Persecution as Proof of Salvation

[Cow Poke]

If a people are in the state that Cow Poke describes, they do need to be babysat. In Biblical concept, they need milk - and of course that "milk" is the proper grounding in sound doctrine that would allow them to be able to consume meat (and fruit and veg). Naturally enough, their education needs to include matters that are not doctrine, together with a due regard for proper physical nutrition: it is an overall package.

Yes, and no time needed to be wasted teaching that "Catholicism was tainted" or going into the history of that, or "the failure of the previous missions". That would be silly. So, yes, what they needed was a foundation of sound doctrine, along with the physical attention (medical and nutritional) we were there to provide, along with encouragement and support.

[tabibito]

No, you haven't been clear on the correlation between Catholicism and the voodoo taint. If Catholicism isn't pertinent to the witchcraft infiltration, then there's no need to mention it.

I take it, however, that you DO believe that Catholicism was relevant to the taint taking place. If that's the case, I need to know why the Catholic mission failed so hard.

The brands of Christianity promoted by the Byzantine and Roman rites do have particular vulnerabilities that present an avenue for that sort of contamination. But there is a tendency for communities such as Haiti to "add" the Christian God to their pre-existing pantheons anyway.

[Cow Poke]

For anybody interested, here's a Wiki article* that discusses, at least in some detail, the problem with Catholicism/Vodou in Haiti.

The revolutionary Jean-Jacques Dessalines presumptively proclaimed himself head of the church in Haiti after the Haitian Revolution. He set forward to limit the jurisdiction of priests and to appoint men to vacant positions in local church communities. He himself had caused the assassination of a large number of the missionaries by failing to stop slaughter of the white colonists. This caused a schism between the Haitian state and Rome, resulting in Rome's declining to send priests into the country. There were no priests to provide guidelines for the newly established Haitian state. As a consequence, the principles of Vodou and Catholicism were merged and Catholicism (with its Vodou influences) was made the state's official religion under the leadership of Henri Christophe.

Another cause of the syncretic connection between Catholicism and Vodou was the state's ordination of Haitian men to the priesthood – a step that the Vatican would not recognize as legitimate. However, mixture of both religions shaped the way of how Haitians practice their ritual. The Haitians were going to church, but they continued to adhere to Vodou, using the rituals of the church to mask the practices of their native traditions.

There have been several killings in the past of Christian pastors, and some Christians blame those murders on the influence of Vodou. There have also been several murders of Vodou Priests/Priestesses, most recently after the earthquake. Christians were also said to have been keeping food aid for themselves and stopping it from reaching Vodou communities. In Haiti, some Christians consider Vodou a form of devil worship.[citation needed] In spite of this criticism by some Haitian Christians, many practitioners of Haitian Vodou continue to self-identify as Roman Catholic, even to the point of incorporating the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary into their services for the Lwa. These people see no contradiction between the two faiths and, in fact, view it as enriching their own faith, such people refer to themselves as good Christians.

At one time the area where we stayed outside of Cap Haitian was a luxurious tourist attraction - our hotel (which had become what I would describe as a bad Motel 6 without hot water) even had a beautiful pool with a "swim up" bar. At night, we would sit out in the (relative) cool of the evening (it was about 102 degrees during the day) and feel the breeze, as our rooms had no air conditioning. We could see the fires of the Vodou priests up on the mountainside, and hear the chants and screams and beating of drums.


*had Whag been sincerely interested in this, it was incredibly easy to find.

[tabibito]

*had Whag been sincerely interested in this, it was incredibly easy to find.

Yup - but fact finding missions aren't the stuff of Whag's posts. But there is (or at least, seems to be) a certain degree of legitimate probing of the people he encounters here.

[Cow Poke]

Yup - but fact finding missions aren't the stuff of Whag's posts. But there is (or at least, seems to be) a certain degree of legitimate probing of the people he encounters here.

I used to think that. Bless you, sir.

[Cow Poke]

I submit that if you're on a religious education mission, you should be a scholar on the failure of the previous missions.

This reminds me so clearly of my experience with the FBI seminar on counterfeit money. They had asked all the participants to bring a $20 bill, and proceeded to instruct us on every aspect of that bill - the type of paper / cloth, the security marks, "hidden" details, the serial numbering scheme -- all the things one looks for when determining that it's "real money".

Sure enough, at some point in the seminar, one of the participants (thankfully, it wasn't me) asked the instructor "will we be looking at counterfeit currency in this class?" The instructor was obviously waiting for that question, because he smiled real big and said, "No, son - that won't be necessary -- once you know the REAL thing, you'll spot a phony a mile away".

Our "mission" was, as I said, to preach Jesus - Him crucified, buried and risen again, offering Salvation to all who will receive, and to make disciples.

[One Bad Pig]

The brands of Christianity promoted by the Byzantine and Roman rites do have particular vulnerabilities that present an avenue for that sort of contamination.

I'm not sure there's much evidence to back that up, given that the majority of the world was evangelized by Byzantine/Roman rites rather than Protestants. I'm not sure extrapolation from the Caribbean region is helpful (voodoo, after all, is largely an African import to the region AFAIR).

But there is a tendency for communities such as Haiti to "add" the Christian God to their pre-existing pantheons anyway.

Any polytheistic society will have a tendency to do that.

[lilpixieofterror]

For anybody interested, here's a Wiki article* that discusses, at least in some detail, the problem with Catholicism/Vodou in Haiti.

The revolutionary Jean-Jacques Dessalines presumptively proclaimed himself head of the church in Haiti after the Haitian Revolution. He set forward to limit the jurisdiction of priests and to appoint men to vacant positions in local church communities. He himself had caused the assassination of a large number of the missionaries by failing to stop slaughter of the white colonists. This caused a schism between the Haitian state and Rome, resulting in Rome's declining to send priests into the country. There were no priests to provide guidelines for the newly established Haitian state. As a consequence, the principles of Vodou and Catholicism were merged and Catholicism (with its Vodou influences) was made the state's official religion under the leadership of Henri Christophe.

Another cause of the syncretic connection between Catholicism and Vodou was the state's ordination of Haitian men to the priesthood – a step that the Vatican would not recognize as legitimate. However, mixture of both religions shaped the way of how Haitians practice their ritual. The Haitians were going to church, but they continued to adhere to Vodou, using the rituals of the church to mask the practices of their native traditions.

There have been several killings in the past of Christian pastors, and some Christians blame those murders on the influence of Vodou. There have also been several murders of Vodou Priests/Priestesses, most recently after the earthquake. Christians were also said to have been keeping food aid for themselves and stopping it from reaching Vodou communities. In Haiti, some Christians consider Vodou a form of devil worship.[citation needed] In spite of this criticism by some Haitian Christians, many practitioners of Haitian Vodou continue to self-identify as Roman Catholic, even to the point of incorporating the Lord's Prayer and the Hail Mary into their services for the Lwa. These people see no contradiction between the two faiths and, in fact, view it as enriching their own faith, such people refer to themselves as good Christians.

At one time the area where we stayed outside of Cap Haitian was a luxurious tourist attraction - our hotel (which had become what I would describe as a bad Motel 6 without hot water) even had a beautiful pool with a "swim up" bar. At night, we would sit out in the (relative) cool of the evening (it was about 102 degrees during the day) and feel the breeze, as our rooms had no air conditioning. We could see the fires of the Vodou priests up on the mountainside, and hear the chants and screams and beating of drums.


*had Whag been sincerely interested in this, it was incredibly easy to find.

Of course and Whag seems to be unaware that Voodoo found it's way all over that area of the world (in fact, it is even found here in the states too).

[lilpixieofterror]

This reminds me so clearly of my experience with the FBI seminar on counterfeit money. They had asked all the participants to bring a $20 bill, and proceeded to instruct us on every aspect of that bill - the type of paper / cloth, the security marks, "hidden" details, the serial numbering scheme -- all the things one looks for when determining that it's "real money".

Sure enough, at some point in the seminar, one of the participants (thankfully, it wasn't me) asked the instructor "will we be looking at counterfeit currency in this class?" The instructor was obviously waiting for that question, because he smiled real big and said, "No, son - that won't be necessary -- once you know the REAL thing, you'll spot a phony a mile away".

Our "mission" was, as I said, to preach Jesus - Him crucified, buried and risen again, offering Salvation to all who will receive, and to make disciples.

GK Chesterton said in his book What's Wrong With the World that what is wrong is that we don't ask what is right.

[Cow Poke]

So, bottom line - Christians were never called to be saved without serving. Christians should be bold in their witness, which will naturally bring opposition.

In a way, a "quiet living" Christian is rather selfish - they have supposedly have found eternal life, but are not sharing it. It would be akin to a person being rescued from drowning, knowing there are other people in the water also drowning, but doing nothing about it.

So, we are bold because we are called to be bold, NOT so that it will bring persecution. As a result, however, it's likely that there will be some form of persecution - or at least discomfort - when one is bold about their Faith in Christ.

[tabibito]

So, bottom line - Christians were never called to be saved without serving. Christians should be bold in their witness, which will naturally bring opposition.

In a way, a "quiet living" Christian is rather selfish - they have supposedly have found eternal life, but are not sharing it. It would be akin to a person being rescued from drowning, knowing there are other people in the water also drowning, but doing nothing about it.

So, we are bold because we are called to be bold, NOT so that it will bring persecution. As a result, however, it's likely that there will be some form of persecution - or at least discomfort - when one is bold about their Faith in Christ.

Tis but a single talent - I shall bury it here until my master returns.

[whag]

Yes, to the antagonist, I suppose it could look like a hand wave. Same with the questions Jesus declined to answer.

No, in Jesus’s case, he didn’t hold the equivalent ideology that “evolution isn’t compatible with Christianity.” Zacharias does, hence his tactic is more suspect as a handwave.

There's no comparison in this context, and you should be ashamed of his profound lack of stones.

[whag]

I’m glad we’re back to the subject of the thread.

So, bottom line - Christians were never called to be saved without serving. Christians should be bold in their witness, which will naturally bring opposition.

Serving can mean many things. It doesn't mean bold winessing in all situations, especially in places where Christians reside in overwhelmingly Christian regions where the story’s been dulled by repetition. In such cases, “bold witnessing” is redundant.

This is misleading and a horrible thing to say to those who are already serving:

There's an old saying, "if you haven't bumped heads with the devil lately, maybe you and he are going in the same direction".

2 Tim 3:[12]*Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ll=1#post22528

You'll have to explain what it means. I assume “bumped heads with the devil” doesn’t mean something trivial.

In a way, a "quiet living" Christian is rather selfish - they have supposedly have found eternal life, but are not sharing it. It would be akin to a person being rescued from drowning, knowing there are other people in the water also drowning, but doing nothing about it.

Um, the point is that sharing it in combination with help doesn’t necessarily require a bold expression that provokes something akin to “bumping heads with Satan.” You’re not getting that. My wife quietly advertises her Christianity while serving local elderly people and sick children at LLUMC. Bold expression would be utterly obnoxious to children and elderly people who, in most cases, also consider themselves Christian. What more would you have her do other than express her faith in the way she's already doing?

So, we are bold because we are called to be bold, NOT so that it will bring persecution. As a result, however, it's likely that there will be some form of persecution - or at least discomfort - when one is bold about their Faith in Christ.

YES. Light opposition probably, but that’s not the equivalent of persecution like you're thinking. Some don't experience that and for the reasons of location and audience that I just expressed. Don’t guilt your congregation for not being bold enough when you don’t know all their situations.

[Cow Poke]

I’m glad we’re back to the subject of the thread.

Serving can mean many things. It doesn't mean bold winessing in all situations,

I don't believe anybody claimed that.

especially in places where Christians reside in overwhelmingly Christian regions where the story’s been dulled by repetition. In such cases, “bold witnessing” is redundant.

So, there are ZERO lost people in "overwhelmingly Christian regions"? And.. where, exactly, does one find these "overwhelmingly Christian regions"?

[Cow Poke]

No, in Jesus’s case, he didn’t hold the equivalent ideology that “evolution isn’t compatible with Christianity.” Zacharias does, hence his tactic is more suspect as a handwave.

There's no comparison in this context, and you should be ashamed of his profound lack of stones.

Yes, Christians should really take witnessing advice from an anti-Christian agnostic.