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Persecution as Proof of Salvation

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  • #16
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    It was recently announced at my work that a prominent male employee was going full Caitlyn Jenner. It was a complete shock to everyone, as the man showed zero indication of such leanings (he’s married with three children). In the weeks since the announcement, he’s encountered the expected awkward reactions to his “transformation.” A very good, highly respected employee, he’s now claiming that his work is being stymied by those in the company who hate him for his extreme change.

    I consider myself rather liberal, buy even I think he’s inviting it, really. I think that he should expect that awkwardness and he’s exaggerating about the level of persecution he’s enduring at work.

    A popular Christian belief exists that says all Christians should expect persecution in some form. It’s based on what Timothy said in 2 Timothy 3:12:

    “Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.”

    It made me think of self-fulfilling prophecy. If a Christian isn’t suffering some form of persecution from their beliefs and behavior (say, denying marriage licenses to homosexuals), doesn’t that invite them to go looking for “persecution”? It seems like a terrible burden to say to believers “If you’re not being persecuted, you’re not doing it right.” I can imagine a Christian living frugally and exemplifying Christian values without being persecuted.

    1) Persecution isn't 'proof' of salvation.

    2) Persecution takes many forms and, assuming the guy you are talking about is reporting correctly, you are mistaken about whether or not he has been persecuted. He has (retaliation/shunning, presumably). Whether or not he 'asked for it' doesn't negate that it is persecution, presuming that the reason is not actual justification (in which case it becomes punitive/revenge).

    For myself, I don't see a person's mental disorder as legitimate grounds for retaliation. I don't see your case at all. If it's not a disorder, why shouldn't he tell the world he is going to be mutilated? His wife and kids would certainly have grounds for complaint in either case, but not coworkers in the latter.

    Again for myself, I'd say he should be treated professionally in the workplace, but that in personal interaction, he has no right to expect others to conform to his beliefs (or in this case, delusions).

    3) Unless you believe that gays weren't morally entitled to marriage, I don't see how you can make the rest of this case. If, as I recall, you do believe that, then you would agree that denying it is a form of persecution, would you not? Gays certainly haven't been subject to wide spread violent persecution yet the argument has been made repeatedly that they are persecuted to a degree. If it's true for them, then it would be likewise true for Christians who have suffered whatever adverse reaction from someone or group for their beliefs.

    For myself, I don't think mild persecution is something we should get upset about - but I also don't think it should be tolerated in any case. No causing harm to people or their property or livelihoods just because we don't like something about them.

    And no, fussing when both parties are in it, does NOT constitute 'persecution'. This thread, silly as it is to me, is not persecution.

    4) I've had people react adversely to me because of my faith. I wouldn't call it persecution but that may be a question of degree - and a greater testament to how powerfully Judeo-Christian ethics still rule in the US.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      Or when somebody says "Accept Christ as Savior and all your problems will disappear".
      Aww darn... I suppose that means I shouldn't expect a call back from the nice Nigerian banker I just sent money to, huh?
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
        And no, fussing when both parties are in it, does NOT constitute 'persecution'. This thread, silly as it is to me, is not persecution.

        4) I've had people react adversely to me because of my faith. I wouldn't call it persecution but that may be a question of degree - and a greater testament to how powerfully Judeo-Christian ethics still rule in the US.
        Exactly - when we see Christians having their heads sawed off, or raped and murdered, or sold into slavery, or driven from their homelands like cattle -- that's persecution, and puts me in mind of Paul's "light affliction".

        For our momentary light affliction is producing for us an absolutely incomparable eternal weight of glory. 2 Cor 4:17
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Teallaura
          I am not sure how you manage to come to that conclusion for even the first guy - someone holds a gun in your face you are usually going to try really hard to say what he wants to hear.
          Paul’s point was that godly living invites persecution by heathens and heathen governments. It was not about dying for one’s religion in a context like this but something more protracted than that. It was about provoking non-Christians through godly living and enduring when they persecute you.

          Don’t get it twisted. This is about a suicidal nutcase arbitrarily killing Christians whose quality of faith he clearly didn’t know about.

          Originally posted by Teallaura
          But the fact that there were multiple people killed having heard what the 'wrong' answer was and then giving that same answer themselves says a lot for their loyalty to their Savior.
          That could be the case. Just don’t make assumptions about those who’d lie to an idiot gunman in order to last long enough to stop him.

          Originally posted by Teallaura
          Who would you have done that for?
          If I was a Christian, I’d probably lie in order to figure out a way to stop him and save lives. The last thing I’d be thinking is that Jesus might perceive me as “disloyal” for thinking rationally in order to subdue the imbecile. Apparently you’d judge me for that?

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          • #20
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            Paul’s point was that godly living invites persecution by heathens and heathen governments.
            That's a long way from "proof of salvation".
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              That's a long way from "proof of salvation".
              Yes, he was talking about the long form. And persecution may never come in the context of a well-lived Christian life today. The Christians who advance the idea that your boldness is somehow lacking if you're not persecuted are wrong. That's my point.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by whag View Post
                Yes, he was talking about the long form. And persecution may never come in the context of a well-lived Christian life today.
                Depends on your definition of "well-lived". If a Christian is pursuing "the great commission", he's not just "hunkered down" - he's actively propagating the gospel, which can be quite offensive.

                The Christians who advance the idea that your boldness is somehow lacking if you're not persecuted are wrong. That's my point.
                This would probably be a whole 'nuther thread, but a "normal Christian", particularly in our country, seems today to be defined as somebody who....

                yeah, that's a whole 'nuther thread.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                  I apologize, Whag. I wrongly assumed you actually wanted a discussion instead of just being an arrogant ass. Silly, silly me!
                  I apologize for this, Whag - it was uncalled for.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    I apologize for this, Whag - it was uncalled for.
                    No problem. I'm sorry if I triggered it by saying the Oregon example was a "dumb" example of persecution. I meant to say it's a stretch compared to my point in the OP.

                    I'd like to stay focused on people who abuse Paul's point and make un-persecuted Christians feel doubtful about their salvation because they're currently not undergoing any persecution whatsoever.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by whag View Post
                      No problem. I'm sorry if I triggered it by saying the Oregon example was a "dumb" example of persecution. I meant to say it's a stretch compared to my point in the OP.


                      I'd like to stay focused on people who abuse Paul's point and make un-persecuted Christians feel doubtful about their salvation because they're currently not undergoing any persecution whatsoever.
                      Well, sure, because Paul never says or implies that said persecution will be severe OR constant. I do believe, however, that Christians who are "secret agents" are FAR less likely to encounter persecution than those who are faithfully following the great commission.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I'm not convinced that the statements made by Jesus or Paul necessarily have to be taken beyond the immediate contexts they were said in. The original hearers were being warned of the persecution they would face for doing the right thing. This doesn't seem to constitute a promise that the same conditions would always apply the same way.
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I'm not convinced that the statements made by Jesus or Paul necessarily have to be taken beyond the immediate contexts they were said in. The original hearers were being warned of the persecution they would face for doing the right thing. This doesn't seem to constitute a promise that the same conditions would always apply the same way.
                          And, particularly, this was addressed to Timothy.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post




                            Well, sure, because Paul never says or implies that said persecution will be severe OR constant. I do believe, however, that Christians who are "secret agents" are FAR less likely to encounter persecution than those who are faithfully following the great commission.
                            What do you mean by secret agents?

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by whag View Post
                              What do you mean by secret agents?
                              I believe that when we are called by Jesus, we are called to be 'fishers of men' - to advance the cause of Christ. To share the gospel. As opposed to people who "get saved" to live a quiet life of "minding my own business", trusting that their "testimony" will cause others to become Christ followers.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                I wrongly assumed you actually wanted a discussion
                                Whag loves framing his OPs as though he's attempting honest and open dialogue, but that's never been his motivation for posting here. He's only here looking for a fight, and he's said as much in previous posts. He believes the only reason for posting at Theologyweb, and primarily in the Apologetics section is so that Christians and anti-Christians can really get into it. Sort of verbally beat each other up. But, for whatever reason, he also hates it when his primary motivation for posting these sorts of threads is exposed, or exposed too soon I suppose. If you point this out he claims you are having what he calls a "whack attack". It's all very odd in my opinion. I'd rather he just put his cards on the table instead of go through with the pretense.

                                But anyways, you were right the first time, he doesn't really want a discussion, or at least, not the sort of discussion that one might have thought he was asking for in his OP.

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