Limited Atonement?

[Michael T.]

… the majority of scripture deals with Free will.

What utter drivel. Scripture does nothing of the sort.
You seem to know nothing of the very basic Biblical Truths of Salvation by Grace, either from the Scriptures, or from practical experience or you wouldn’t make such appalling statements.

IN effect, you’re preaching the heresy of Pelagianism, and what is much worse, you’re reading your heretical Pelagianism into the Scriptures, and in that same process, you’re adulterating the Scriptures with your heretical Pelagian pre-suppositions.

Tell me, which bible are you using? The “jehovah’s witnesses” Watch-Tower bogus=bible?

A call to believe and a call to follow Christ with our attitudes and actions.

It seems that that you’re a stranger to Salvation by Grace.
Instead, you’re promoting “xtianity in the flesh” otherwise known as “religion without regeneration.”

This being so, maybe you’ll feel very much “at home” in Roman-catholicism because they’ve been pushing salvation by human effort and human will-power ever since their religion was founded by the murderer Constantine in the 4th. century AD.

… In case you missed them here they are again.

Romans 5 also.

Oh?
And precisely WHERE in Romans, chapter 5?

Are you perchance referring to the Romans 5 verses containing the word “all”? If so, then before you reply, be sure to apply the following essential steps:

1. Discard all your universalistic filters before you begin to consult the Scriptures.

2. First, carefully consider each of those verses in detail,

3. Then carefully consider those verses in their local context,

4. Then carefully consider each incidence of those Romans chapter 5 “all”s in the context of ALL of the Scriptures.

5. And before you reply, be sure to thoroughly take into account ALL of the inevitable implications of GOD the Father’s already-accomplished election and predestination to salvation by grace. I’ve already cited the principle Scripture references and-or verses in my earlier messages. Go back and locate them.

I look forward to your comments.

Michael T.

[AGJ442]

What utter drivel. Scripture does nothing of the sort.
You seem to know nothing of the very basic Biblical Truths of Salvation by Grace, either from the Scriptures, or from practical experience or you wouldn’t make such appalling statements.

IN effect, you’re preaching the heresy of Pelagianism, and what is much worse, you’re reading your heretical Pelagianism into the Scriptures, and in that same process, you’re adulterating the Scriptures with your heretical Pelagian pre-suppositions.

Tell me, which bible are you using? The “jehovah’s witnesses” Watch-Tower bogus=bible?



It seems that that you’re a stranger to Salvation by Grace.
Instead, you’re promoting “xtianity in the flesh” otherwise known as “religion without regeneration.”

This being so, maybe you’ll feel very much “at home” in Roman-catholicism because they’ve been pushing salvation by human effort and human will-power ever since their religion was founded by the murderer Constantine in the 4th. century AD.



Oh?
And precisely WHERE in Romans, chapter 5?

Are you perchance referring to the Romans 5 verses containing the word “all”? If so, then before you reply, be sure to apply the following essential steps:

1. Discard all your universalistic filters before you begin to consult the Scriptures.

2. First, carefully consider each of those verses in detail,

3. Then carefully consider those verses in their local context,

4. Then carefully consider each incidence of those Romans chapter 5 “all”s in the context of ALL of the Scriptures.

5. And before you reply, be sure to thoroughly take into account ALL of the inevitable implications of GOD the Father’s already-accomplished election and predestination to salvation by grace. I’ve already cited the principle Scripture references and-or verses in my earlier messages. Go back and locate them.

I look forward to your comments.

Michael T.

Unbelievable! I can see that my plea for you to remove your insulting insinuations from your posts has fallen on deaf ears. There are Atheists on this forum that show much more kindness than you are showing. I would respond to this post, but there is nothing of substance here.

[AGJ442]

Are there? When Christ spoke of His Judgement, all the (resurrected) people were before Him. People, not spirits of people. It is a mistake to call a person separated from their body as anything but DEAD. And they all bowed their knee to Him. Christ won the resurrection of all of humanity.

I was taking this from Revelation 20.

"They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."....."14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

There are two time periods here that are separated by about 1000 years.

[AGJ442]

AGJ442,


Well, lets look at it a couple of ways. First, you are right, that they died. They suffered the separation of body and soul.
Now, when God told Adam and Eve as Revealed to us in Gen 3:15 that a Savior would come in due time to correct the judgement, God from that moment on acted toward man as if Christ had already come.

Agreed

The OT does not elaborate on the place of death much. But Hades, Sheol were places that the ancients believed all the dead went. We know from the story of Saul and Samuel that the episode of the Witch of Endor, Samuel told Saul that he would die that day and be with Him. Now, where was that? If Heaven, then Saul by all accounts went to Heaven, yet the Bible is quite clear that He did (would) not. Samuel would be in Heaven.
We know that Christ decended into Hell, or Hades to free the captives there. Those OT saints are with Christ now, in heaven.
Thus, when you read the Church Fathers relative to this topic mankind was never treated by God as if they were permanently dead or mortal.

But in the NT Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16 where he indicates that the righteous man went to a place called Abraham's Bosom and that it was a place in Hades opposite of a place called torments. We can see that this is not Heaven. I believe that this is where Samuel was. I am not familiar with the passage that says that Saul would not go to Heaven. Can you post it for me?

That is the real point I guess, Communion or what we know as the Eucharist is an active element in our salvation. It is truly participation IN Christ. We must indeed partake of Him or we have no life in us.
The OT sacrifices were truly an archtype, but they also had an efficacious action for those Isrealites participating in that ceremony. It was not an empty practice and devoid of content. That is precisely why God could have an relationship with man in the OT, especially as He set it up for the Isrealites.

I did not mean to imply that the OT sacrafices were an empty practice. God's law certainly was not and is not empty. But the point of the law according to Paul is to show our failings and that we need a savior. I do not believe that Communion or the Eucharist is a part of Salvation. Faith in Christ alone is necessary for salvation. As it says in Acts 16:31. Anything added to Christ's sacrafice is works. We are saved by faith, not works.

but faith is active. It is real and alive. It is not static or lifeless. One must demonstrate belief. Today in the NT that faith or believe must be followed by repentance and baptism. It is the sincere desire of man to be IN Christ. It is not an empty thought and though only but action, proof or evidence of faith. This is what Satan lacks in his belief. It is a dead belief. Knowledge only, he cannot participate in it.

Would you say that the thief on the cross was active in his faith? He believed and then died, and was never baptized, yet Jesus says that he will be with him in paradise. Several other times in the gospels Jesus forgives sins based on faith. The baptism talked about with regard to salvation I believe is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit which each believer recieves at the point of salvation (when they believe). This is God's work not ours. If we believe in our heart then we are saved prior to any works as a result of that faith.

And no one is going to be raised until Christ comes again. They lived in hope of His first coming. We live in the knowledge that He came once, but in the hope, and a very good hope, that He will also come again for salvation.

True. Resurrection will not come until the rapture of the Church. but are we not secure in our salvation now? If a believer were to die at this moment Paul says that they would be absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.

Yes, the actualizatio of Christ coming in History, promised in Gen 3:15 is that Christ has indeed made all men alive by His Incarnation and resurrection from the dead. This is the point of salvation. Called redemption. Without it nothing else can occur. Nothing else matters. I Cor 15 spells this out very clearly.

Actually, I meant that the point of salvation is the point at which one believes in Christ.

But context is important. This text is all imcompassing. It spells out that all things are in Christ. This goes with Col 1:20 and others. We, mankind are all made alive in Christ. But the believer has one additional element, he will also live IN Christ. A difference of being made alive by Christ, in Christ, through Christ as saying we as beleivers Live IN Christ. Mankind truily is a new creature. The Savior has entered history, died, rose again for our justification. He made all things right with God. Because God created all things through Christ, He will (has) recreated and reunited all things in Christ. Physical and spiritual.

Well, I believe the context of 2 Cor. 5 to be Paul talking to believers as to their position in Christ. The new creation is at the spiritual level. Positionally being in Christ is different than where we operate Experientially. Also, I think that using the word reunited is not accurate since the very essence of hell is separation from God.

I understand that. But that is the secondary work of Christ on the Cross as I pointed out. Atonement would be null and void upon man's death, if death had not been overcome. I Cor 15:46 puts the order in perspective. It is the same order of the fall. Physical first, then the spiritual. Christ needed to give live before He could have a relationship with man, and with man in this life as we exist in a sinful nature and environement causing us to sin. You are right that the atomement is efficacious only for those who believe but added with that, those that confess. Sin separates man from God. The atonement is not automatic upon anyone, including believers. One must remain IN Christ, must continue to belief, not lose faith or become unfaithful through sin..

In light of verses such as John 10:28, Romans 8:38-39, Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:31, 2 Cor. 5:17 Romans 3 and 4 and others, I would say that our salvation is secure and not dependent upon works. If we must not sin to be saved then that is works. (2 Tim 2:13)

I address the rest of your comments in a post to RanRan. I was mistaken.

P.S. I appreciate your civil replies when in disagreement. Much more than I get from some around here.

[RanRan]

Anything added to Christ's sacrafice is works. We are saved by faith, not works.

Then why do people believe they are not redeemed until they believe? That completely undermines the Atonement of the Cross. 'You have already been ransomed!' Do you see the difference in thinking between the early church fathers and popular theology today?

Like it or not, one does make faith a work the moment the Atonement of God and Redemption of mankind is denied as an accomplished fact.

True faith believes that they have been redeemed, not that THEY make it happen.

For most people the Atonement of God means us converting God. The height of their 'theology' comes to this:
"God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't." Completely ego-centric.

[Mickey]

Then why do people believe they are not redeemed until they believe?

Because there are some who actually believe the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.He says that those who believe His word are passed from death unto life.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

A person is not passed from spiritual death unto spiritual life until he believes the Word of God.

And anyone with the slightest understanding of "redemption by blood" knows that a person in the state of spiritual death has not been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb.

In Christ,
Mickey

[AGJ442]

Well, first of all he came to save , not to make possible , not offer, but to give salvation:

This being given eternal life is not because of anything they did, but what he did for them, thats why it is by grace.

But, wouldn't his omniscience allow for him to know who would be saved thereby coming to save those who believe. I agree, salvation is by grace and it is nothing that we have done. There is nothing that we can do to be saved. However, Faith is not a work. The two are distinctly different in scripture.

You believe his people only refers to israel ! I use to think that a long time ago, but God revealed to me that His people is not confined to the jews only. Here are some verses:

Gods people are his sheep, Jesus told the disciples that he had sheep, or people that were not of the jewish fold:

so , all those who experience salvation from their sins are His people, not just of the jews, but also of the gentiles. it must be understood that being of ethnic jewish descent did not automatically denote spiritual salvation, look what jesus said to some jews :

I totally agree with you. Maybe I wasn't being very clear here. I was speaking about the passage in question. I am not saying that the Jews were God's people only. Here is the passage with the following verses.

21"She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet:
23"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."

Remember that when Jesus came, the Jews were still under the Jewish law. This passage is indicating that Jesus was the fulfilment of prophecy. He is the messiah from the line of David that the Jews were waiting for. Many times in the OT God refers to Israel as his people. The Jews were God's chosen people to represent him to the world prior to Christ and the Chruch and the Angel is speaking to Joseph who is a Jew. So The reason that I said this was speaking about Israel is that it would be more fitting with the context here.

God seeks his lost sheep , and them only. if you pay attention to his sayings and parables, it is only the lost sheep, the lost sons as in the prodigal, it is only those he seeks. Gods people fell in adam, thats when his people were lost, but christ has redeemed them and has recovered them through his redeeming death.

notice in luke, jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost, the election of grace fell in adam.

our believing does not make the son of God work and blood effectual, His blood and work produces faith in the elect, you have it backwards my friend...

May God give you understanding..

I think that this is where we may have to agree to disagree. I do not believe that I have it backwards. John 20:31 says "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name." First the belief then the life. This is stated as looking through time. From God's point of view, based on his omniscience, those who accept would already be known since God is not timebound as we are.

[RanRan]

And anyone with the slightest understanding of "redemption by blood" knows that a person in the state of spiritual death has not been redeemed by the precious blood of the Lamb.

In other words, "God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't."

What you are saying is that no one is or can be redeemed by His Blood. It depends on something more precious and provided by man.

[Mickey]

In other words, "God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't."

No,that is not what I am saying.The death of the Lord Jesus made it possible for God to "reconcile" all men before God (Col.1:20-22).

But in order to come within this reconciliation the sinner must be reconciled to God:

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God" (2Cor.5:19-20).

It is by faith that the sinner comes within the reconciliation.It is not until that time when the sinner is "redeemed by His blood".

What you are saying is that no one is or can be redeemed by His Blood. It depends on something more precious and provided by man.

I never said such a thing.

[RanRan]

The problem with most limited/unlimited atonement debates is that both sides are usually arguing from the same error: WE, somehow, make the atonement real, or effective, or actual, or Truth.

Nothing was actually accomplished on the cross, until we say so.

Christ's redemption of mankind is seen as a heresy by many because it offends their pride - they want to have had something to do with God's atonement.

The fact is: Christ had paid for your sins before you were born. That is true and is going to remain true, whether you believe it or not.

[RanRan]

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; ...'

It is by faith that the sinner comes within the reconciliation.It is not until that time when the sinner is "redeemed by His blood".

'God is not counting men's sin against them.'

Did you make that happen?

[AGJ442]

For most people the Atonement of God means us converting God. The height of their 'theology' comes to this:
"God hates your guts until you believe that He doesn't." Completely ego-centric.

No, I don't believe that. "For God so loved the world." This is why he sent his son to die for ALL of mankind. However Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by faith. My point was that faith is not a work.

[Trout]

The fact is: Christ had paid for your sins before you were born. That is true and is going to remain true, whether you believe it or not.

Then let me ask you yet again:

Why are people being punished in Hell?

Until you can effectively answer that, you're "theology" is completely ridiculous.

[Mickey]

The fact is: Christ had paid for your sins before you were born. That is true and is going to remain true, whether you believe it or not.

If that is true then all men will be saved because their sins are already paid for--"He dies for our sins".

However,the sinner is not "batized unto His death" until he "baptized into Jesus Christ:

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death" (Ro.6:3-4).

The sinner is not baptized into Christ until he believes the gospel:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the Body of Christ" (1Cor.12:13,27).

We have "life" in Christ (Col.3:4),and this life comes by His word as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus:

"It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

In Christ,
Mickey

[RanRan]

Why are people being punished in Hell?

Because they are not Official T-Web Administrators?