How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

[Mountain Man]

My church is hosting a series of meetings with Peter Daniels who is a world renowned Christian and entrepreneur as well as motivational speaker (you can read more about him here).

As entrepreneur's are known to do, he puts a great emphasis on acquiring (arguably excessive) financial security and is visibly proud of his millions of dollars and brand new mansion (he carries a picture around to show people, which elicited "oohs" and "aahs" from the meeting I attended).

Personally, I get suspicious whenever anybody starts placing a great emphasis on accumulating wealth, and I asked him point blank how he reconcilled his business philosophy ("My business conviction based on God's word," he corrected me) and the Bible's teachings against wealth (Jesus' command not to build up treasures on earth and telling the rich young ruler to sell all had if he wanted to follow Christ). I said, "Can you put some scripture to this?"

He quoted Solomon saying, "Money answers everything" (from Eccelasties 10:19, "Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything." Isn't that stretching the context a little?) He also cited the Bible's prohibition against usury (Exodus 22:25, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury."), which didn't exactly answer my question.

Then he said that Jesus was, in fact, very wealthy. He claimed to have commissioned some research which showed that the gifts brought to Jesus by the Magi totalled $4 million by today's standards (he said that Persian documents showed that the gift was escorted by an army, and that the reference in Matthew 2 to Herod and the people being troubled was because they supposedly thought it was an invasion army; I don't know if this research has yet been made public). That Jesus owned a home (or homes) and employed people. That the clothes he was wearing at the time of his crucifixion were so valuable that the soldiers gambled over them (is that why they gambled?), and thus, if Jesus really taught against wealth the way I understand it then Jesus was a hypocrit.

Needless to say, I walked away from the meeting troubled, which brings me to the topic title: How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

[okcitykid]

My church is hosting a series of meetings with Peter Daniels who is a world renowned Christian and entrepreneur as well as motivational speaker (you can read more about him here).

As entrepreneur's are known to do, he puts a great emphasis on acquiring (arguably excessive) financial security and is visibly proud of his millions of dollars and brand new mansion (he carries a picture around to show people, which elicited "oohs" and "aahs" from the meeting I attended).

Personally, I get suspicious whenever anybody starts placing a great emphasis on accumulating wealth, and I asked him point blank how he reconcilled his business philosophy ("My business conviction based on God's word," he corrected me) and the Bible's teachings against wealth (Jesus' command not to build up treasures on earth and telling the rich young ruler to sell all had if he wanted to follow Christ). I said, "Can you put some scripture to this?"

He quoted Solomon saying, "Money answers everything" (from Eccelasties 10:19, "Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything." Isn't that stretching the context a little?) He also cited the Bible's prohibition against usury (Exodus 22:25, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury."), which didn't exactly answer my question.

Then he said that Jesus was, in fact, very wealthy. He claimed to have commissioned some research which showed that the gifts brought to Jesus by the Magi totalled $4 million by today's standards (he said that Persian documents showed that the gift was escorted by an army, and that the reference in Matthew 2 to Herod and the people being troubled was because they supposedly thought it was an invasion army; I don't know if this research has yet been made public). That Jesus owned a home (or homes) and employed people. That the clothes he was wearing at the time of his crucifixion were so valuable that the soldiers gambled over them (is that why they gambled?), and thus, if Jesus really taught against wealth the way I understand it then Jesus was a hypocrit.

Needless to say, I walked away from the meeting troubled, which brings me to the topic title: How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

You can make the scriptures say whatever you want them to say. Just find your choice of scripture, yank it out of context, put a twist on it. That's why the real word of God cannot be found on a piece of paper but within the heart, and what is on that paper should only confirm what is in the heart and not replace it.

I think many churches give voice to the wealthy because the wealthy give them money and money talks in this world. I don't think we will find such things in God's kingdom.

[squarepants]

My church is hosting a series of meetings with Peter Daniels who is a world renowned Christian and entrepreneur as well as motivational speaker (you can read more about him here).

As entrepreneur's are known to do, he puts a great emphasis on acquiring (arguably excessive) financial security and is visibly proud of his millions of dollars and brand new mansion (he carries a picture around to show people, which elicited "oohs" and "aahs" from the meeting I attended).

Personally, I get suspicious whenever anybody starts placing a great emphasis on accumulating wealth, and I asked him point blank how he reconcilled his business philosophy ("My business conviction based on God's word," he corrected me) and the Bible's teachings against wealth (Jesus' command not to build up treasures on earth and telling the rich young ruler to sell all had if he wanted to follow Christ). I said, "Can you put some scripture to this?"

He quoted Solomon saying, "Money answers everything" (from Eccelasties 10:19, "Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything." Isn't that stretching the context a little?) He also cited the Bible's prohibition against usury (Exodus 22:25, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury."), which didn't exactly answer my question.

Then he said that Jesus was, in fact, very wealthy. He claimed to have commissioned some research which showed that the gifts brought to Jesus by the Magi totalled $4 million by today's standards (he said that Persian documents showed that the gift was escorted by an army, and that the reference in Matthew 2 to Herod and the people being troubled was because they supposedly thought it was an invasion army; I don't know if this research has yet been made public). That Jesus owned a home (or homes) and employed people. That the clothes he was wearing at the time of his crucifixion were so valuable that the soldiers gambled over them (is that why they gambled?), and thus, if Jesus really taught against wealth the way I understand it then Jesus was a hypocrit.

Needless to say, I walked away from the meeting troubled, which brings me to the topic title: How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

Seems people can justify just about anything by twisting scriptures around. I wish people didn't do that.

As far as how rich Jesus was, I don't know. Can't say I really thought about it. He cared so much about the "low people" and put emphasis on helping one another. He did not put emphasis on accumulating wealth. In fact, He said it is hard for a rich man to get into heaven, and not to store up for ourselves "treasures" on earth.

I have no problems whatsoever if someone wants to have a lot of wealth because money DOES solve physical eartly needs. I don't even care if someone wants to or has an over abundance of wealth. It's when people LIE (like so many do these days) and say God/Jesus put such emphasis on those things, is what makes me mad.

Jesus could've been a gazillionaire for all I know (not that the bible says so), but his message was NOT about wealth. Humans are the ones who put emphasis on that stuff. They need to quit saying God/Jesus does.

[Jnthn]

You can make the scriptures say whatever you want them to say. Just find your choice of scripture, yank it out of context, put a twist on it. That's why the real word of God cannot be found on a piece of paper but within the heart, and what is on that paper should only confirm what is in the heart and not replace it.

OK, I'll bite.

What happens when your "heart" and my "heart" diametrically and exclusively contradict each other?

J

[Meh_Gerbil]

That fellow sounds dishonest - and like a scripture twisting fiend - to me.

[themuzicman]

My church is hosting a series of meetings with Peter Daniels who is a world renowned Christian and entrepreneur as well as motivational speaker (you can read more about him here).

As entrepreneur's are known to do, he puts a great emphasis on acquiring (arguably excessive) financial security and is visibly proud of his millions of dollars and brand new mansion (he carries a picture around to show people, which elicited "oohs" and "aahs" from the meeting I attended).

Personally, I get suspicious whenever anybody starts placing a great emphasis on accumulating wealth, and I asked him point blank how he reconcilled his business philosophy ("My business conviction based on God's word," he corrected me) and the Bible's teachings against wealth (Jesus' command not to build up treasures on earth and telling the rich young ruler to sell all had if he wanted to follow Christ). I said, "Can you put some scripture to this?"

He quoted Solomon saying, "Money answers everything" (from Eccelasties 10:19, "Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything." Isn't that stretching the context a little?) He also cited the Bible's prohibition against usury (Exodus 22:25, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury."), which didn't exactly answer my question.

Then he said that Jesus was, in fact, very wealthy. He claimed to have commissioned some research which showed that the gifts brought to Jesus by the Magi totalled $4 million by today's standards (he said that Persian documents showed that the gift was escorted by an army, and that the reference in Matthew 2 to Herod and the people being troubled was because they supposedly thought it was an invasion army; I don't know if this research has yet been made public). That Jesus owned a home (or homes) and employed people. That the clothes he was wearing at the time of his crucifixion were so valuable that the soldiers gambled over them (is that why they gambled?), and thus, if Jesus really taught against wealth the way I understand it then Jesus was a hypocrit.

Needless to say, I walked away from the meeting troubled, which brings me to the topic title: How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

THink for a moment about the feeding of the 5,000. JEsus said to feed them. The the apostles claim that they had no money? No. They said that it would cost them 8 months worth of work to feed such a crowd. THey had the money, they didn't want to spend it.

Also, there was apparantly enough for Judas (the treasurer) to dip into the fund without being noticed.

No, Jesus wasn't poor.

Michael

[Yonkth'Plonk]

THink for a moment about the feeding of the 5,000. JEsus said to feed them. The the apostles claim that they had no money? No. They said that it would cost them 8 months worth of work to feed such a crowd. THey had the money, they didn't want to spend it.

Also, there was apparantly enough for Judas (the treasurer) to dip into the fund without being noticed.

No, Jesus wasn't poor.

Michael

*Thinks for a moment* No, all it says is that they considered 8 months wages to be a preposterous figure, and way beyond their buget. I also consider 8 months wages to be well beyond my buget - does that mean I have it in the bank? Actually it strongly implies the reverse.

I haven't known many embezzelers (thank God) but assuming that one needs a large pot before one can start stealing goes against everything I know about human nature. And Judas was noticed - otherwise we wouldn't know about it.

Foxes have holes, and birds have their nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.

...where Jesus pointed out his poverty as a reason for a man not to follow him.

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

...following Jesus' challenge to a rich young man to give up everything he owned and follow Jesus.

Technically, this doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't rich, it just means that Jesus was either poor or an hypocrite and liar. If Jesus was rich, his teachings aren't worth using to create a business conviction.

[Howie]

My church is hosting a series of meetings with Peter Daniels who is a world renowned Christian and entrepreneur as well as motivational speaker (you can read more about him here).

As entrepreneur's are known to do, he puts a great emphasis on acquiring (arguably excessive) financial security and is visibly proud of his millions of dollars and brand new mansion (he carries a picture around to show people, which elicited "oohs" and "aahs" from the meeting I attended).

Personally, I get suspicious whenever anybody starts placing a great emphasis on accumulating wealth, and I asked him point blank how he reconcilled his business philosophy ("My business conviction based on God's word," he corrected me) and the Bible's teachings against wealth (Jesus' command not to build up treasures on earth and telling the rich young ruler to sell all had if he wanted to follow Christ). I said, "Can you put some scripture to this?"

He quoted Solomon saying, "Money answers everything" (from Eccelasties 10:19, "Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything." Isn't that stretching the context a little?) He also cited the Bible's prohibition against usury (Exodus 22:25, "If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury."), which didn't exactly answer my question.

Then he said that Jesus was, in fact, very wealthy. He claimed to have commissioned some research which showed that the gifts brought to Jesus by the Magi totalled $4 million by today's standards (he said that Persian documents showed that the gift was escorted by an army, and that the reference in Matthew 2 to Herod and the people being troubled was because they supposedly thought it was an invasion army; I don't know if this research has yet been made public). That Jesus owned a home (or homes) and employed people. That the clothes he was wearing at the time of his crucifixion were so valuable that the soldiers gambled over them (is that why they gambled?), and thus, if Jesus really taught against wealth the way I understand it then Jesus was a hypocrit.

Needless to say, I walked away from the meeting troubled, which brings me to the topic title: How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

There are those who claim that they can extrapolate from scripture that Jesus was rich, others claim that scriptures show that Jesus was middle class, and still others claim that scripture shows that Jesus was poor. Take your pick -- or rise above it and say, "We just can't know for sure."

Look to Jesus teachings about selling all your earthly possession, or gathering riches on earth as opposed to heaven, or look to the Sermon on the Mount.

If you asked this speaker if he loved God above all else, he would probably say yes. If you asked him if he loved his neighbor and kept the commandments, he would probably say yes. Then ask him why he does not sell all his earthly possessions, give the money to the poor and follow Jesus' path -- you probably find him scrambling to quote Paul or Psalms or Revelation... but he will not be able to quote Jesus. That is the test of a Christian: Do the teachings of Jesus come first and foremost. Jesus’ words and teachings cut right through and if we see through their lens then we quickly, clearly and easily see the difference between the wheat and the chaff.

All the best.

[Piebald]

The point of Christ's teaching is not that we are mandated to be poor, or to have no money, but that we're not supposed to have an inordinate amount of value on money. He wants money to serve us, he does not want us to serve money. He wants a quality of person.

Peter and the gang were likely successful fisherman and well off compared to their neighbors. Nevertheless, Jesus told Peter to leave all that behind and to follow him.

If you are spending lots and lots of time accumulating wealth it might be symptomatic of an inordinate value placed on wealth. You have to be a Peter and not a "Rich Young Ruler" -- the guy who hung his head down low and walked away when Christ told him to leave everything behind.

As for Jesus having houses all over Israel and millions of dollars in the bank, I think that's kind of ridiculous. If this guy wants to compare himself to Jesus, let him keep all his money in the bank and walk away from it.

Foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.

[okcitykid]

OK, I'll bite.

What happens when your "heart" and my "heart" diametrically and exclusively contradict each other?

J

I think prayer would then be inorder, maybe even repentance.

I think most people know what is right and wrong without having to read it in the bible.

If the heart was perfect we wouldn't need the scripture as a template, but never as a replacement.

[Mountain Man]

THink for a moment about the feeding of the 5,000. JEsus said to feed them. The the apostles claim that they had no money? No. They said that it would cost them 8 months worth of work to feed such a crowd. THey had the money, they didn't want to spend it.

What evidence do you have that the disciples had the money on hand but were simply reluctant to spend it?

Also, there was apparantly enough for Judas (the treasurer) to dip into the fund without being noticed.

Who says it wasn't noticed? And even if it wasn't noticed, so what? Ever hear of "cooking the books"?

No, Jesus wasn't poor.

But was he particularly rich? That was my question.

[Yonkth'Plonk]

The point of Christ's teaching is not that we are mandated to be poor, or to have no money, but that we're not supposed to have an inordinate amount of value on money. He wants money to serve us, he does not want us to serve money. He wants a quality of person.

Peter and the gang were likely successful fisherman and well off compared to their neighbors. Nevertheless, Jesus told Peter to leave all that behind and to follow him.

If you are spending lots and lots of time accumulating wealth it might be symptomatic of an inordinate value placed on wealth. You have to be a Peter and not a "Rich Young Ruler" -- the guy who hung his head down low and walked away when Christ told him to leave everything behind.

As for Jesus having houses all over Israel and millions of dollars in the bank, I think that's kind of ridiculous. If this guy wants to compare himself to Jesus, let him keep all his money in the bank and walk away from it.

Foxes have holes, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.

Exactly.

We should remember, when discussing success, that we're trying to emulate a man who died an agonizing death in his early thirties, and literally lost the shirt on his back.

[Mountain Man]

Jesus could've been a gazillionaire for all I know (not that the bible says so), but his message was NOT about wealth.

Interestingly, this Daniels fellow justified his focus on wealth by saying that Jesus talked more about wealth than any other subject, which didn't sound quite right. Didn't Jesus talk specifically about not accumulating wealth?

The more I think about it, the more this Peter Daniels sounds like a prosperity theology crackpot.

[Piebald]

To everybody in this thread, I'm looking for substantive and informed discussion about the Bible's teachings about wealth. In other words, I don't want the usual "You can make the Bible say whatever you want" peanut gallery nonsense.

I think if you are looking for a specific rule or some kind of cap of how much money we can posess, I don't think you aren't going to find it. The Gospels/New Testament are interested in creating a kind of quality of person. A person can be dirt poor and have the same heart and attitude as the rich young ruler: an inordinate amount of value placed on money. God wants money to serve us, he does not want us to serve money.

Usually if a person spends their time amassing great amounts of money it might be symptomatic of placing an inordinate amount of value on collecting worldly goods. Might. It's hard to judge someone's heart.

[Mountain Man]

Here are some relevant comments that JP Holding shared with me via PM (he declined to participate in this thread directly for personal reasons):

He claimed to have commissioned some research which showed that the gifts brought to Jesus by the Magi totalled $4 million by today's standards (he said that Persian documents showed that the gift was escorted by an army, and that the reference in Matthew 2 to Herod and the people being troubled was because they supposedly thought it was an invasion army; I don't know if this research has yet been made public)

I am sure it will be, once the next issue of the Weekly World News is published.

It is doubtful that the gifts were worth so much. There's certainly no way to know without the amounts of each.

These "Persian documents" are something he ought to turn over to scholars, since they don't know about them.

An "army" in the capitol of Judea would have started a war with Rome immediately. The Parthians were considered deadly enemies. Actually fighting would have started long before the army reached Jerusalem.

That Jesus owned a home (or homes) and employed people. That the clothes he was wearing at the time of his crucifixion were so valuable that the soldiers gambled over them (is that why they gambled?), and thus, if Jesus really taught against wealth the way I understand it then Jesus was a hypocrit.

No evidence for homes. Jesus was dependent on the patronage of wealthy supporters (Luke 8:3). If he had been rich himself, the honor strictures of the day would have meant he would have to be constantly giving it away or else be exceptionally unpopular. The robe was a nice one, to be sure, but it was likely a gift from one of his patrons.

How rich was Jesus, and what should be the Christian response to wealth?

There is no evidence Jesus was rich. If he was typical of artisans of the day he was not as poor as he could be but he was not rich either.

The model for wealth is established by Paul's comparison of giving to manna, and the way the church managed wealth in Acts: It should be distributed to those who have need for it, not hoarded. It should be wisely stewarded (so you can have stuff like investments that grow wealth to use for the greater good). Daniels' purchase of homes and such verges on obscenity.

And actually, even average Romans and peasants would have regarded Daniels as an obscenity for the way he showed off his wealth.

God bless,

JP