What to do with the world...what to do...

[apostoli]

I made no reference to politics ― American or otherwise. I was only referring to your bitter attitude.

I'm not bitter about anything. But I am distressed each time I turn on the evening news...

John, with your computer resources and expertise, investigate your national history. Investigate the indisputable fact of the number of your countrymen that answered the call of Nazi Germany to return to their homeland. Investigate the Texas defense of those trialed at Nuremburg...investigate the trail of tears and Jefferson's policies...

The new Rome in the last century has become very influential, so it is almost impossible to separate politics and religion in our discussions, especially when your currency demands "in God we trust", and then we watch the evening news and conclude that such is contradictory to actual practice.

If you are a capital "C" Christian you should share my distaste for the historical inhumanity exhibited by supposed "christians", irrespective of where they are domiciled.

What you seem to have missed in my last response to you, is that in my experience people are closing their ears to the message of Christianity...and I'd suggest such a situation is not a result of obstinacy but of example...

[apostoli]

Your profile says you're from Australia. Before you resume extracting planks from the eyes of every American here, you may want to reflect on your own nation's poor treatment of the Aborigines.

Nice try...

The difference between Oz and the USA's treatment of native peoples can be summed up in a few words "theft of their land and genocide were not government policy in Oz". In fact, under British law (which Oz was subject to until the 1960s) Oz governments were obligated to take a paternal approach to the native peoples. This is the cause of current dispute in Oz. Billions of dollars are spent on Aborigine services each year to little or no effect.

One must know and remember that until 1901, Australia didn't exist per se. The continent consisted of six independent, self governing nations (British colonies). So there was diversity in experience. For instance in South Australia women and native peoples had the right to vote in the 19th century. Native peoples lost that right on federation (they were considered wards of the state).

Australian history is very scant on Aborigine wars, for the simple reason we had none! Nor did we have civil wars, nor a need for a war of independence. Possibly why we term ourselves the lucky country. Nor have we been subject to such excesses of the extreme religious right such as the KKK.

We also didn't have a governmental policy of genocide or theft of native land. I was recently reading an article on your Thomas Jefferson and his approach to expansionism, most enlightening into the mindset of the era.

The native Australians are not tribal, and were simple hunter/gatherers. Consequently, they were unable to organise (still can't). They weren't even able to fend off a small community of settlers (convicts) at Sydney cove. Their biggest gripe at the time was the theft of their women.

Sure, in the past there were injustices carried out by settlers, but unlike other places in the world, there was never a government policy to exterminate them. The issue here was between settlers and the natives. The settlers saw the natives as a feral pest. The natives had a habit of killing livestock, chopping off the haunches and leaving 90% of the animal to rot.

There is a group here in Sydney, still in existence, that was successful in fending off the British and the settlers, ultimately there has been a perpetual truce. The dominant player at the time was a guy named John Macarthur. Legend has it he sat down with the natives and negotiated a settlement. The natives stopped killing his sheep willy nilly and from then on everyone was happy.

If you are interested I'll discuss the Queensland, Tasmanian & WA's histories. None of which are very interesting, but had events that are often raised.

Interestingly, at least for me, there is a high probability that I am an Australian aborigine (my mother, brother & sister certainly look the part). As an infant my mother was "farmed out" in the 1920s...

[apostoli]

Possibly! Or else you have had your head stuck somewhere that has prohibited you from viewing the world in its reality.

Why would I? Documented history speaks for itself! Considering documented history , you should have left out Baptists in your list...

Several years ago I had an afro-american fellow try to prove to me that all american slave owners were Jewish. I asked him about Jefferson and Washington, I am still waiting for a reply...

Maybe! But let me ask you a simple question. As a supposed Christian: how does same sex marriage impact you personally? What impact does it have on your daily "christian" life? Does it change the price of your hamburger?

The Civil War was absolutely about slavery.

Not according to the historians. Lincoln is documented as willing to cave into the southern states to avoid war.

http://www.civilwar.org/education/hi...nofcauses.html

And all these "christian" states still have major race relation problems.

what?

and as a supposed "christian" what is your opinion of "states rights" verses "human rights"?


Possibly not "legal" but common practice. I was remiss in not including Mormons. We shouldn't forget the Missouri massacres conducted by the "christian" religious right.


In simple terms, don't preach unless you practice...

___________________________

ps: I think you and your Agonistae/Circumcellion type fellows have missed my point. America has become the "Christian" example to the world. And unfortunately, the world has rejected your example. How do we fix this perspective?

[Zeta_Metroid]

Documented history speaks for itself!

Considering documented history , you should have left out Baptists in your list

Maybe!

No. No one else but you with your bizarre, bitter ax to grind would have interpreted what I said as potential support for slavery.

As a supposed Christian: how does same sex marriage impact you personally?

The specific practice has little effect, but the cultural acceptance of homosexuality legitimizes something that harms the lives of people I know.

Not according to the historians.

hereherehere

Lincoln is documented as willing to cave into the southern states to avoid war.

what?

And all these "christian" states still have major race relation problems.

and as a supposed "christian" what is your opinion of "states rights" verses "human rights"?

Possibly not "legal" but common practice.

America has become the "Christian" example to the world. And unfortunately, the world has rejected your example.

As opposed to ancient Christians who the world just loved right?

[apostoli]

I made no such claim. You have simply accused yourself!!!

Read the news reports of the 1960s & 1970s. In fact, watch your nightly TV reports. Nothing much hs changed in "christian" america in the last 60 or so years.

No. No one else but you with your bizarre, bitter ax to grind would have interpreted what I said as potential support for slavery.

Do you have an political adversion to same sex marriage?

The specific practice has little effect, but the cultural acceptance of homosexuality legitimizes something that harms the lives of people Iknow.

How so, I've known committed christians that have been in homosexual relations for in excess of 20 years.

hereherehere

Digress all you want. Look at the after effects of your supposed "justifiable" wars... Lets start with the constitutional challenge against inter-marriage...

[Zeta_Metroid]

I made no such claim.

Read the news reports of the 1960s & 1970s. In fact, watch your nightly TV reports.

Can you show me some specific examples that you feel support your point?

Nothing much hs changed in "christian" america in the last 60 or so years.

here.

For more, see this article: http://journalistsresource.org/studi...-social-survey, which has a slew of data showing consistent positive change.

Do you have an political adversion to same sex marriage?

How so, I've known committed christians that have been in homosexual relations for in excess of 20 years.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2906147/http://pages.ucsd.edu/~nchristenfeld...ite%202001.pdfhttp://i.imgur.com/KxcUMOt.png, according to the book The Male Couple (written by two homosexual psychologists who were themselves a male couple - so as unbiased a source as could possibly exist), in their study, "all [homosexual] couples with a relationship lasting more than five years have incorporated some provision for outside sexual activity in their relationships".

And according to here: http://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/F...of_HIV.10.aspx, even among homosexuals in relationships, their number of outside sexual partners stays very high. In their study "Men with and without a steady partner had [an average of] eight and 22 casual contacts per year, respectively".

And according to the paper "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men", among older homosexuals it was reported that just "2.7% had had sex with 1 partner only". This can be seen here: http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...&as_sdt=0%2C47http://kyb.mpg.de/fileadmin/user_upl...ve_%5B0%5D.pdfhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2387250/

Digress all you want.

How is this a digression? Slavery has been one of the main topics of our discussion so far.

Look at the after effects of your supposed "justifiable" wars... Lets start with the constitutional challenge against inter-marriage...

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm sure you're glad Samus Aran isn't around, but you'll find that apostoli hates America and American's in general. I dealt with him a few years ago over this sort of nonsense and it seems it went in one ear and out the other. Yes he loves revisionist history and he hates America and Americans too, so don't bother to discuss anything with him to change his mind because you will not.

[Zeta_Metroid]

I'm sure you're glad Samus Aran isn't around, but you'll find that apostoli hates America and American's in general. I dealt with him a few years ago over this sort of nonsense and it seems it went in one ear and out the other. Yes he loves revisionist history and he hates America and Americans too, so don't bother to discuss anything with him to change his mind because you will not.

Ah thanks for the warning - its ironic that he's using racism to justify what amounts to racism of his own

And I am glad she's not since if Samus Aran were around he'd probably be telling her "historians will tell you that the Aether War had NOTHING to do with Phazon, it was all about dimension's rights"

[Cow Poke]

Ah thanks for the warning - its ironic that he's using racism to justify what amounts to racism of his own

I see this so often....

Me: I think Obama's foreign policy stinks out loud
Response: You hate blacks.

[lilpixieofterror]

Ah thanks for the warning - its ironic that he's using racism to justify what amounts to racism of his own

Pretty much. Hating somebody based upon their country of origin is just as bad as hating somebody based upon their race, color of their skin, etc. Plus, his knowledge of American history is lacking (ironic, considering that he attacks Americans for not knowing our history). Just a few problems:

1. The civil war might of had state rights as part of the issue, but slavery was the major issue of the war.
2. Plenty of abolitionist where white and Christians. In fact, many stops along the underground railroad were at church's and major religious figures in both the North and the South.
3. Anti slavery movements started up North. Our second president (John Adams) was a major anti slavery advocate (he once talked about how he never hired slaves to do any labor around his house and always chose free men, even though they cost more) and he was also a religious man too.
4. The Republican party, was founded as the anti slavery party.

It isn't that hard to figure out that American's were not united in their views of slavery in the least bit. Even a quick glance of the history of America should dispel the myth that all white Christians were slave owners. The facts do not support such nonsense.

And I am glad she's not since if Samus Aran were around he'd probably be telling her "historians will tell you that the Aether War had NOTHING to do with Phazon, it was all about dimensions' rights"

Most likely. Don't worry, as long as you don't start sucking energy out of people, I will not tell her where you're at.

[Cerebrum123]

I'm sure you're glad Samus Aran isn't around, but you'll find that apostoli hates America and American's in general. I dealt with him a few years ago over this sort of nonsense and it seems it went in one ear and out the other. Yes he loves revisionist history and he hates America and Americans too, so don't bother to discuss anything with him to change his mind because you will not.

She's part metroid now, so they probably wouldn't fight as much.