Persecution as Proof of Salvation

[Adrift]

Which is one of the reasons I really despise those who promote what is often called the prosperity gospel (a.k.a., the health and wealth gospel).

I'm not a big fan of most of the name it and claim it stuff either, but I do believe that it is God's desire for his children to be both healthy and prosperous, and I think there's plenty in scripture that backs that up*. I think one can go too far the other way as well into the "Woe is me, I bear such a heavy cross" direction too. I also think that its possible for one to be both healthy and prosperous and persecuted for one's ideology or beliefs.






* That's not to say that this will always be the case, or that God promises it will always be the case.

[Adrift]

someone holds a gun in your face you are usually going to try really hard to say what he wants to hear.

Yeah, I can't really imagine what world one lives in where they think a gun in the face for your beliefs, even a gun held by a madman, isn't a form of persecution. Whag's got a strange definition of persecution.

[Adrift]

Or when somebody says "Accept Christ as Savior and all your problems will disappear".

Right, but accepting Christ as your savior may in fact put your problems in an entirely different perspective. It's unfortunate, though, that there are those who are planted on rocky soil who don't have deep roots, and expect never to have problems again, and as soon as problems or persecution arises they fall away.

[Cow Poke]

I'm not a big fan of most of the name it and claim it stuff either, but I do believe that it is God's desire for his children to be both healthy and prosperous, and I think there's plenty in scripture that backs that up. I think one can go too far the other way as well into the "Woe is me, I bear such a heavy cross" direction as well. I also think that its possible for one to be both healthy and prosperous and persecuted for one's ideology or beliefs.

I have, at various times in my life, been quite blessed financially, which gave me much greater opportunity to be a blessing to others. In fact, I firmly believe that when we are a blessing to others, God "blesses us back".

The ministry of Jesus was assisted by rich people.

[Cow Poke]

Right, but accepting Christ as your savior may in fact put your problems in an entirely different perspective.

That would be a far better approach.

It's unfortunate, though, that there are those who are planted on rocky soil who don't have deep roots, and expect never to have problems again, and as soon as problems or persecution arises they fall away.

Which is exactly why I believe Church family is so important -- to help new converts understand that there will, indeed, be challenges, but we have Christ and each other to face them.

[whag]

I believe that when we are called by Jesus, we are called to be 'fishers of men' - to advance the cause of Christ. To share the gospel.

I have a few thoughts on that in the context of the OP. There is nothing inherently “persecution inviting” about the act of sharing the gospel. It happens all the time, and rarely does it end in anything more aggressive than “Thank you for the pamphlet.” That might be different in some countries, but that has much more to do with established dysfunctional governments, culture, and sociologies than it has to do with inherent offensiveness of the gospel. All religions and sects experience persecution on some level, in other words. The middle east and India are rife with conflict between religions and factions.

As opposed to people who "get saved" to live a quiet life of "minding my own business", trusting that their "testimony" will cause others to become Christ followers.

What you call “quietly minding your own business” might actually be more effective in a demography such as Uganda where bold, Bible-based preaching happens everywhere.

One must also consider that a huge amount of education is required to effectively preach. Anyone can do the Campus Crusade for Christ spiel, but few are prepared for the harder conversations. In those cases, it might be best to quietly advertise your faith, do good works, and keep the fishing reel in its case.

[Adrift]

I have, at various times in my life, been quite blessed financially, which gave me much greater opportunity to be a blessing to others. In fact, I firmly believe that when we are a blessing to others, God "blesses us back".

The ministry of Jesus was assisted by rich people.

As you would say, EGGzactly. It takes money and resources to publish the Gospel and evangelize. This is something we see even in Christ's ministry. He had wealthy patrons who helped support the ministry financially. Of course, God is also able to do much with little (which we also see in Christ's ministry).

[Cow Poke]

I'm not a big fan of most of the name it and claim it stuff either, but I do believe that it is God's desire for his children to be both healthy and prosperous, and I think there's plenty in scripture that backs that up*.

My current Church had been through quite a challenge before I became their pastor. Attendance was way down, finances had dried up - they were paying bills from savings, and running out of savings. One of the things they had done to "stretch their money" was to cut back on missions giving, and assistance to local needs.

When I got there, one of my first goals was to increase mission giving and be more involved in local needs. That's where we got involved in the mission project helping the guy who needed a liver transplant, and whose house needed to be built because he fell gravely ill shortly after framing it out. I believe God blessed us through that. Finances turned around in a major way.

On the morning that I announced that our friend needed $9,700 to get into the hospital (drugs, copays, change of insurance, premiums, etc), a new member approached me after the service and discretely handed me a check for $10,000, told me "get that man in the hospital tomorrow", and told me to let him know if any more money was needed. Imagine my joy when I sat that afternoon with the man's wife, and handed her a check for $10,000.

This same man heard us talking about a multi-purpose building we were thinking about, because we have outgrown our current facility, and he wants to meet me on Monday morning to discuss financing that. He had already given me $100,000 for general fund "because God blessed him that week".

And, yes, I had the talk with him about "no strings attached" and my reservation that money often is used to buy influence. He insisted he wants to remain anonymous, and that all he wants is for Jesus to be lifted up.

Praise God for rich people!

[Cow Poke]

I have a few thoughts on that in the context of the OP. There is nothing inherently “persecution inviting” about the act of sharing the gospel.

Perhaps not so much in this country, but in many places in the world, it is an open invitation to severe persecution and death. I have evangelized in parts of the world where people will explain to me that "it's no big deal for one of our people to profess faith in Christ, because one can always change one's mind - but when they get baptized - that is seen as an absolute commitment to Christ that is irreversible, and subjects that person to persecution".

It happens all the time, and rarely does it end in anything more aggressive than “Thank you for the pamphlet.” That might be different in some countries,

Paul was writing this from one of "those countries".

but that has much more to do with established dysfunctional governments, culture, and sociologies than it has to do with inherent offensiveness of the gospel.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

All religions and sects experience persecution on some level, in other words. The middle east and India are rife with conflict between religions and factions.

And there is a growing hostility to Christianity in the US.

What you call “quietly minding your own business” might actually be more effective in a demography such as Uganda where bold, Bible-based preaching happens everywhere.

So, let's just rip out those pages of the Bible where it mentions that we are to advance the cause of Christ, baptizing all nations and making them disciples?

One must also consider that a huge amount of education is required to effectively preach.

I couldn't disagree more. When the Holy Spirit is involved, some of the most effective personal witness I have seen comes from people who are "unlearned and ignorant" - such as were the disciples of Christ.

Anyone can do the Campus Crusade for Christ spiel, but few are prepared for the harder conversations. In those cases, it might be best to quietly advertise your faith, do good works, and keep the fishing reel in its case.

Can you point to that instruction in the Bible?

[KingsGambit]

There is a time for the "live a quiet life" style of Christianity. 1 Thessalonians 4:11, for example...

[Adrift]

I believe that when we are called by Jesus, we are called to be 'fishers of men' - to advance the cause of Christ. To share the gospel. As opposed to people who "get saved" to live a quiet life of "minding my own business", trusting that their "testimony" will cause others to become Christ followers.

Yep. What a lot of people don't seem to get, even other so-called Christians, is that being a Christian is not a hobby. It's not that thing you're into on the side. It's who you are. It's what shapes your entire worldview, and everything that you think, say, and do, and a lot of people just cannot get that. It's completely alien to their mind. Social ostracization is something real that most Christians I know go through, even in "Christian" countries like the US (maybe especially so). You will get weird stares, and people avoiding you, and even mocking you for praising Jesus publicly for something wonderful, praying or reading your Bible to yourself in public, even just talking about your faith, or about Christianity in general. And I'm not talking about holding a sign on your neck on a street corner, or shouting "JESUS" and pushing a Bible in people's faces. I'm not even talking about that one super-Christian at your job who acts like you're not Christian enough if you don't talk Christianese, and act all obnoxious like him to your fellow co-workers. I'm talking about just being a normal and decent individual who isn't afraid to live their faith on their sleeve. It makes people very uncomfortable.

Yet, you can go to a college football game, and it's not at all weird for people to paint their body in their teams colors, and scream and holler like a maniac in freezing temperatures. People boldly declare their favorite team, or their political affiliation all the time in public, and that's considered normal water cooler talk, even if you get into an argument with someone from the opposite side of the spectrum, it's all considered very...okay.

I think that social ostracization for your religious beliefs is not necessarily a form of persecution, especially if you're being a boor about it, but as NT scholars like John Elliott point out in 1 Peter, Christians can expect and have endured social persecution.

Source: Conflict, Community, and Honor: 1 Peter in Social-Scientific Perspective by John H. Elliott

These followers of Jesus the Christ were singled out and mocked with a discriminatory label, "Christians" [Christ-lackeys] (4:16). They were reviled (3:9) by ignorant nonbelievers (2:15, 3:15; see 1:14) and unjustly slandered (2:12, 3:16) as immoral or criminal wrongdoers (2:12, 14; 3:17; 4:15). They were threatened with harm (3:13), called to account (3:15), and reproached for their allegiance to Jesus the Christ (4:14). They and their God were blasphemed as a result of their termination of previous social associations and ways of behavior (4:3-4). Instead of an improvement in their condition and lot in life, which they had expected their adherence to the Jesus movement to bring about, they seem to have been "blessed" only with grief, sorrow, and suffering (1:6; 2:19-20; 3:14, 17; 4:1, 15, 19). With minority and sectarian groups like the Petrine community, hostile pressures from outside the group can have a debilitating effect upon self-confidence, harmony, and cohesion within the community. Suffering too can have not only a personal but also a social effect. The suffering experienced by the recipients of 1 Peter may have led not only to individual disillusionment and despair but also to in-group friction (2:1), disorder (2:11-3:12) and an everyone-for-him-or-herself kind of attitude (5:1-5).

One alternative to this state of affairs was for the Christ-followers to yield to the pressures of social conformity. The urgency that characterizes the exhortation of 1 Peter suggests an awareness or fear that some had already begun to take this option. The end effect of such a step upon this still nascent sectarian movement, however, would have spelled disaster. For it would have entailed the sacrifice of those very religious and social features that made the believing community what it distinctively was: a community of people shaped by a common experience of God's universal grace manifested in Jesus the Christ and united in a common faith, an exclusive obedience, and an uncompromising commitment to the brotherhood.

The letter of 1 Peter proposed a different course: Stand firm and fight! Resist and win! Remember who and what you are by God's grace-his elect and holy household. Close the ranks of your households and live such attractive, honorable, and God-pleasing lives that even your detractors will one day join you in the glorification of God (2:11-12).

© Copyright Original Source

[whag]

There is a time for the "live a quiet life" style of Christianity. 1 Thessalonians 4:11, for example...

Thank you! My wife does this to great effect, and that's all I'm saying.

[whag]

Perhaps not so much in this country, but in many places in the world, it is an open invitation to severe persecution and death. I have evangelized in parts of the world where people will explain to me that "it's no big deal for one of our people to profess faith in Christ, because one can always change one's mind - but when they get baptized - that is seen as an absolute commitment to Christ that is irreversible, and subjects that person to persecution".

Yes, and like I said, that’s rare and has more to do with dysfunctional theocratic societies than the gospel itself. In some places, it’s just as dangerous to be a Sikh or Shiite Muslim.

Paul was writing this from one of "those countries".

YES. And that’s precisely why it’s a stretch to carry his words over to modern Christians, effectively implying that if they have never experienced persecution, they’re not doing it right.

And there is a growing hostility to Christianity in the US.

There might be growing ridicule of fundamentalist expression of religion, but there’s not growing hostility to Christianity. All faiths from Scientology to Mormonism to Islam are equally goofed on.

So, let's just rip out those pages of the Bible where it mentions that we are to advance the cause of Christ, baptizing all nations and making them disciples?

No, you just must acknowledge the ambiguity in that command. Does it mean that Protestants should convert Catholics in Spain and Latin America? Well that’s happening. Does it mean you go door to door in America, like the Mormons do? That’s happening, too, and winning few souls. One must consider the context. Sometimes minimally advertising one’s faith in a certain demography is what’s called for.

I couldn't disagree more. When the Holy Spirit is involved, some of the most effective personal witness I have seen comes from people who are "unlearned and ignorant" - such as were the disciples of Christ.

Isn’t the Holy Spirit always involved in evangelism? =/

I’ve seen evangelistic encounters end disastrously for some who weren’t better equipped to address the subtopics of theism required for effective presentation. No, you MUST be smart if you’re going to share the gospel. Anyone can do the Jack Chick routine.

Can you point to that instruction in the Bible?

The Bible was written in a time that didn’t anticipate the saturation of Christianity in culture, which is precisely what we’re seeing now. Like I said, sometimes minimally advertising one’s faith in a certain demography is the best approach in church-soaked regions that have heard the gospel story ad nauseaum.

[Cow Poke]

Isn’t the Holy Spirit always involved in evangelism? =/

Not in my opinion, no. Often, it's personality based, with people following a man. It seriously does not surprise me that you don't understand this distinction.

I’ve seen evangelistic encounters end disastrously for some who weren’t better equipped to address the subtopics of theism required for effective presentation.

Probably because they were operating in the flesh.

No, you MUST be smart

So, now we're changing it to "smart" instead of "a huge amount of education is required to effectively preach"?

if you’re going to share the gospel.

You're just flat out wrong about this. Let's see -- I share the gospel on a regular basis, and I see changed lives and "fruit that remains". Your experience is.....?

Anyone can do the Jack Chick routine.

OK, I'll use your line from earlier - that's dumb.

[Adrift]

Not in my opinion, no. Often, it's personality based, with people following a man. It seriously does not surprise me that you don't understand this distinction.

Yeah, the Holy Spirit works in coordination with people. It doesn't do the evangelizing itself. It doesn't float around and possess people. If people were not needed in the evangelization process then there wouldn't be any need for the Great Commission.

So, now we're changing it to "smart" instead of "a huge amount of education is required to effectively preach"?

You're just flat out wrong about this. Let's see -- I share the gospel on a regular basis, and I see changed lives and "fruit that remains". Your experience is.....?

Agreed. I know some people who have a very simple, yet very devout faith. They aren't wordy, and they don't win people over with intellect. They win people over by showing that they truly care, that they truly love, in both their words and actions. They spread the Gospel message by touching people's hearts. Is there a need for an intellectual type of Christianity? Certainly. Should there be more of a focus within Christianity on theology, and philosophy, and history, and science? Absolutely. But is that the only thing that people respond to? Not at all.

1 Cor. 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so that I can remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away everything I own, and if I give over my body in order to boast, but do not have love, I receive no benefit.

You can debate theology or apologetics with someone till you're blue in the face, but the sort of evangelism that I've seen most often work in someone's life is when you put aside a lot of the intellectual stuff and get to the real person to person, soul to soul type of stuff. When you are able to pinpoint that hurt in them, or that void, or that issue that keeps them awake at night and speak to that. I think the intellectual side of things really hits its stride after that's been dealt with. Too often people become Christians for emotional or a spiritual reasons, but then don't have the knowledge or intellectual wherewithal to withstand skepticism and heresy.

OK, I'll use your line from earlier - that's dumb.

It's probably fair (and sad) to say that Jack Chick has won over a fair amount of people with his dumb tracts. Of course, that's not at all the type of simple faith evangelism that you're talking about anyways. Just a silly red herring.