Is the Trinity wrong?

[mitzi]

All came forth from God. that is implicit in the definition of what Jesus worshiped as a God.

The true theology, the truly divine, is very simple, all complicated theologies you inherited from the world only pull you farther away from our father who art in heaven

Just so we understand the conversation and honestly what the belief is about the Trinity: Some of the passage that I have listed are about this.

Trinity

"Orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity. The Father is the cause or origin of the Godhead, from whom the Son is begotten eternally and also from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally. The Holy Trinity is three, distinct, divine persons (hypostases), without overlap or modality among them, who share one divine essence (ousia)—uncreated, immaterial and eternal."

See notes: LINK "Filioque"
Proceeds from the Father and the Son - - - >
The Scriptures | The Church Fathers

By Raymond Taouk

In coming to understand the Procession of the Holy Ghost, from the Father and the Son, we can see this from the fact that the Son is "begotten" from the Father-- this is the first kind of procession-- the Son exists from eternity, but was "generated" as the Word (John 1:1). Now, the Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Son (Gal., iv, 6), the Spirit of Jesus (Acts, xvi, 7). These terms imply a relation of the Spirit to the Son, which can only be a relation of *origin*.

In order for something to be "sent" it must proceed. Just as the Father externally sent the Son into time (in the world) the Son internally proceeds from the Father in the Trinity. This is confirm by Christ who said that "He" would send the Holy Ghost into the world (John 15:26,), thus it may be said that he internally proceeds from both Father and Son in the Trinity (Acts 2:33). An objection however is that some tend to try and distinguish between being "sent" and "proceeding" however such an objection is put to rest if one comes to see that all things that are sent actually proceed from their very source, much like the suns rays a sent to us from the sun but in actual fact we see that all light (no matter how small the amount of light we receive) all proceed from the sun (their source)>"

[barnasha]

All came forth from God? We were created in the image of God.

correct

(a picture of a cup of tea will never taste like anything but the paper it is printed on)

[mitzi]

correct

(a picture of a cup of tea will never taste like anything but the paper it is printed on)

You smell the tea, but can't find the kettle.......

Original post by Barnasha:
All came forth from God. that is implicit in the definition of what Jesus worshiped as a God.

Man was created in the image of God - He breath into man and gave him life by His Spirit. (period)

on the difference between formed and created

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create the darkness, I make well-being and create woe; I, the LORD, do all these things.
Isaiah 45: 8 Let justice descend, O heavens, like dew from above, like gentle rain let the skies drop it down. Let the earth open and salvation bud forth; let justice also spring up! I, the LORD, have created this.
Isaiah 45: 12 It was I who made the earth and created mankind upon it;
45:18 For thus says the LORD, The creator of the heavens, who is God, The designer and maker of the earth who established it, Not creating it to be a waste, but designing it to be lived in: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

Create: to cause to come into being, as something unique that would not naturally evolve or that is not made by ordinary processes.
Always Existed: God is Eternal, always existing.

To further explain:

God explains throughout the Old and New Testaments about these conflicts of man's opinions vs. His revealed truth. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. From the time of Abraham God declared that there was one God and had chosen a people to follow Him and demonstrate that He was the only true God. And, as it also is today, there were then many gods, whom people worshiped. This is what distinguished the Judea-Christian God from false gods. This information is preparatory as to why creation is the only way that we exist and the universe appeared. The fact is that evolution sets up a supposed escape for man. It's an illusion, yet it seems to allow man to decide that the world is millions of years old and matter created itself somehow. This provides the "escape" that man supposedly will never have to answer to God. This is to avoid the declaration of God: "the wages of sin is death", a punishment not to be ignored. To an unbeliever and to even many in churches, evolution is an escape, but God refutes all of this in the Bible's entirety from the book of Genesis to the last book of Revelation. Again, it is by faith one accepts this truth. The Bible is God's true word, because "holy men of old spoke [wrote] as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." 2 Peter 1:20. So the Bible's original text is infallible. Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning God created...". The first five words God gave to man, they weren't the topics of salvation, love, hope, death, or any similar topics. In the Hebrew the fifth word is "created". Now throughout time, it is inconsequential how individuals perceived certain truths. For example, looking back at perceptions, we know without question the world was and is not flat. Similarly, we have electricity, which the old world didn't use, but this doesn't mean it didn't exist. The best way to explain creation is simple, whereas mankind makes it hard. Concisely, using only the Bible's instruction, God created the heavens and the earth, God created all that is on the earth, including creating man in His image. LINK

Created, it does not say "came forth"......

[apostoli]

Hello mitzi,

Just so we understand the conversation and honestly what the belief is about the Trinity: Some of the passage that I have listed are about this.

Trinity

"Orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity. The Father is the cause or origin of the Godhead, from whom the Son is begotten eternally and also from whom the Holy Spirit proceeds eternally. The Holy Trinity is three, distinct, divine persons (hypostases), without overlap or modality among them, who share one divine essence (ousia)—uncreated, immaterial and eternal."

See notes: LINK "Filioque"
Proceeds from the Father and the Son - - - >
The Scriptures | The Church Fathers

By Raymond Taouk

In coming to understand the Procession of the Holy Ghost, from the Father and the Son, we can see this from the fact that the Son is "begotten" from the Father-- this is the first kind of procession-- the Son exists from eternity, but was "generated" as the Word (John 1:1). Now, the Holy Ghost is called the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Son (Gal., iv, 6), the Spirit of Jesus (Acts, xvi, 7). These terms imply a relation of the Spirit to the Son, which can only be a relation of *origin*...

If it is of interest to you here is a link to the official explanation, as presented some years ago by the Pontificial Council for Promoting Christian Unity THE GREEK AND LATIN TRADITIONS REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Also, here is a link that gives the history.

Peace

[mitzi]

Hello mitzi,

If it is of interest to you here is a link to the official explanation, as presented some years ago by the Pontificial Council for Promoting Christian Unity THE GREEK AND LATIN TRADITIONS REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Also, here is a link that gives the history.

Peace

Thank you and yes I will read this later on. Right now I'm not at home, but I will answer back - tonight on these two links - again thank you.

[barnasha]

Created, it does not say "came forth"......

creation is that which comes forth

[mitzi]

Hello mitzi,

If it is of interest to you here is a link to the official explanation, as presented some years ago by the Pontificial Council for Promoting Christian Unity THE GREEK AND LATIN TRADITIONS REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Also, here is a link that gives the history.

Peace

So the article indicates that the Greek Orthodox faith believes that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit proceeded forth from the Father (God) were as the Catholic faith said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son? So (and from what I understand) the Holy Spirit proceeds as the term of the act of the Divine will....His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made......

When you read either the book of Wisdom or even in Proverbs 8:

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;

23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.

24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,

26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,

31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.

[mitzi]

Hello mitzi,

If it is of interest to you here is a link to the official explanation, as presented some years ago by the Pontificial Council for Promoting Christian Unity THE GREEK AND LATIN TRADITIONS REGARDING THE PROCESSION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT

Also, here is a link that gives the history.

Peace

From the article: "According to St Maximus, echoing Rome, the Filioque does not concern the ekporeusiV of the Spirit issued from the Father as source of the Trinity, but manifests his proienai (processio) in the consubstantial communion of the Father and the Son, while excluding any possible subordinationist interpretation of the Father's monarchy."

what are your thoughts on this?

[mitzi]

creation is that which comes forth

These are commands - God spoke

Ge 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Ge 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.”
Ge 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so.
Ge 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit after their kind, with seed in them, on the earth”; and it was so.
Ge 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years;
Ge 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the heavens.”
Ge 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so.
Ge 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

*******

Ge 1:5 And God called the light day
Ge 1:5 And the darkness He called night.
Ge 1:8 And God called the expanse heaven.
Ge 1:10 And God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas.
Ge 1:10 And the gathering of the waters He called seas.

These verbal acts of God called “decrees” or “counsels,” made all the events of nature and history to be the effects of God’s Words. Adam’s first experience was that on hearing the Word of God (Gen. 1:28ff.) and the first command was given to Adam (mankind) in Genesis 2:16. Adam's life and also death depended upon his obedience to that Word (Gen. 2:17). After the fall, Adam’s only hope was that God would fulfill the promise of his Word (Gen. 3:15) - the redemption of man back to God and so God sent His Son, Jesus the Messiah.

Psalm 147, for instance, speaks this way:

He sends his command to the earth; his Word runs swiftly. He spreads the snow like wool and scatters the frost like ashes. He hurls down his hail like pebbles. Who can withstand his icy blast? He sends his Word and melts them; he stirs up his breezes, and the waters flow (Ps. 147:15-18).
********************

Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made." (Genesis 2:1-3).

These are commands

[barley]

and to read that verse again in John 8:42 "Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God;

"Jesus Christ is not his own source", didn't say that he was, Barley. It states "For I proceeded forth" and "came from God"...... same way as John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron - εξηλθεν verb - second aorist active indicative - third person singular exerchomai ex-er'-khom-ahee: to issue -- come (forth, out), depart (out of), escape, get out, go (abroad, away, forth, out, thence), proceed (forth), spread abroad. LINK

yes, the word that I believe came forth from God, In John 17:14-16, JC declares that believers are not of the world, even as JC himself is not of the world.

How is then that JC is not of the world?

Is it because he proceeded from the Father?

Well, then? What is it then?

What is your point?

[mitzi]

yes, the word that I believe came forth from God, In John 17:14-16, JC declares that believers are not of the world, even as JC himself is not of the world.

How is then that JC is not of the world?

Is it because he proceeded from the Father?

Well, then? What is it then?

What is your point?

I've stated my point with you at the beginning - I think that you're in the wrong.

Here's some of your key points:

Originally posted by Barley:

Let's actually read what JC says here in verse 40.
JC calls himself a man,
he does not call himself God the son,
he does not call himself a god-man,
he does not call himself a third of the trinity.
he does not call himself the second person of the blessed trinity,
he does not call himself God,
he calls himself "a man" He does even call himself, "the man"

and, in another one of your post:


Jesus Christ was not God at all. He was of course the word of God in the flesh. God's perfect truth lived out perfectly in living color. "I would rather see a sermon than hear one." JC was that perfect sermon of the Word.

Regarding your second point. Yes, anyone could claim to be a son of God. I John 3:1-2, certainly gives those people who are sons of God, the right to declare it. I for one am a son of God. There are many people that go to churches, read the Bible, etc., that are sons of God. These people need to know that they are so that they can give God the honor, glory, thanksgiving that God deserves. But alas, I John 3:1 also states that the world does not know us , because they do not know God.

*************************

Where's the point? the point is this, Barley - it's nice to know that you, yourself, claim to be a Son of God but in the above post (the first one I listed) you had claim that Christ did not claim that son-ship!

[mitzi]

Jesus Christ proceeded from God, God is the source of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is not his own source

So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me."

John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me."

Matthew 11:27 "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

No. Jesus is not his own source - that's the other point. When Jesus, the eternal Son of God, took upon Himself sinless humanity He also took on the form of a servant, giving up His heavenly glory (Philippians 2:5-11). As God rose (resurrected) Jesus from the dead proves that point - God glorified His Son -Christ died for our sins and he was raised for our justification," as Paul says in Romans 4:25. The Lord Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens - who is the one mediator between God and ourselves: to quote St Augustine -

"There is good reason for my solid hope in him, because you will heal all my infirmities through him who sits at your right hand and intercedes for us. Were it not so, I should despair; for many and grave are those infirmities, many and grave; but wider-reaching is your healing power. We might have despaired of ourselves, thinking your Word remote from any conjunction with mankind, had he not become flesh and made his dwelling among us. Filled with terror by my sins and my load of misery, I had been turning over in my mind a plan to flee into solitude; but you forbade me, and strengthened me by your words: To this end Christ died for all, that they who are alive might live not for themselves but for him who died for them." LINK

[mitzi]

Jesus Christ proceeded from God, God is the source of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ is not his own source

....and We are not our own source, either. We all draw strength from God through Jesus Christ. (John 15:5)

"You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other.”

[barley]

I've stated my point with you at the beginning - I think that you're in the wrong.

Here's some of your key points:

Originally posted by Barley:

Let's actually read what JC says here in verse 40.
JC calls himself a man,
he does not call himself God the son,
he does not call himself a god-man,
he does not call himself a third of the trinity.
he does not call himself the second person of the blessed trinity,
he does not call himself God,
he calls himself "a man" He does even call himself, "the man"

and, in another one of your post:


Jesus Christ was not God at all. He was of course the word of God in the flesh. God's perfect truth lived out perfectly in living color. "I would rather see a sermon than hear one." JC was that perfect sermon of the Word.

Regarding your second point. Yes, anyone could claim to be a son of God. I John 3:1-2, certainly gives those people who are sons of God, the right to declare it. I for one am a son of God. There are many people that go to churches, read the Bible, etc., that are sons of God. These people need to know that they are so that they can give God the honor, glory, thanksgiving that God deserves. But alas, I John 3:1 also states that the world does not know us , because they do not know God.

*************************

Where's the point? the point is this, Barley - it's nice to know that you, yourself, claim to be a Son of God but in the above post (the first one I listed) you had claim that Christ did not claim that son-ship!

thanks for taking the time out to read my post.

my post is referring to one particular verse, not the entirety of who Jesus Christ said he was. Of course Jesus Christ is the son of God, John 8:40 is not a place where that is stated.

in the verse that was being discussed, John 8:40, there are a lot of titles, names that JC could have called himself, but in this verse he calls himself a man, specifically a man that hath told you the truth.

About fifty times in the word of God, Jesus Christ is referred to as "son of God", however, never, not once, is he referred to as "God the son".. Son of God is scriptural, "God the son" is not. There is a huge difference scripturally, logically, and grammatically. For theologians to describe Jesus Christ as God the son is unscriptural and erroneous.

One of the points made is that being called a son of God does not equate with being God. No matter whether that son of God is Jesus Christ or any other son of God, you or me or anyone else, son of God does not equate with being God.

It is that simple.

Following through, look what Jesus Christ accomplished being a human, a son of God. Since God has given to his own, the privilege and honor of being sons of God, why are we not manifesting one tenth of what Jesus Christ did? Why not, when JC said in John 14:12, we could do the same works he did and greater?

Hosea 4:6 is one reason, people are well informed on tradition, but ignorant of scripture.

When we consider scripture, it is immediately apparent that Christianity is virtually powerless compared to what the scriptures teach we have as sons of God.

Jesus Christ is not God, and look at what he did. What is our holdup? Why are we not moving mountains? Why are we not healing the sick? raising the dead? standing lovingly and boldly and fearlessly in the face of accusation? Escaping every threat against us. Hosea 4:6 God's people do not who they are, they do not know who Jesus Christ is, therefore they do not know who God is.

It is that simple.

[barley]

....and We are not our own source, either. We all draw strength from God through Jesus Christ. (John 15:5)

"You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. This is my command: Love each other.”

That is correct, it seems that we are approaching being likeminded. Yes, our strength, ability, sufficiency is all things is through what Jesus Christ accomplished for us by his doing the will of his Father. Jesus Christ , a prophet, like unto Moses, was the one who brings all those who chose to follow