Limited Atonement?

[RanRan]

The work of Jesus Christ on the cross was personal...

Ah, the ego-centric gospel of the 20th century. All to the exclusion of your neighbor - whom God first hated...but not you...you're special. Stale air. The gospel of the big ego, and the bigger the better.

[The Plain Jane]

Ah, the ego-centric gospel of the 20th century. All to the exclusion of your neighbor - whom God first hated...but not you...you're special. Stale air. The gospel of the big ego, and the bigger the better.

The Cross only profits those in faith.

In that way it is very personal.

That is the Gospel of the first Christians, starting with the diciples.

Because I remember Paul saying the Cross is foolishness to those perishing.

(Did you notice the big use of Scripture there? I mean I didn't know Limited Atonement had such support. But you enjoy ignoring Scripture--and taking it out of context--so that doesn't surprise me.)

[AGJ442]

It's clear from scripture that Christ propitiated God not just for our sins but the sins of the whole. Those who wish to heap those sins back onto man are the 'religious' of all stripes - call them Pharisees, 'Evangelicals', Moslems, whatever, but 'religious' as a category will do as those opposed to the Gospel 'in God's name' always! ( and oh so tempting) as the bearers of Truth. Are they?

I don't think so.

But to answer your question...We see Christ's redemption of man in play at His Judgment (not man's judgment). Matthew 25 depicts a universally ressurected humanity (the people before him), some of whom did not love God or their neighbor enough to even give them a cup of water. We will be judged by our love, not our sins. "God is not counting men's sin against them." We will all be judged by our hearts. Who here is capable of that judgment? The self-styled religious heaping sins back onto mankind as though Christ had never taken them away? I think not.

I am trying to follow the early church fathers in thier belief that Christ redeemed humanity - every one of us. I detest innovation, I'm not inventing something new here - just going back to a time before politicised 'Christianity' took hold. "Christian' against 'Christian'. ie What we see here on these so-called 'forums.' I don't expect everyone to be up to the task...

It sounds like you are saying that we will be saved by our works. Where does belief in Christ come in?

[AGJ442]

Without understanding of the very personal, Federal Headship of Jesus Christ, one cannot clearly see the Scriptural teachings of Limited Atonement.

Those who hold to unlimited atonement, excuse the fact that not all souls are universally saved, by blaming the faulty responses of all those who will not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

But Jesus clearly promised the Father that all those He came to represent and die for would believe and be saved, and not a single one of them would perish in their sins:

"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the wuill of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:38-40

The truth of this promise has unfortunately been reversed. Instead of the common misconception that it is all those who choose to believe who will not be lost, it is actually all those chosen by God to believe will not be lost. It is these latter souls that the Father has given to the Son to represent in His life, death, and resurrection. These will certainly believe and inherit everlasting life. Not a one of these known by the Father, accepted in the Beloved, and named in the Lamb's Book of Life will be lost.

These "sheep" given to Christ the Shepherd, under the protection of
His federal headship will come to Him, through the power of the Holy Spirit and the workings of irresistible grace on their behalf:

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep . . .I am the good shepherd; I know My own and My own know me, as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice. There shall be one flock, one shepherd. For the reason the Father loves me, because I lay down My life, that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from My Father." John 10:11, 14-18

"I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom Thou hast given Me, for they are Thine; all Mine are Thine, and Thine are Mine, and I am glorified in them. . . I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. . . They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctificy them by Your truth. Your word is truth." John 17:9&10, 14, 16&17

"Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son that the Son may glorify Thee, since Thou hast given Him power over all flesh, so that He might give eternal life to all whom Thou has given Him." John 17:1&2

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." John 5:21

In the above verses an antithesis is revealed between those given to Christ by the Father and the rest of the world. To the unbelieving world, these words of Christ apply:

"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand." John 10:25-29

"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceedeth forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. . . .He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God." John 8:42-44a, 47

"And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!" Matthew 7:23

The work of Jesus Christ on the cross was personal; He represented individuals by name in His suffering and death. The particular sins of the people He represented were remitted, but not the sins of all men. These particular people were known by the Father, and given to the Son out of all the world, thus the Scripture that teaches:

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." I John 2:2

"Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father." Galatians 1:4

The atonement of Jesus Christ is limited to those He was given to deliver, without fail, from this evil world. If Jesus did not pray for the whole world, He certainly did not shed His blood on the cross for the whole world.

The atonement of Jesus Christ was never meant to make it possible for the whole evil world to be saved; for God is not the Father of all souls in the world; multitudes are children of the devil and not even "known" by Father God in Heaven.

Jesus Christ died for His church, not for strangers.

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which He obtained for Himself with His own blood." Acts 20:28

The church of Jesus Christ alone, was purchased with His blood:

"Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old . . ." Psalm 74:2a

"And he brought them to the border of his sanctuary, even to this mountain, which his right hand had purchased." Psalm 78:54

The atonement of Jesus Christ is limited to His church, which is antithetical to the unbelieving world.

"

A well thought out defense of Calvinism. The verses on Atonement I think could apply to either LA or UA. They only address the fact that Christ died for believers, which is true, but do not say anything about him not dying for unbelievers. I'm not saying that all are saved I'm saying that Christ died for all but his death is only efficacious to those who believe. I contend that Limited Atonement is only supported by reference to Unconditional Election and does not stand alone in scripture.

[RanRan]

It sounds like you are saying that we will be saved by our works. Where does belief in Christ come in?

First off, I'm not saying that. Let's both act with integrity here or all is lost. It's Christ depiction of the Last Judgment that counts, not ours.

Look what He says about His judgment:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

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I know there's faith in that judgment - can you find it? Does it stack up with how you judge your neighbor?

[TheAnalogman]

The hardest of all things is serious introspection. I've changed my major doctrinal holdings a few times and it wasn't easy.

Yes, it's downright painful.

[The Plain Jane]

The atonement of Jesus Christ is limited to those He was given to deliver, without fail, from this evil world. If Jesus did not pray for the whole world, He certainly did not shed His blood on the cross for the whole world.

I never thought of it that way before! Good case Reader, I enjoyed it.

[The Plain Jane]

First off, I'm not saying that. Let's both act with integrity here or all is lost. It's Christ depiction of the Last Judgment that counts, not ours.

Right, this coming from someone who called Trout a snake and me an idiot.

I know there's faith in that judgment - can you find it? Does it stack up with how you judge your neighbor?

You're deflecting RanRan. Answer his question instead of asking questions of your own.

[Reader]

A well thought out defense of Calvinism. The verses on Atonement I think could apply to either LA or UA. They only address the fact that Christ died for believers, which is true, but do not say anything about him not dying for unbelievers. I'm not saying that all are saved I'm saying that Christ died for all but his death is only efficacious to those who believe. I contend that Limited Atonement is only supported by reference to Unconditional Election and does not stand alone in scripture.

Do you believe Jesus Christ died for Judas Iscariot?

[AGJ442]

First off, I'm not saying that. Let's both act with integrity here or all is lost.

RanRan, I wasn't being disingenuous. Just trying to understand.

[The Plain Jane]

RanRan, I wasn't being disingenuous. Just trying to understand.

I can tell you now AGJ442 that, to him, "all is lost" if you disagree with him. And if you press him to support his position he will put you on ignore.

[The Plain Jane]

Yes, it's downright painful.

In my personal experience, it wasn't painful at all.

Why be in a Baptist church when you can be in a Lutheran one?

I found the change quite easy.

Now, I am going through a painful questioning of my Lutheran faith though.

[RanRan]

RanRan, I wasn't being disingenuous. Just trying to understand.

I didn't think that. Just be careful around here. The Gospel is fragile according to Luther. It goes from 'God first loves you' to 'God first hates you' in a heart-beat. It really comes down to choosing your 'gospel.' Be anything but niave - everything is at stake - as usual. ;-)

[The Plain Jane]

I didn't think that. Just be careful around here. The Gospel is fragile according to Luther. It goes from 'God first loves you' to 'God first hates you' in a heart-beat. It really comes down to choosing your 'gospel.' Be anything but niave - everything is at stake - as usual. ;-)

Again, this coming from someone who has called people snakes and idiots.

You may not be able to read this RanRan, but AGJ442 can, so I am making sure you don't fool anyone.

AGJ442, I'm not a saint myself though. I have apologized many times on this forum, and once even to RanRan (he ignored it).

But RanRan is right in this quote. I just don't want you to think that he never says anything wrong. (And I have met people on this forum who never says a harsh word) And what makes this worse, is that he boasts of His love for Jesus and his biblical love--then calls Trout a snake.

[Reader]

I contend that Limited Atonement is only supported by reference to Unconditional Election and does not stand alone in scripture.

Beware of anyone coming with a doctrine that "stands alone in Scripture!"

Every doctrine must harmonize with the entire teachings of God's Word.