Limited Atonement?

[The Plain Jane]

Nor will they. What they will find are eschatological passages dealing with that generation to fulfill scripture and remove them from their context and apply them in such a way as to support the anti-gospel "God first hates you."

Just like Jesus' words “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses" were to that generation, huh?

The Unforgivable Sin is also a lesson to that generation AGJ442.

According to RanRan.

You should also know RanRan will never tell you where a verse comes from. Because the context always kills what he is trying to do with it.

[The Plain Jane]

But couldn't this verse be true for Unlimited Atonement as well? I mean, Christ did lay down his life for his sheep either way. I see your point but this is almost an indirect reference. When there are other verses that speak more directly about it.

Do you think you are really going to change a Calvinist's mind with all the evidence? I mean, think of atheists. They have all the evidence (the world) that God exists but they still don't believe He exists.

What you are trying to do it very noble. But the heated debate between RanRan and Trout shows that despite evidence people will still wallow in their heresy. RanRan never admitted his.

[AGJ442]

and to resurrect all men, respectively.

Please exlain what you mean here. Your not saying that all people will be saved. Right?

[The Plain Jane]

Please explain what you mean here. Your not saying that all people will be saved. Right?

My are you in for a let down.

[AGJ442]

Do you think you are really going to change a Calvinist's mind with all the evidence? I mean, think of atheists. They have all the evidence (the world) that God exists but they still don't believe He exists.

What you are trying to do it very noble. But the heated debate between RanRan and Trout shows that despite evidence people will still wallow in their heresy. RanRan never admitted his.

That's not really my intention. I know that I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I know, I know, I ask for posts and then I try to disprove them. It probably looks that way. I really just wanted to see if my assumptions were correct or if they could be refuted and to get another point of view.

[The Plain Jane]

That's not really my intention. I know that I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I know, I know, I ask for posts and then I try to disprove them. It probably looks that way. I really just wanted to see if my assumptions were correct or if they could be refuted and to get another point of view.

We are all here to learn.

[Trout]

Nor will they. What they will find are eschatological passages dealing with that generation to fulfill scripture and remove them from their context and apply them in such a way as to support the anti-gospel "God first hates you."

It's the powers in place that come against Christ's Gospel - we see it here as a microcosm of the world.

RanRAn believes that people whose sins have been forgiven are suffering in Hell, he's hardly the litmus for clear thinking.

John

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep.

But couldn't this verse be true for Unlimited Atonement as well? I mean, Christ did lay down his life for his sheep either way. I see your point but this is almost an indirect reference. When there are other verses that speak more directly about it.

Well, you could be right, but it appears that there are sheep that aren't of Jesus' flock:

Jhn 10:26

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

So it's possible that Jesus laid down His life for His sheep, but not all mankind are His sheep.

[The Plain Jane]

RanRAn believes that people whose sins have been forgiven are suffering in Hell, he's hardly the litmus for clear thinking.

You know what the nice thing is? He can't ignore you! Too bad I'm denied the pleasure of saying such things that he will hear.

[Trout]

Do you think you are really going to change a Calvinist's mind with all the evidence? I mean, think of atheists. They have all the evidence (the world) that God exists but they still don't believe He exists.

Jane, I'm a Calvinist because I think it harmonizes the data most accurately. I could be wrong, but at this point I don't think I am.

Would you at the very least agree that there are good reasons to hold to Calvinism?

What you are trying to do it very noble. But the heated debate between RanRan and Trout shows that despite evidence people will still wallow in their heresy. RanRan never admitted his.

The hardest of all things is serious introspection. I've changed my major doctrinal holdings a few times and it wasn't easy.

[RanRan]

Please exlain what you mean here. Your not saying that all people will be saved. Right?

It's clear from scripture that Christ propitiated God not just for our sins but the sins of the whole. Those who wish to heap those sins back onto man are the 'religious' of all stripes - call them Pharisees, 'Evangelicals', Moslems, whatever, but 'religious' as a category will do as those opposed to the Gospel 'in God's name' always! ( and oh so tempting) as the bearers of Truth. Are they?

I don't think so.

But to answer your question...We see Christ's redemption of man in play at His Judgment (not man's judgment). Matthew 25 depicts a universally ressurected humanity (the people before him), some of whom did not love God or their neighbor enough to even give them a cup of water. We will be judged by our love, not our sins. "God is not counting men's sin against them." We will all be judged by our hearts. Who here is capable of that judgment? The self-styled religious heaping sins back onto mankind as though Christ had never taken them away? I think not.

I am trying to follow the early church fathers in thier belief that Christ redeemed humanity - every one of us. I detest innovation, I'm not inventing something new here - just going back to a time before politicised 'Christianity' took hold. "Christian' against 'Christian'. ie What we see here on these so-called 'forums.' I don't expect everyone to be up to the task...

[The Plain Jane]

Jane, I'm a Calvinist because I think it harmonizes the data most accurately. I could be wrong, but at this point I don't think I am.

I didn't know man.

Would you at the very least agree that there are good reasons to hold to Calvinism?

But of course. I have said several times on the threads that I have deep respect for Calvinism. I agree with the T to the best of my knowledge. Man is most certainly corrupt. I love reading John Piper books, and I have have deep appreiciation for your emphasis on the sovernity of God.

I do not see how you can reconcile the rest of the TULIP with Scripture. That is just what I don't see. I will discuss it with you if you want.

The hardest of all things is serious introspection. I've changed my major doctrinal holdings a few times and it wasn't easy.

I have changed my holdings as well, and have questioned them. Remember the Was Luther a Heretic thread? I started it.

[The Plain Jane]

But to answer your question...We see Christ's redemption of man in play at His Judgment (not man's judgment). Matthew 25 depicts a universally ressurected humanity (the people before him), some of whom did not love God or their neighbor enough to even give them a cup of water. We will be judged by our love, not our sins. "God is not counting men's sin against them." We will all be judged by our hearts. Who here is capable of that judgment? The self-styled religious? I think not.

So the wages of sin isn't death? The bold is taken out of context, and I have already pointed this out to RanRan.

I am trying to follow the early church fathers in thier belief that Christ redeemed humanity - every one of us. I detest innovation, I'm not inventing something new here - just going back to a time before politicised 'Christianity' took hold. "Christian' against 'Christian'. ie What we see here on these so-called 'forums.'

Oh but I think you are! They didn't teach that all mankind was forgiven!

And if you are so disgusted with these forums, why do you hang around humm? I seem to remember you saying things like "Don't be such an idiot" and "You are a snake." Yeah, you are in a place to pronouce judgment over what goes on, all right.

[beloved57]

Maybe this will help ! In gen 3 : 15 we have these words :

15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Who is speaking ?

who is being spoken to ?

Who has a seed from this verse ?

[Trout]

Please exlain what you mean here. Your not saying that all people will be saved. Right?

Yes, RanRan believes that all are saved (not will be) but there are a great many of the saved suffering in Hell.

[Reader]

That's not really my intention. I know that I'm not going to change anyone's mind. I know, I know, I ask for posts and then I try to disprove them. It probably looks that way. I really just wanted to see if my assumptions were correct or if they could be refuted and to get another point of view.

Without understanding of the very personal, Federal Headship of Jesus Christ, one cannot clearly see the Scriptural teachings of Limited Atonement.

Those who hold to unlimited atonement, excuse the fact that not all souls are universally saved, by blaming the faulty responses of all those who will not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But Jesus clearly promised the Father that all those He came to represent and die for would believe and be saved, and not a single one of them would perish in their sins:

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the wuill of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:38-40

The truth of this promise has unfortunately been reversed. Instead of the common misconception that it is all those who choose to believe who will not be lost, it is actually all those chosen by God to believe will not be lost. It is these latter souls that the Father has given to the Son to represent in His life, death, and resurrection. These will certainly believe and inherit everlasting life. Not a one of these known by the Father, accepted in the Beloved, and named in the Lamb's Book of Life will be lost.

These "sheep" given to Christ the Shepherd, under the protection of
His federal headship will come to Him, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the workings of irresistible grace on their behalf:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep . . .I am the good shepherd; I know My own and My own know me, as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice. There shall be one flock, one shepherd. For the reason the Father loves me, because I lay down My life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from My Father." John 10:11, 14-18

"I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom Thou hast given Me, for they are Thine; all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine, and I am glorified in them. . . I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. . . They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctificy them by Your truth. Your word is truth." John 17:9&10, 14, 16&17

"Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son that the Son may glorify Thee, since Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, so that He might give eternal life to all whom Thou has given Him." John 17:1&2

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." John 5:21

In the above verses an antithesis is revealed between those given to Christ by the Father and the rest of the world. To the unbelieving world, these words of Christ apply:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." John 10:25-29

"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceedeth forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. . . .He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God." John 8:42-44a, 47

"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Matthew 7:23

The work of Jesus Christ on the cross was personal; He represented individuals by name in His suffering and death. The particular sins of the people He represented were remitted, but not the sins of all men. These particular people were known by the Father, and given to the Son out of all the world, thus the Scripture that teaches:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." I John 2:2

"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father." Galatians 1:4

The atonement of Jesus Christ is limited to those He was given to deliver, without fail, from this evil world. If Jesus did not pray for the whole world, He certainly did not shed His blood on the cross for the whole world.

The atonement of Jesus Christ was never meant to make it possible for the whole evil world to be saved; for God is not the Father of all souls in the world; multitudes are children of the devil and not even "known" by Father God in Heaven.

Jesus Christ died for His church, not for strangers.

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which He obtained for Himself with His own blood." Acts 20:28

The church of Jesus Christ alone, was purchased with His blood:

"Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old . . ." Psalm 74:2a

"And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased." Psalm 78:54

The atonement of Jesus Christ is limited to His church, which is antithetical to the unbelieving world.












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