Originally posted by Adrift
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This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to Islam. This forum is generally for theists only, and is not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theist may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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So...what we think of as Radical Islam is really just normal?
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostNormal people, yes.
Of the remaining 5, two of the countries do not apply Sharia Law.
Two apply Sharia Law on a personal basis: In Jordan, there are both civil courts and Sharia courts. The Sharia courts only apply when both parties are Muslim, or where, if one party is not Muslim, both parties agree to a Sharia court. In Morocco, "Morocco adopted a new constitution in 2011; Article 41 of this constitution granted sole power to the Superior Council of the Ulemas to guide its laws through Fatwas from principles, precepts and designs of Islam."
There's no data on Western Sahara, but since it was administered (still is administered?) by Morocco, I'm assuming the same regulations apply to them as it does Morocco.
So, if we're going by the percentage of Muslims in a country, the Imam's point may apply generally, but I think there's enough difference between heavily Islamic nations that it's not 100% clear cut.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostOh. Well to make it easier, half of the countries with the highest percentage of Muslims have invoked full Sharia Law.
Of the remaining 5, two of the countries do not apply Sharia Law.
Two apply Sharia Law on a personal basis: In Jordan, there are both civil courts and Sharia courts. The Sharia courts only apply when both parties are Muslim, or where, if one party is not Muslim, both parties agree to a Sharia court. In Morocco, "Morocco adopted a new constitution in 2011; Article 41 of this constitution granted sole power to the Superior Council of the Ulemas to guide its laws through Fatwas from principles, precepts and designs of Islam."
There's no data on Western Sahara, but since it was administered (still is administered?) by Morocco, I'm assuming the same regulations apply to them as it does Morocco.
So, if we're going by the percentage of Muslims in a country, the Imam's point may apply generally, but I think there's enough difference between heavily Islamic nations that it's not 100% clear cut.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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In some conversations---particularly those conversations that have elements of scapegoating---I find it useful to point out that all human beings have the potential for great achievements and grave flaws...this helps the conversation begin on more neutral ground which is more beneficial....
How does "Law" become "legitimate"?
In pre-modern times---a degree of divine sanction made "laws" legitimate.
Modernity brought with it a different paradigm--Human reason was considered supreme and under the presumption of "Universality" their imposition was sanctioned.
....So "traditional" systems of justice were destroyed in order to make way for an alleged "Universal" paradigm....In this system a nation-state has only one law---generated by the state and imposed on the citizens. It is legitimate because it is enforced. This aspect of Modernity does not change regardless of what the label of the law might be---so French law, British law, Sharia law---all operate in this paradigm.
"Modernity" was not the paradigm in which Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh) arose. Rather religious freedom/plurality as promoted in pre-Islamic Persian Empire was more likely the dominant paradigm. (see-Cyrus cylinder). Sharia developed in the context of an assumption of legitimacy of all divine laws and so there was a context of "plurality of laws" in any large geographical area held together by an "authority" such as Caliphate, Sultanate, Empire....etc....
Therefore, to take "Sharia" as the law of a nation-state in the Modern context can be problematic as it (Sharia) was not developed for a mono/singular legal system. This is an aspect that Muslim-majority countries are going to have to grapple with as we become an increasingly global and plural society....
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Originally posted by siam View PostIMO, there are 2 basic features/principles that are pre-requisites in making a "law" just...
1) Equality (All humanity is of equivalent worth--without this principle, injustice will prevail))
2) Compassion and Mercy (Any system of human organization/rules without the principles of compassion and mercy will lead to oppression)
Law should secure benefits for humanity and remove harm through a system that promotes an ethical/moral society by emphasizing rights and responsibilities of individuals and groups..... . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV
. . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV
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Originally posted by siam View PostIMO, there are 2 basic features/principles that are pre-requisites in making a "law" just...
1) Equality (All humanity is of equivalent worth--without this principle, injustice will prevail))
2) Compassion and Mercy (Any system of human organization/rules without the principles of compassion and mercy will lead to oppression)
Law should secure benefits for humanity and remove harm through a system that promotes an ethical/moral society by emphasizing rights and responsibilities of individuals and groups....
The actual matter of fact evidence indicates that contemporary secular law in the west is superior than the application of Shiria Law in the Islamic world, despite weaknesses and faults in western secular law. The superior system of principles and spiritual laws are in the Baha'i Revelation, which were adopted by the United Nations, and the Humanist Manifesto by the humanists. Many aspects of Baha'i Spiritual Law are now adopted into Western secular law, and they are the standard for the contemporary modern world.
Your accusations of some vague biased 'modernity' in the west lacks objectivity of the reality of the nature of western culture society and law. Emphasizing the problems of the West and failing to acknowledge the severe problems in Islam remains a consistent problem in your posts.
Some aspects of the Baha'i spiritual laws that have been incorporated into Western secular law are: (1) The absolute forbidding of all forms of slavery and indentured servitude. (2) The mandatory universal education of all children inclusive of boys and girls. (3) Equal social and legal rights for women. (4) The spiritual law prohibiting 'rape' and its consistent application in society. In Islam laws prohibiting rape have failed miserably if the exist at all.Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-28-2015, 07:55 AM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThere does not exist one Sharia law. So effectively it is not an equality, and effectively anyone can be found in violation of it in one place or another. It eveywhere consists of interpretations. So how does it not stand against truth, justice and liberty?
Equality---Generally, today, when we speak of "equality" it is based on equality of opportunity --- for example---all children should have an equal access to the same quality of education...this is because our understanding of equality is based on "rights".
In the Islamic paradigm--Equality is understood as equivalent inherent human worth---as such human beings have both responsibilities and rights. For example---though all human beings are "equal" some have more knowledge than others---this entails a responsibility to share that knowledge with others who have a right to access that knowledge. Thus one of the functions (Maqasid al Sharia) is the "protection of intellect" (aql) and this can mean the process of acquisition, supply and dissemination of knowledge and the responsibilities and rights of the various parties involved.....
So, it is not enough to enact laws that require all school-age children to go to school---laws must protect the whole process of knowledge from research institutes to libraries to schools and universities as well as the publishing industry and its rights and responsibilities.....The goal or purpose of this legislation would be the well being of humanity and all of God's creations---and Justice would require an ethical and fair means of achieving this objective....
To be ethical and fair can mean to be independent of the dynamics and structures of power and privilege as these may tend to corrupt the process. Thus, "law" if understood this way---cannot be in the hands of the few who are privileged and powerful---but must protect the many who are not....therefore--essentially, it must be a system that balances the power structures of society---not colludes with it....
Voluntary assent to law---In order that law is a fair, just and ethical system---it cannot be forcibly imposed onto a group of people---rather, people must give voluntary assent to be governed by such a law. Since different groups of people have different ethical/moral standards, beliefs, traditions/customs...etc Imposing by force, one single system on all peoples can be unjust and oppressive.....
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostWhat the laws 'should do' is an important issue in contemporary Islam. It is very apparent that Sharia Law fails to do this in the contemporary world. One of the problems is that Shiria Law is not consistent, and is heavily dependent on later variable interpretation, and not really consistently based on the Koran itself.
Sharia---or rather Fiqh---has never been a perfect system---but then, all human endeavors have some flaws---it is not the flaws themselves---rather the striving/struggle for betterment (Jihad) that is important. Each generation is different from the one that came before---so our human struggle (Jihad) is not likely to reach perfection---as what might be best for one generation---may not fit the needs of another future generation.....
....That is why, it is the paradigm on which an ethico-moral structure is based that is important and not the specifics of the legislation itself.....Last edited by siam; 09-28-2015, 11:25 PM.
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"It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe."
---Thomas Paine
Protection of Deen---"Deen" is often translated as religion---but it can also be interpreted as conscience or "way of life". Freedom cannot be "true" without this fundamental understanding that we need to freely and voluntarily give assent to our conscience/way of life. Integrity of character would require that we live by the principles we believe in....
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Originally posted by siam View PostPlurality of laws---this is true of modern secular laws---for example, the laws of Canada are different from those of Mexico....etc....
Equality---Generally, today, when we speak of "equality" it is based on equality of opportunity --- for example---all children should have an equal access to the same quality of education...this is because our understanding of equality is based on "rights".
In the Islamic paradigm--Equality is understood as equivalent inherent human worth---as such human beings have both responsibilities and rights. For example---though all human beings are "equal" some have more knowledge than others---this entails a responsibility to share that knowledge with others who have a right to access that knowledge. Thus one of the functions (Maqasid al Sharia) is the "protection of intellect" (aql) and this can mean the process of acquisition, supply and dissemination of knowledge and the responsibilities and rights of the various parties involved...
So, it is not enough to enact laws that require all school-age children to go to school---laws must protect the whole process of knowledge from research institutes to libraries to schools and universities as well as the publishing industry and its rights and responsibilities.....The goal or purpose of this legislation would be the well being of humanity and all of God's creations---and Justice would require an ethical and fair means of achieving this objective...
To be ethical and fair can mean to be independent of the dynamics and structures of power and privilege as these may tend to corrupt the process. Thus, "law" if understood this way---cannot be in the hands of the few who are privileged and powerful---but must protect the many who are not....therefore--essentially, it must be a system that balances the power structures of society---not colludes with it....
Voluntary assent to law---In order that law is a fair, just and ethical system---it cannot be forcibly imposed onto a group of people---rather, people must give voluntary assent to be governed by such a law. Since different groups of people have different ethical/moral standards, beliefs, traditions/customs...etc Imposing by force, one single system on all peoples can be unjust and oppressive.....Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-29-2015, 12:30 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostThis is too idealistic in the reality of the Islamic world nor the West.
True, than what?
Usul Al Fiqh---(methodology of law)
When jurists contemplate on arriving at specific legislation they take" sources" into consideration---some of these are----
Quran---the general guide to ethico-moral principles
Sunnah---examples of the interpretation and implementation of the ethico-moral principles
Ijma---Consensus of the community
Qiyas and Ijtihad---Analogical reasoning, creative problem-solving.
Al Istislah---Public Interest
Al Urf---Traditions/customs of the geographical location/community
These considerations (with a couple of exceptions) are not that different from Modern Law practices....
The differences in Sharia occur because jurists of various schools give different weight to the various "sources" in their methodology of arriving at law.
Modernity has problems---our governments are corrupt---held hostage to the interests of global mega-corporations or the privileged/rich 1%---our social systems neglect the needs of the poor, the underprivileged, the minorities, our economic systems exploit the majority for the benefit of the rich and powerful few and our weak legal systems enable all of it.
Maybe we should think outside the box, use Ijtihad to come up with creative solutions for the betterment of all humanity?
If we were to bring back ethico-moral considerations into all of our actions---maybe---we can begin to make a difference?....
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Originally posted by siam View PostIf we understand "ideal" as striving for perfection---then it has to have a degree of unachievability---a standard/goal that is high so that we put in maximum effort to strive towards it. The methodology of arriving at law has to be pragmatic(because it has to be implemented in the real world)---but the vision of what the law is---its purpose and goals---can be idealistic.
Usul Al Fiqh---(methodology of law)
When jurists contemplate on arriving at specific legislation they take" sources" into consideration---some of these are----
Quran---the general guide to ethico-moral principles
Sunnah---examples of the interpretation and implementation of the ethico-moral principles
Ijma---Consensus of the community
Qiyas and Ijtihad---Analogical reasoning, creative problem-solving.
Al Istislah---Public Interest
Al Urf---Traditions/customs of the geographical location/community
The differences in Sharia occur because jurists of various schools give different weight to the various "sources" in their methodology of arriving at law.
Modernity has problems---our governments are corrupt---held hostage to the interests of global mega-corporations or the privileged/rich 1%---our social systems neglect the needs of the poor, the underprivileged, the minorities, our economic systems exploit the majority for the benefit of the rich and powerful few and our weak legal systems enable all of it.
Maybe we should think outside the box, use Ijtihad to come up with creative solutions for the betterment of all humanity?
If we were to bring back ethico-moral considerations into all of our actions---maybe---we can begin to make a difference?....[/QUOTE]Last edited by shunyadragon; 09-30-2015, 04:03 PM.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Are there any Bahai conversations among scholars about ethical economics, bio-ethics, social justice and the ethico-moral principles of law, Methods and purpose of Jurisprudence, philosophies of ethical leadership and governance, the care of the environment and resources....etc? These are conversations ongoing within the Islamic scholarly community---though Non-Muslims are also participants and/or audience....
The global Muslim community is also showing interest in ethico-moral considerations of their actions and this is reflected in the "halalification" phenomenon where people are increasingly looking for Halal options from music, food, clothes, medicine and health to finance, economics, social issues---etc....
Is there a similar trend among Bahai?
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Originally posted by siam View PostAre there any Bahai conversations among scholars about ethical economics, bio-ethics, social justice and the ethico-moral principles of law, Methods and purpose of Jurisprudence, philosophies of ethical leadership and governance, the care of the environment and resources....etc? These are conversations ongoing within the Islamic scholarly community---though Non-Muslims are also participants and/or audience....
Is there a similar trend among Bahai?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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