostoli View Post
                          I'm RCC and only have a vague knowledge of baptist teaching, but I understood that Baptists prohibit full participation in your church unless you are baptised eg: you can't become a deacon or pastor.
                          To put it simply:
                          Salvation is the door to Heaven.
                          Baptism is the door to the Church.

                          Most of us Baptists believe you can go to Heaven without Baptism, but you are "Baptized into the Church".

                          Also, given Baptists reject infant baptism it would be necessary to reject baptism as integral to salvation. Tough, imu, Baptists see a child's salvation as an extension of a baptised parent (?)
                          Hmmmm.... not sure I ever heard it that way. Are you maybe thinking of the age of accountability issue here? We baptize children after they have made a profession of faith, having understood sin and repentance.

                          I am confused by Baptists if they hold that adult salvation is not dependent on adult baptism, which I take to be a symbol of repentance and self-renunciation to the will of God ie: a kenosis cp. Phil 2:5,7. What do baptists see as the point of baptism?
                          Baptism is the act of obedience that indicates one intends to "live in Christ" and walk "in newness of life". It is the public display of one's decision to be part of the body of believers.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            To put it simply:
                            Salvation is the door to Heaven.
                            Baptism is the door to the Church.

                            Most of us Baptists believe you can go to Heaven without Baptism, but you are "Baptized into the Church".
                            Thankyou Cow Poke for your insights, I don't disagree with the sentiment. But if so, it does cause me to question why Baptists reject infant baptism, especially if it is merely an initiation rite.

                            As you maybe aware, until this year the super-nature of baptism was exemplified in the RCC teaching of Limbo (Limbo has officially been abolished, albeit it has never been an official dogma of the church). The RCC puts huge significance on baptism as (in metaphor) the "key to heaven", it is what seals us under the protection of salvation.

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Hmmmm.... not sure I ever heard it that way.
                            My apologies, I have a sticky keyboard and missed the typo. The text should have read "...given Baptists reject infant baptism it would be necessary to reject baptism as integral to salvation. Though, imu, Baptists see a child's salvation as an extension of a baptised parent (?) "

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Are you maybe thinking of the age of accountability issue here?
                            No. I was thinking about the status of the unbaptised child.

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            We baptize children after they have made a profession of faith, having understood sin and repentance.
                            In the RCC that might equate to our confirmation which occurs after a lengthy period of studying the catechism - usually around the age of 12. Imu, the Eastern Orthodox perform the anointing and confirmation at the time of baptism of an infant. In my experience: in the RCC such a baptism/confirmation combination is only allowed for adults.

                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Baptism is the act of obedience that indicates one intends to "live in Christ" and walk "in newness of life". It is the public display of one's decision to be part of the body of believers.
                            In the RCC that idea would be compatible with our understanding of adult baptism. However...

                            In the RCC we put a different slant on this when it comes to infant baptism. In my experience, the baptism of the infant is the parents' (and God parents') public declaration that they will bring their child up in the teaching of Christ. A very OT view of dedication of the child and commitment of its parents (compare the purpose of circumcision which baptism has replaced).

                            I'll admit to having a vague knowledge of Baptist argument against infant baptism but until recently I haven't given the dispute much thought, so I especially thank you for your input to my deliberations... Many here would have just fobbed me off...
                            Last edited by apostoli; 09-22-2015, 04:30 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              How is an explicit truth a dodge? The question was what was required. No where is water baptism required in order to be saved. Now the promise "believe and be baptised shall be saved" is both true and good. Taking the baptism out will not make one to perish.
                              If that verse says belief is required, so too it says baptism is required. Baptism in water is not a thing that one must keep doing, it is a one time undertaking. Belief, by contrast, is something that one must continue to exhibit.

                              (and believing is also a work.)
                              Last edited by tabibito; 09-22-2015, 06:50 AM.
                              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                              .
                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                              Scripture before Tradition:
                              but that won't prevent others from
                              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                              of the right to call yourself Christian.

                              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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                              • #30
                                1 Peter 3:20b-21a (TBM Version: Provisional)
                                ... κιβωτου, εις ην ολίγαι, τουτ’ εστιν οκτω ψυχαι, διεσωθησαν δι υδατος ο αντιτυπον νυν και ημας σωζει βαπτισμα...
                                ... the ark in which a few, that is, eight, souls were saved through the water that now with antitypal baptism saves us ...
                                According to this verse:
                                1. What does the water now do?
                                2. How is this achieved?

                                So - if baptism is not necessary to salvation - what water is referred to here? and what is the antitypal baptism?

                                What about the thief on the cross?

                                Of course, it would be entirely possible to hand wave away the story of the thief on the cross - it is after all a Lukan comma, and its authenticity is highly questionable. That is the usual procedure when Mark 16:9-20 is mentioned as any sort of evidence for given precepts. However, it is in the Bible, and should be taken seriously.

                                Until the resurrection, the New Covenant was not enacted (at the earliest). Christ told the thief that he would see him in Paradise before Christ had even died. The Old Covenant was still in force - and under the old Covenant - if a person turned from his wicked way to do righteousness ... that person's sins would be remembered no more and he would live.
                                The thief had done the only act of righteousness available to him - acknowledging that Jesus was indeed the Christ.
                                Last edited by tabibito; 09-22-2015, 06:48 AM.
                                1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                                .
                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                                Scripture before Tradition:
                                but that won't prevent others from
                                taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                                of the right to call yourself Christian.

                                ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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