Limited Atonement?

[RanRan]

RanRan, Is your position that because Christ paid for the sins of humanity at the cross, that they will not be judged for that sin at the Great White Throne judgement?

That's correct. God judges the heart. It comes down to a cup of water given or not given. "God is not counting men's sin against them." The self-righteous don't like that fact, at all. They go about inventing sins that Christ did not take away. Luther thought the 'cup of water' was the Gospel given or not given. ie Love.

[The Plain Jane]

That's correct. God judges the heart. It comes down to a cup of water given or not given. "God is not counting men's sin against them."

IN CHRIST. Those IN CHRIST do not have their sins counted against them. It says so in the verse before it. AGJ442, I told you he takes Scripture out of context. If you want to see the context yourself AGJ442, go to Biblegateway.com, select Keyword Search on the left, type "counting" in the search box, and select the epiestles to be searched. Select the New King James Version. Biblegateway is excellent to find a verse when someone refuses to tell you where the verse comes from.

The self-righteous don't like that fact, at all. They go about inventing sins that Christ did not take away. Luther thought the 'cup of water' was the Gospel given or not given. ie Love.

All sin was suffered at the Cross, but that doesn't mean all sin is forgiven. Paul didn't make that conclusion. Instead, Paul talked about the wrath abiding on the unrepentant in the first few chapters in Romans. Explain how their sins are forgiven RanRan, unless Paul's words themselves was a "lesson to that generation."

[RanRan]

IN CHRIST.

Jane, everyone is in Christ, just as everyone was in Adam.

Faith is not a work that 'converts' God.

[The Plain Jane]

Jane, everyone is in Christ, just as everyone was in Adam.

Faith is not a work that 'converts' God.

Why didn't Paul say those unrepentant sinners were in Christ? Paul used the term a lot RanRan, and it was always reference to Christians.

1 Cor 15

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

This is the only verse you got RanRan. And in context, Paul is saying just as all die, all will be resurrected. Nothing more, nothing less.

I have explained it to you before. You claim others are unteachable, well what about yourself!

[AGJ442]

But are you going to discuss the rest of the TULIP? Did you see my brief analysis of it eariler in the thread?

Okay. Yeah sorry Jane, I did see that post but I was responding to the remaining posts on atonement to try to finish that out, but it seems that everyone is done here and I have no new responses to my question so I guess we can start at the begining with "T". Maybe this should be another thread but here is my take on Total Depravity. It does not follow the Calvinistic approach but there are similarities. I just come to a different conclusion.


1. As the result of Adam's transgression, men are born in sin and by nature are spiritually dead; therefore, if they are to become God's children and enter His kingdom, they must be born again.
a. When Adam was placed in the garden of Eden, he was warned not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil on the threat of immediate spiritual death (Gen 2:16, 17).
b. Adam disobeyed and ate of the forbidden fruit (Gen 3:1-7); consequently, he brought spiritual death upon himself and upon the human race (Rom 5:12; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13).
c. Although Eve also ate of the forbidden fruit and died spiritually, it is the sin of Adam that has thrown the whole human race into depravity because he sinned with full cognition of his actions; Eve, however, was deceived by the serpent (2 Tim 2:14).
d. David confessed that he, as well as all other men, was born in sin (Psa 51:5; 58:3).
e. Because men are born in sin and are by nature spiritually dead, Jesus taught that men must be born again if they are to enter God's kingdom (Jn 3:5-7; cp Jn 1:12, 13).

2. As the result of the fall, men are blind and deaf to spiritual truth. Their minds are darkened by sin; their hearts are corrupt and evil (Gen 6:5; 8:21; Eccl 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mk 7:21-23; Jn 3:19; Rom 8:7, 8; 1 Cor 2:14; Eph 4:17-19; 5:8; Tit 1:15).

3. Before sinners are born into God's kingdom through the regenerating power of the Spirit, they are children of the devil and under his control; they are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34, 44; Rom 6:20; Eph 2:1, 2; 2 Tim 2:25, 26; Tit 3:3; 1 Jn 3:10; 5:19).

4. The reign of sin is universal; all men are under its power; consequently none is righteous, i.e., born righteous. (2 Chron 6:36; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; 143:2; Prov 20:9; Eccl :20, 29; Isa 53:6; 64:6; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:2, 8; 1 Jn 1:8, 10).

5. Men left in their dead state are unable to save themselves. They have no power within themselves, i.e., their own merit or work, to change their natures or to prepare themselves for salvation (Job 14:4; Jer 13:23; Matt 7:16-18; 12:33; Jn 6:44, 65; Rom 11:35, 36; 1 Cor 2:14; 4:7; 2 Cor 3:5).

6. Man in fallen state, though totally unable to produce any work or meritorious effort to satisfy God's righteousness, still has retained the image of God. This image of God is effaced, but not erased (Gen 1:26-27 cp Gen 9:6; 1 Cor 11:7; James 3:9).

7. The doctrine of Depravity, then does NOT declare that man is as depraved as he can be. Man is fallen, not a corpse incapable of movement. He is able to make the decision that God has given him to make. I.E. Salvation, as the Bible declares. (Acts 16:31, John 20:31, John 3:36, John 16-18, John 1:12, etc.)

8. Grace is not appreciated by anyone until they find out how powerless and hopeless and meritless they are. (This was Paul's point in Romans 4:2).


The Calvanist view of Depravity is that we are totally fallen and are likewise unable to believe in Christ. Again, another point that you must presuppose Unconditional Election to arrive at.

[The Plain Jane]

This is the only verse you got RanRan. And in context, Paul is saying just as all die, all will be resurrected. Nothing more, nothing less.

RanRan, every Christian I have ever known uses the terms IN CHRIST as a reference to salvation, as a reference to belief. Why are you going to abuse that? Did the fathers say that every body was IN CHRIST? If you mean everyone is IN CHRIST in terms everyone is being resurrected that is true.

But that is not how Christians use the term. I remember A-Man rebuking you for your error.

AGJ442, I will respond tomorrow. I agree with the T.

[beloved57]

c. Although Eve also ate of the forbidden fruit and died spiritually, it is the sin of Adam that has thrown the whole human race into depravity because he sinned with full cognition of his actions; Eve, however, was deceived by the serpent (2 Tim 2:14).

so therefore sin was not in the world prior to adams sin , correct ?

[Rightglory]

Jane,

Suppose someone who thinks redeemed means saved is reading this thread. They will come away thinking Christianity teaches all men are saved,

Exactly, and I'm not the only one who thinks this. MANY people think this, not just a few.

If they believe that then they do not understand what the Bible is actually saying.
Mankind was saved. That is what redemption, reconcile, made righteous, means and accomplished. But the error of your thinking is that this equates with the saving of souls or individuals.
The difference is saved mankind and saved each man.
Christ's work on the cross saved us from two things. Death and death. That is saved from the bondage to death and sin, saved from the curse of Adam. The physical was overcome.

The atonement of Christ is the second aspect of Christ's work and was necessary because He overcame death, the physical part of the fall. The atonement was to save us from the second death, or the spiritual. This spiritual is what man fell from due to the fall, which is physical death. It made the spiritual impossible. The first was imposed upon all men, mankind. The second death was also paid for. Christ bore the punishment of our sins, spiritual death for us. This is what He offers to mankind for the purpose of saving his soul, or from hell.
Hell cannot exist except that mankind be redeemed. Redeemed (saved)I agree. And saying the world is purchased gets the same idea across without causing confusion.
from the curse of Adam which is physical death.
I Cor 15 spells this out quite well. Vs 46 tells you the sequence of salvation, which happens to be the same sequence of the fall. John 6:39-40 also clearly spells out the distinction.
If you want to use the terminology of scripture you should use it as it is defined there, not in the dictionary which does not show that there are two aspects of salvation, mankind and man's.

That is Universalism.
Which can be described in todays terms "Christ redeemed the world."

That is not universalism. Christ redeeming the world is universal redemption but not universal salvation. There is a very clear distinction. to keep the distinction one must alway use mankind with universal redemption, never universal salvation. When speaking of the salvation of the soul it is the salvation of individual man, not mankind.

I agree. And saying the world is purchased gets the same idea across without causing confusion.

That I do not see, since it means the same thing again, different word but same meaning.

[Michael T.]

I gave some Scriptures regarding Unlimited Atonement, which is what this thread is supposed to be about, and got no response to it.
Do you want more?

I'm sure that I can provide more verses but respond to what I gave first.

Given that the Scriptures are always entirely consistent in themselves – which of course is to be expected from these Divinely-inspired documents – nowhere do the Scriptures ever teach or imply “unlimited atonement.”

That is, the idea of “unlimited atonement” is only a pre-supposition that occurs in individuals’ minds – it has never existed anywhere in the Scriptures.

So it’s impossible for you and anyone else to produce Scriptures “in support of unlimited atonement” because no such Scriptures exist.

IOW, you need to learn to distinguish between (1) universalistic presuppositions are saying to you and (2) the Scriptures – and ONLY the Scriptures – are saying. But it may be that you lack the ability ti do so, and if so, this will certainly frustrate and thwart your wish to objectively and effectually address the Biblical and Apostolic truth of Particular Redemption; a.k.a. Limited Atonement, as is already obvious.

HINT: All “scripture interpretations” which differ in even the slightest degree from the testimony of ALL of the Scriptures are untrue, and there these must always be totally rejected.

I gave some Scriptures regarding Unlimited Atonement, which is what this thread is supposed to be about, and got no response to it.

Do you want more?
I'm sure that I can provide more verses but respond to what I gave first.

Thus, you’re unable to provide any Scripture verses that teach or imply “unlimited atonement.” Nor have you done so. And why not? Because no such verses exist anywhere in the Scriptures.

Finally, the Biblical Fact of the LORD God’s already-accomplished Election and Predestination in respect of salvation [refer Ephesians 1:3-11] are infinitely sufficient to expose the humanistic theory of @unlimited atonement” as fictitious, absurd, and ultimately blasphemous.

Michael T.

[Rightglory]

Michael T.

Finally, the Biblical Fact of the LORD God’s already-accomplished Election and Predestination in respect of salvation [refer Ephesians 1:3-11] are infinitely sufficient to expose the humanistic theory of @unlimited atonement” as fictitious, absurd, and ultimately blasphemous.

I guess you should apply the first part of this post to your last paragraph.
I see no limited atonement in Ephesians 1:3-11 so explain if you will and also show any other texts that clearly delineate limited atonement.

[AGJ442]

Given that the Scriptures are always entirely consistent in themselves – which of course is to be expected from these Divinely-inspired documents – nowhere do the Scriptures ever teach or imply “unlimited atonement.”

That is, the idea of “unlimited atonement” is only a pre-supposition that occurs in individuals’ minds – it has never existed anywhere in the Scriptures.

So it’s impossible for you and anyone else to produce Scriptures “in support of unlimited atonement” because no such Scriptures exist.

IOW, you need to learn to distinguish between (1) universalistic presuppositions are saying to you and (2) the Scriptures – and ONLY the Scriptures – are saying. But it may be that you lack the ability ti do so, and if so, this will certainly frustrate and thwart your wish to objectively and effectually address the Biblical and Apostolic truth of Particular Redemption; a.k.a. Limited Atonement, as is already obvious.

Finally, the Biblical Fact of the LORD God’s already-accomplished Election and Predestination in respect of salvation [refer Ephesians 1:3-11] are infinitely sufficient to expose the humanistic theory of @unlimited atonement” as fictitious, absurd, and ultimately blasphemous.

What is obvious is that you are trying to explain away an obvious literal translation of scripture to fit your own theological system. The only presupposition that I see is you presupposing determinism. You have not provided an alternate interpretation of the passages that I listed. So far your only recourse has been to say that Scripture doesn't support this doctrine, yet have given no evidence. In fact I see no scripture references save one. This passage in Ephesians says that we are elected "IN CHRIST" Please see the many places that it says In Christ or In him. It does not say individually elected. Does it?

HINT: All “scripture interpretations” which differ in even the slightest degree from the testimony of ALL of the Scriptures are untrue, and there these must always be totally rejected.

When you say ALL of scripture you must be simply refering to Romans 9 and a few other select passages because the majority of scripture deals with Free will. A call to believe, and a call to follow Christ with our attitudes and actions.

Thus, you’re unable to provide any Scripture verses that teach or imply “unlimited atonement.” Nor have you done so. And why not? Because no such verses exist anywhere in the Scriptures.

This is a completely baseless charge. It would seem in reading this ENTIRE thread no one in support of LA has been able to provide scriptural support for THEIR position. I have. In case you missed them here they are again.

1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth

1 Tim 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Oh by the way...Here are some more.

1 Tim 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

2 Cor 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Anyone reading these verses can see their literal meaning. Tell me why this does not qualify as scriptural support.

[RanRan]

Thus, you’re unable to provide any Scripture verses that teach or imply “unlimited atonement.” Nor have you done so. And why not? Because no such verses exist anywhere in the Scriptures.

There have been so many verses shown you on various threads that quoting more here is futile.

If you believe the Gospel, there are hundreds of verses supporting Christ's universal redemption of man in the NT alone. They spring out everywhere. Why can't you see them?

[Fizban]

What is obvious is that you are trying to explain away an obvious literal translation of scripture to fit your own theological system. The only presupposition that I see is you presupposing determinism. You have not provided an alternate interpretation of the passages that I listed. So far your only recourse has been to say that Scripture doesn't support this doctrine, yet have given no evidence. In fact I see no scripture references save one. This passage in Ephesians says that we are elected "IN CHRIST" Please see the many places that it says In Christ or In him. It does not say individually elected. Does it?



When you say ALL of scripture you must be simply refering to Romans 9 and a few other select passages because the majority of scripture deals with Free will. A call to believe, and a call to follow Christ with our attitudes and actions.



This is a completely baseless charge. It would seem in reading this ENTIRE thread no one in support of LA has been able to provide scriptural support for THEIR position. I have. In case you missed them here they are again.

1 John 2:2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Tim 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth

1 Tim 2:5-6 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Oh by the way...Here are some more.

1 Tim 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

2 Cor 5:14-15 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.

2 Cor 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Romans 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Anyone reading these verses can see their literal meaning. Tell me why this does not qualify as scriptural support.

Romans 5 also.

[The Plain Jane]

Admit it RanRan, all mankind forgiven is not a Lutheran teaching and jumping up and down isn't going to change what was written 500 years ago.

RanRan, I found a quote from the Book of Concord you may find interesting:

. 94] For just as we daily sin much against God, and yet He forgives everything through grace, so we, too, must ever forgive our neighbor who does us injury, violence, and wrong, shows malice toward us, etc. 95] If, therefore, you do not forgive, then do not think that God forgives you; but if you forgive, you have this consolation and assurance, that you are forgiven in heaven, not on account of your forgiving, for God forgives freely and without condition, out of pure grace, because He has so promised, as the Gospel teaches, but in order that He may set this up for our confirmation and assurance for a sign alongside of the promise which accords with this prayer, Luke 6, 37: Forgive, and ye shall be forgiven.

~~Large Catechism

I doubt the Book of Concord contradicts herself RanRan.

[RanRan]

When you say ALL of scripture you must be simply refering to Romans 9 and a few other select passages because the majority of scripture deals with Free will.

The early church had a lively faith in the atonement of God and an orthodox preterist understanding of the desolation of Jerusalem. The two go hand-in-hand.

Why is that important? Because it explains how God's wrath was poured out on that generation of Israel and how God now loved humanity without wrath.

Romans 9 is a highly eschatological passage explaining why some of Israel (the elect) were saved out of that wrath to fulfill scripture.

The early church fathers were not fools, they understood both that wrath poured out (to fulfill scripture) and Christ's sacrifice to atone God forever. The child-like faith, "God loves you.' stands without asterisks as the faith Christ pointed to for us.

Today, people use one to nullify the other, while calling themselves wise.

As the Beatles sang - "Get back to where you once belonged..." (they were talking about something else but the line fits...;-)