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So...what we think of as Radical Islam is really just normal?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
    Darn. I thought that would make it easier for people to read/understand.
    Normal people, yes.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Normal people, yes.
      Oh. Well to make it easier, half of the countries with the highest percentage of Muslims have invoked full Sharia Law.

      Of the remaining 5, two of the countries do not apply Sharia Law.

      Two apply Sharia Law on a personal basis: In Jordan, there are both civil courts and Sharia courts. The Sharia courts only apply when both parties are Muslim, or where, if one party is not Muslim, both parties agree to a Sharia court. In Morocco, "Morocco adopted a new constitution in 2011; Article 41 of this constitution granted sole power to the Superior Council of the Ulemas to guide its laws through Fatwas from principles, precepts and designs of Islam."

      There's no data on Western Sahara, but since it was administered (still is administered?) by Morocco, I'm assuming the same regulations apply to them as it does Morocco.

      So, if we're going by the percentage of Muslims in a country, the Imam's point may apply generally, but I think there's enough difference between heavily Islamic nations that it's not 100% clear cut.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Oh. Well to make it easier, half of the countries with the highest percentage of Muslims have invoked full Sharia Law.

        Of the remaining 5, two of the countries do not apply Sharia Law.

        Two apply Sharia Law on a personal basis: In Jordan, there are both civil courts and Sharia courts. The Sharia courts only apply when both parties are Muslim, or where, if one party is not Muslim, both parties agree to a Sharia court. In Morocco, "Morocco adopted a new constitution in 2011; Article 41 of this constitution granted sole power to the Superior Council of the Ulemas to guide its laws through Fatwas from principles, precepts and designs of Islam."

        There's no data on Western Sahara, but since it was administered (still is administered?) by Morocco, I'm assuming the same regulations apply to them as it does Morocco.

        So, if we're going by the percentage of Muslims in a country, the Imam's point may apply generally, but I think there's enough difference between heavily Islamic nations that it's not 100% clear cut.
        Thanks - that helps.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Colors!
          Jake has better color vision than you do


          Just for you:

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            In some conversations---particularly those conversations that have elements of scapegoating---I find it useful to point out that all human beings have the potential for great achievements and grave flaws...this helps the conversation begin on more neutral ground which is more beneficial....

            How does "Law" become "legitimate"?
            In pre-modern times---a degree of divine sanction made "laws" legitimate.
            Modernity brought with it a different paradigm--Human reason was considered supreme and under the presumption of "Universality" their imposition was sanctioned.
            ....So "traditional" systems of justice were destroyed in order to make way for an alleged "Universal" paradigm....In this system a nation-state has only one law---generated by the state and imposed on the citizens. It is legitimate because it is enforced. This aspect of Modernity does not change regardless of what the label of the law might be---so French law, British law, Sharia law---all operate in this paradigm.

            "Modernity" was not the paradigm in which Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) arose. Rather religious freedom/plurality as promoted in pre-Islamic Persian Empire was more likely the dominant paradigm. (see-Cyrus cylinder). Sharia developed in the context of an assumption of legitimacy of all divine laws and so there was a context of "plurality of laws" in any large geographical area held together by an "authority" such as Caliphate, Sultanate, Empire....etc....

            Therefore, to take "Sharia" as the law of a nation-state in the Modern context can be problematic as it (Sharia) was not developed for a mono/singular legal system. This is an aspect that Muslim-majority countries are going to have to grapple with as we become an increasingly global and plural society....

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by siam View Post
              IMO, there are 2 basic features/principles that are pre-requisites in making a "law" just...
              1) Equality (All humanity is of equivalent worth--without this principle, injustice will prevail))
              2) Compassion and Mercy (Any system of human organization/rules without the principles of compassion and mercy will lead to oppression)

              Law should secure benefits for humanity and remove harm through a system that promotes an ethical/moral society by emphasizing rights and responsibilities of individuals and groups....
              There does not exist one Sharia law. So effectively it is not an equality, and effectively anyone can be found in violation of it in one place or another. It eveywhere consists of interpretations. So how does it not stand against truth, justice and liberty?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by siam View Post
                IMO, there are 2 basic features/principles that are pre-requisites in making a "law" just...
                1) Equality (All humanity is of equivalent worth--without this principle, injustice will prevail))
                2) Compassion and Mercy (Any system of human organization/rules without the principles of compassion and mercy will lead to oppression)

                Law should secure benefits for humanity and remove harm through a system that promotes an ethical/moral society by emphasizing rights and responsibilities of individuals and groups....
                What the laws 'should do' is an important issue in contemporary Islam. It is very apparent that Sharia Law fails to do this in the contemporary world. One of the problems is that Shiria Law is not consistent, and is heavily dependent on later variable interpretation, and not really consistently based on the Koran itself.

                The actual matter of fact evidence indicates that contemporary secular law in the west is superior than the application of Shiria Law in the Islamic world, despite weaknesses and faults in western secular law. The superior system of principles and spiritual laws are in the Baha'i Revelation, which were adopted by the United Nations, and the Humanist Manifesto by the humanists. Many aspects of Baha'i Spiritual Law are now adopted into Western secular law, and they are the standard for the contemporary modern world.

                Your accusations of some vague biased 'modernity' in the west lacks objectivity of the reality of the nature of western culture society and law. Emphasizing the problems of the West and failing to acknowledge the severe problems in Islam remains a consistent problem in your posts.

                Some aspects of the Baha'i spiritual laws that have been incorporated into Western secular law are: (1) The absolute forbidding of all forms of slavery and indentured servitude. (2) The mandatory universal education of all children inclusive of boys and girls. (3) Equal social and legal rights for women. (4) The spiritual law prohibiting 'rape' and its consistent application in society. In Islam laws prohibiting rape have failed miserably if the exist at all.
                Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-28-2015, 07:55 AM.
                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                Frank

                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  There does not exist one Sharia law. So effectively it is not an equality, and effectively anyone can be found in violation of it in one place or another. It eveywhere consists of interpretations. So how does it not stand against truth, justice and liberty?
                  Plurality of laws---this is true of modern secular laws---for example, the laws of Canada are different from those of Mexico....etc....


                  Equality---Generally, today, when we speak of "equality" it is based on equality of opportunity --- for example---all children should have an equal access to the same quality of education...this is because our understanding of equality is based on "rights".
                  In the Islamic paradigm--Equality is understood as equivalent inherent human worth---as such human beings have both responsibilities and rights. For example---though all human beings are "equal" some have more knowledge than others---this entails a responsibility to share that knowledge with others who have a right to access that knowledge. Thus one of the functions (Maqasid al Sharia) is the "protection of intellect" (aql) and this can mean the process of acquisition, supply and dissemination of knowledge and the responsibilities and rights of the various parties involved.....

                  So, it is not enough to enact laws that require all school-age children to go to school---laws must protect the whole process of knowledge from research institutes to libraries to schools and universities as well as the publishing industry and its rights and responsibilities.....The goal or purpose of this legislation would be the well being of humanity and all of God's creations---and Justice would require an ethical and fair means of achieving this objective....

                  To be ethical and fair can mean to be independent of the dynamics and structures of power and privilege as these may tend to corrupt the process. Thus, "law" if understood this way---cannot be in the hands of the few who are privileged and powerful---but must protect the many who are not....therefore--essentially, it must be a system that balances the power structures of society---not colludes with it....

                  Voluntary assent to law---In order that law is a fair, just and ethical system---it cannot be forcibly imposed onto a group of people---rather, people must give voluntary assent to be governed by such a law. Since different groups of people have different ethical/moral standards, beliefs, traditions/customs...etc Imposing by force, one single system on all peoples can be unjust and oppressive.....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                    What the laws 'should do' is an important issue in contemporary Islam. It is very apparent that Sharia Law fails to do this in the contemporary world. One of the problems is that Shiria Law is not consistent, and is heavily dependent on later variable interpretation, and not really consistently based on the Koran itself.
                    Quran---I agree, but then the Quran is not really a book of law---it does contain some specific examples of law/legislation but it is more a guide to Ethico-Moral principles upon which society/humanity must be based....The central theme(main principle) upon which all the other ethico-moral principles are based is Tawheed (Unity/One God). Thus the concept of equality is based on the understanding that all humanity is created by God as inherently equal in value---thus it is not some arbitrary principle thought of on a whim---rather this concept of equality is one in which all other understanding is based. Because we are inherently equal---any blessings that God has given us---is a responsibility. Wealth, health, strength, intellect, spirituality...etc....are all responsibilities that we as God's trustees (Khalifa) must discharge faithfully for the benefit of all of God's creations---including humanity.....

                    Sharia---or rather Fiqh---has never been a perfect system---but then, all human endeavors have some flaws---it is not the flaws themselves---rather the striving/struggle for betterment (Jihad) that is important. Each generation is different from the one that came before---so our human struggle (Jihad) is not likely to reach perfection---as what might be best for one generation---may not fit the needs of another future generation.....
                    ....That is why, it is the paradigm on which an ethico-moral structure is based that is important and not the specifics of the legislation itself.....
                    Last edited by siam; 09-28-2015, 11:25 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      "It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."
                      ---Thomas Paine

                      Protection of Deen---"Deen" is often translated as religion---but it can also be interpreted as conscience or "way of life". Freedom cannot be "true" without this fundamental understanding that we need to freely and voluntarily give assent to our conscience/way of life. Integrity of character would require that we live by the principles we believe in....

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by siam View Post
                        Plurality of laws---this is true of modern secular laws---for example, the laws of Canada are different from those of Mexico....etc....
                        It is true that the Laws of different countries vary, but they are consistently similar, and becoming more similar with time. The laws and the application of Shiria, and the secular laws in the Islamic countries lack consistency and similarity.


                        Equality---Generally, today, when we speak of "equality" it is based on equality of opportunity --- for example---all children should have an equal access to the same quality of education...this is because our understanding of equality is based on "rights".
                        True, in reality in the West the equality of opportunity of education for all boys and girls is for the most part a reality. This is not so in the Islamic world.

                        In the Islamic paradigm--Equality is understood as equivalent inherent human worth---as such human beings have both responsibilities and rights. For example---though all human beings are "equal" some have more knowledge than others---this entails a responsibility to share that knowledge with others who have a right to access that knowledge. Thus one of the functions (Maqasid al Sharia) is the "protection of intellect" (aql) and this can mean the process of acquisition, supply and dissemination of knowledge and the responsibilities and rights of the various parties involved...
                        This is too idealistic in the reality of the Islamic world nor the West.

                        So, it is not enough to enact laws that require all school-age children to go to school---laws must protect the whole process of knowledge from research institutes to libraries to schools and universities as well as the publishing industry and its rights and responsibilities.....The goal or purpose of this legislation would be the well being of humanity and all of God's creations---and Justice would require an ethical and fair means of achieving this objective...
                        True, than what?


                        To be ethical and fair can mean to be independent of the dynamics and structures of power and privilege as these may tend to corrupt the process. Thus, "law" if understood this way---cannot be in the hands of the few who are privileged and powerful---but must protect the many who are not....therefore--essentially, it must be a system that balances the power structures of society---not colludes with it....
                        This comes closest in fallible human Republic and Federal Democracies in the West. Beyond this it is too idealistic a goal.

                        Voluntary assent to law---In order that law is a fair, just and ethical system---it cannot be forcibly imposed onto a group of people---rather, people must give voluntary assent to be governed by such a law. Since different groups of people have different ethical/moral standards, beliefs, traditions/customs...etc Imposing by force, one single system on all peoples can be unjust and oppressive.....
                        Shiria Law does not require the voluntary assent to be governed. It comes closest in Democratic governments where laws may be changed by popular assent of the people.
                        Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-29-2015, 12:30 PM.
                        Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                        Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                        But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                        go with the flow the river knows . . .

                        Frank

                        I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                          This is too idealistic in the reality of the Islamic world nor the West.

                          True, than what?
                          If we understand "ideal" as striving for perfection---then it has to have a degree of unachievability---a standard/goal that is high so that we put in maximum effort to strive towards it. The methodology of arriving at law has to be pragmatic(because it has to be implemented in the real world)---but the vision of what the law is---its purpose and goals---can be idealistic.

                          Usul Al Fiqh---(methodology of law)

                          When jurists contemplate on arriving at specific legislation they take" sources" into consideration---some of these are----
                          Quran---the general guide to ethico-moral principles
                          Sunnah---examples of the interpretation and implementation of the ethico-moral principles
                          Ijma---Consensus of the community
                          Qiyas and Ijtihad---Analogical reasoning, creative problem-solving.
                          Al Istislah---Public Interest
                          Al Urf---Traditions/customs of the geographical location/community

                          These considerations (with a couple of exceptions) are not that different from Modern Law practices....

                          The differences in Sharia occur because jurists of various schools give different weight to the various "sources" in their methodology of arriving at law.

                          Modernity has problems---our governments are corrupt---held hostage to the interests of global mega-corporations or the privileged/rich 1%---our social systems neglect the needs of the poor, the underprivileged, the minorities, our economic systems exploit the majority for the benefit of the rich and powerful few and our weak legal systems enable all of it.

                          Maybe we should think outside the box, use Ijtihad to come up with creative solutions for the betterment of all humanity?

                          If we were to bring back ethico-moral considerations into all of our actions---maybe---we can begin to make a difference?....

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            If we understand "ideal" as striving for perfection---then it has to have a degree of unachievability---a standard/goal that is high so that we put in maximum effort to strive towards it. The methodology of arriving at law has to be pragmatic(because it has to be implemented in the real world)---but the vision of what the law is---its purpose and goals---can be idealistic.

                            Usul Al Fiqh---(methodology of law)

                            When jurists contemplate on arriving at specific legislation they take" sources" into consideration---some of these are----
                            Quran---the general guide to ethico-moral principles
                            Sunnah---examples of the interpretation and implementation of the ethico-moral principles
                            Ijma---Consensus of the community
                            Qiyas and Ijtihad---Analogical reasoning, creative problem-solving.
                            Al Istislah---Public Interest
                            Al Urf---Traditions/customs of the geographical location/community
                            Does not address the issue of the failure of Islam in the contemporary world to provide a consistent and just system of law.

                            The differences in Sharia occur because jurists of various schools give different weight to the various "sources" in their methodology of arriving at law.
                            These differences create many problems, and the problems are severe.

                            Modernity has problems---our governments are corrupt---held hostage to the interests of global mega-corporations or the privileged/rich 1%---our social systems neglect the needs of the poor, the underprivileged, the minorities, our economic systems exploit the majority for the benefit of the rich and powerful few and our weak legal systems enable all of it.
                            This too much of a generalization to be of value in evaluating the problem. I still object to your generalization of 'Modernity,' especially since a great deal of the influence from the West on the Islamic world is positive. Of course, the West has its down sides, but this generalization has its down side. In the Islamic world the privileged/rich 1% do most definitely dominate the economies of most Islamic countries, and the others in chaotic violence. This cannot be totally blamed on Western influence.

                            Maybe we should think outside the box, use Ijtihad to come up with creative solutions for the betterment of all humanity?
                            Very well and consider the Baha'i Faith as an option outside the box.

                            If we were to bring back ethico-moral considerations into all of our actions---maybe---we can begin to make a difference?....[/QUOTE]
                            Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-30-2015, 04:03 PM.
                            Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                            Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                            But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                            go with the flow the river knows . . .

                            Frank

                            I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Are there any Bahai conversations among scholars about ethical economics, bio-ethics, social justice and the ethico-moral principles of law, Methods and purpose of Jurisprudence, philosophies of ethical leadership and governance, the care of the environment and resources....etc? These are conversations ongoing within the Islamic scholarly community---though Non-Muslims are also participants and/or audience....

                              The global Muslim community is also showing interest in ethico-moral considerations of their actions and this is reflected in the "halalification" phenomenon where people are increasingly looking for Halal options from music, food, clothes, medicine and health to finance, economics, social issues---etc....

                              Is there a similar trend among Bahai?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by siam View Post
                                Are there any Bahai conversations among scholars about ethical economics, bio-ethics, social justice and the ethico-moral principles of law, Methods and purpose of Jurisprudence, philosophies of ethical leadership and governance, the care of the environment and resources....etc? These are conversations ongoing within the Islamic scholarly community---though Non-Muslims are also participants and/or audience....
                                Simply yes, but I will give it ore thought.

                                Is there a similar trend among Bahai?
                                Yes, but from a more universal perspective based on Baha'i principles and spiritual laws. Example: Modesty is an important issue, but rigid standards concerning hijab and complete covering are not endorsed.
                                Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                                Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                                But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                                go with the flow the river knows . . .

                                Frank

                                I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                                Comment

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