Can Christians Achieve Sinlessness in This Life?

[Paula]

In the "What are the essentials of the genuine Christian faith?" thread a discussion arose regarding whether or not Christians can achieve sinlessness in this life. I had thought the orthodox position was that, while we do undergo sanctification throughout life, it is at the resurrection that God will transform us so we are entirely without sin. However, the opposing argument is that it is achievable in this life and that this position is grounded in scripture.

So my question is:

Is sinlessness an achievable state in this life?

and

What reasons do you have for your position (especially evidence from scripture)?

[seanD]

So my question is:

Is sinlessness an achievable state in this life?

and

What reasons do you have for your position (especially evidence from scripture)?

When scripture is interpreted honestly, no.

Evidence: how many Christians do you know turn the other cheek to their enemies? There are literally dozens of examples like that.

The sad thing is is that instead of Christians admitting this, they'll instead find different ways to interpret these passages or argue that the passage doesn't really mean what it says it means.

[tabibito]

There is "do" and there is "can" - the difference is not trivial.

[Teallaura]

I believe it is possible to achieve Christian perfection, but it is rare to do so.

I'll try to come back with a more complete answer later.

[Paula]

There is "do" and there is "can" - the difference is not trivial.

In this case I mean can--I am referring to whether it is possible to become sinless in life. If one answers yes then there are some distinctions that can be made:

1) Yes Christians can and they must or else they won't be saved (with perhaps a few allowances made for sudden deaths or other similar situations)
2) Yes Christians can and they should strive towards this and many or some or a few will achieve it
3) Yes Christians can in the sense it's technically possible but it's highly improbable

and probably some other possibilities.

I believe it is possible to achieve Christian perfection, but it is rare to do so.

I'll try to come back with a more complete answer later.

Certainly, I would be interested in your perspective on this.

[KingsGambit]

According to Roger E. Olson's The Story of Christian Theology, the idea of Christian perfectionism gained a lot of popularity with John Wesley, and it was a novel view at the time he adopted it.

[Paula]

According to Roger E. Olson's The Story of Christian Theology, the idea of Christian perfectionism gained a lot of popularity with John Wesley, and it was a novel view at the time he adopted it.

That's something I think I have heard as well--that the concept of Christian perfection in life was promoted by Wesley. Now if it was a novel view that does put some doubt in it being in the Bible as it doesn't make sense that this view would be lost for centuries (although it certainly isn't impossible).

Now one thing I do wonder about is that if this is a doctrine that is in the Bible then we should see evidence of it being taught by the early Church Fathers. I am going to have to do some research on this and certainly if anyone has any supporting evidence from the first and second centuries I would be glad to see it.

[KingsGambit]

That's something I think I have heard as well--that the concept of Christian perfection in life was promoted by Wesley. Now if it was a novel view that does put some doubt in it being in the Bible as it doesn't make sense that this view would be lost for centuries (although it certainly isn't impossible).

Now one thing I do wonder about is that if this is a doctrine that is in the Bible then we should see evidence of it being taught by the early Church Fathers. I am going to have to do some research on this and certainly if anyone has any supporting evidence from the first and second centuries I would be glad to see it.

There were lines of thought along those lines in the early church. The Shepherd of Hermas, which came very close to making it into the canon, taught that only one serious sin would be forgiven after baptism. Tertullian thought even this was too lenient and called the book "The Shepherd of the Adulterers". The upshot of this was that many people refused baptism until their deathbeds.

[mossrose]

I grew up in a Wesleyan based denomination, and was taught that after the "second work of grace", Christians don't sin anymore. They have indeed achieved perfection.

I have a letter from my grandfather, written to me because I could not reconcile that doctrine with what I read in scripture, where he states that "we do not sin. We make mistakes, and errors in judgment, but we do not sin". My response to that is, why did I observe, every single Sunday, the same "perfect" Christians making their way down the aisle to the altar to confess their "sins".

It does not compute with scripture. When we become believers, we are freed from the penalty of sin, and sin has no more power over us. But, we are still living in the presence of sin in this world. We stare it in the face every day. It is always there to tempt us and to cause us to stumble.

Paul did not achieve perfection in this life. He grieved over his inability to do that which he would do, while doing that which he would not do. None of the other apostles or any other believer achieved perfection while alive.

We left that church. Because of that particular doctrine, and another that we don't need to discuss here because it is off topic.

So, my answer to the question asked in the op is, "no".

[tabibito]

Paul did not achieve perfection in this life. He grieved over his inability to do that which he would do, while doing that which he would not do. None of the other apostles or any other believer achieved perfection while alive.

Paul wrote the letter to the Romans in the early part of his ministry. At a minimum, even if (and it is one huge "if") the second section of Romans 7 was a reference to himself, there is a contrast drawn between that self and the people he was addressing.

Romans 8:3b,4

He condemned sin in the flesh, ₄that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

underpins

Romans 6:6

our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

contrasting

Romans 7:14

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

bundled together by

Romans 8:1

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Even acknowledging that some translations do not include the caveat, it remains that the second section of Romans 7 does not have application to the mature Christian. (Though it does point to a person being saved even before he has reached maturity.)

And this, written early in Paul's ministry, even if it refers to Paul himself, does not show that the problem was expected to be permanent.

Romans 6:12

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

1 Corinthians 15:34

Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.

The question arises, just how many passages to the contrary can the second section of Romans 7 be said to negate, and in the bargain, just how many of the declarations of Christ himself?

[One Bad Pig]

I believe it is possible to achieve Christian perfection, but it is rare to do so.

I'll try to come back with a more complete answer later.

Those who approach Christian perfection tend to be the most aware of how far they fall short of it.

[bling]

[Scrawly]

I think Christian's can deceive themselves into believing they have achieved sinlessness - if their lives are lived in a serene setting away from people/relationships, society, serious responsibilities and so forth. In other words, one's perception can easily get distorted when living in a bubble.

Often these Christian's tend to take verses out of context to support their case.

[KingsGambit]

My theory is that belief that one has attained sinless perfection correlates with the sin of pride.

[Pentecost]

I believe that seeking sinless perfection encourages intentionally seeking after holiness over and above the assumption of its impossibility. Jesus instructed people to go and sin no more, and Paul spoke of no longer being a slave to sin, but instead a slave to righteousness, assuming (as I prefer to) that Scripture is accurately recording their teachings, and that these men are trustworthy, then I see little reason to doubt the attainability of real holiness empowered by the Holy Spirit. Something that I hold in tension to this is that even as our minds are renewed, we have a heart of flesh and not of stone, and a new Spirit has been put into us, our bodies are still corrupt, and will not be restored until we receive our Heavenly bodies per 1 Corinthians 15, so some form of sin should be expected. I am not settled, but where I sit right now I believe that we are free of intentional sin (probably at salvation, although I am not excluding the possibility that it is related to Wesley's second work; but I definitely do not identify it with the Pentecostal baptism of the Spirit), but may sin unintentionally, such as fits of passion producing violence, or perhaps (forgive lewdness) nocturnal emissions and accompanying dreams for the celibate, another example may be uncharitable thoughts that come unbidden. My idea for intentional sin as opposed to unintentional sin is based out of Leviticus where rules are provided for offerings for unintentional sins.