The Beauty Of Determinism!

[seer]

Really Tass? Tell me where I misquoted the paper. Be specific.

Does moral behavior draw on a belief in free will? Two experiments examined whether inducing participants to believe that human behavior is predetermined would encourage cheating. In Experiment 1, participants read either text that encouraged a belief in determinism (i.e., that portrayed behavior as the consequence of environmental and genetic factors) or neutral text. Exposure to the deterministic message increased cheating on a task in which participants could passively allow a flawed computer program to reveal answers to mathematical problems that they had been instructed to solve themselves. Moreover, increased cheating behavior was mediated by decreased belief in free will. In Experiment 2, participants who read deterministic statements cheated by overpaying themselves for performance on a cognitive task; participants who read statements endorsing free will did not. These findings suggest that the debate over free will has societal, as well as scientific and theoretical, implications.

Tell me Tass, where did I misquote or misunderstand?

[seer]

It may be a lie, or it may just be misconstrued. I can see how some who come to accept determinism might become less moral, probably wouldn't be the current atheists though. As a matter of fact, I think thats the reason why god was created in the first place.

Jim, Jerky Butt is fibbing again:


From the study:

http://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/91974.pdf

GENERAL DISCUSSION

In two experiments, we found that weakening free-will beliefs
reliably increased cheating. We measured cheating in Experiment
1 using a passive cheating opportunity. To avoid cheating,
participants had to actively prevent the answer to an arithmetic
problem from appearing on the computer screen. This scenario
is perhaps akin to accidentally receiving too much change from a
store clerk but not returning the extra money. In Experiment 2,
we measured active cheating. We found that when participants
were allowed to pay themselves for each correct answer on a
difficult cognitive test, those who read statements promoting
a deterministic worldview paid themselves more (in effect,
claimed to have answered more items correctly) than did those
who read other kinds of statements; moreover, participants who
read deterministic statements and who paid themselves gave
themselves more money than was earned by participants who
were paid for their true performance...

...The fact that brief exposure to a message asserting that there is
no such thing as free will can increase both passive and active
cheating raises the concern that advocating a deterministic
worldview could undermine moral behaviorThe present findings raise the genuine concern that widespread
encouragement of a deterministic worldview may have
the inadvertent consequence of encouraging cheating behavior.
Consistent with this view are recent trends suggesting both a
decrease in beliefs in personal control and an increase in
cheating.

[The Thinker]

You know this is interesting. The actual belief would not have consequences, but the brain chemicals that actually cause the consequences. Our conscious beliefs would not make any difference (since they have no real influence).

The actual belief would have physical correlates and they would influence behavior accordingly to the nature of those beliefs, so it would.

That is fair, except like I said in the OP:

You know, this theory does have its advantages. Whenever the atheist does something immoral, unkind or untoward - well no big deal, why feel guilty? You couldn't help it, you were determined.

It also has advantages to think that god will forgive you for all your sins, so hey, no big deal if you murdered a few people.

[seer]

The actual belief would have physical correlates and they would influence behavior accordingly to the nature of those beliefs, so it would.

I'm not sure what that means Thinker, I was sure you said that thoughts and beliefs played no causal role. Are you changing your mind?

It also has advantages to think that god will forgive you for all your sins, so hey, no big deal if you murdered a few people.

Funny, most people I know became more moral (like myself) after they came to faith. But the Christian could not justify his behavior, even if forgiven. If you are really determined to think and act as you do then that is perfect justification for any behavior - how could it not be - you had no control. Having said that, I did know Calvinists who were deterministic who seemed to fluff off bad behavior.

[The Thinker]

I'm not sure what that means Thinker, I was sure you said that thoughts and beliefs played no causal role. Are you changing your mind?

Thoughts and beliefs are caused by physical things in the brain. The content of those beliefs pertain to certain physical things in the brain. That can influence your behavior. So not changing my mind on anything.

Have you changed your mind on the incoherency of libertarian free will, or do you have an argument that it is coherent?

Funny, most people I know became more moral (like myself) after they came to faith. But the Christian could not justify his behavior, even if forgiven. If you are really determined to think and act as you do then that is perfect justification for any behavior - how could it not be - you had no control. Having said that, I did know Calvinists who were deterministic who seemed to fluff off bad behavior.

Unfortunately, the more religious a society is, the higher the crime tends to be and lower the standards of living are. This is shown not only true in the US but all over the world. The poorest states/countries are the most religious, and the richest states/countries are often the least religions. Same goes for countries around the world. So becoming religious certainly has no strong statistical evidence showing it really makes people more moral. Otherwise, we'd see correlations with high religiosity with high living standards and low crime.

And by the way, the free will/no free will debate has nothing to do with atheism or materialism. I can fully grant you that a soul exists for the sake of argument and libertarian free will is still logically impossible. So theism or belief in the soul does nothing to rescue libertarian free will. Nothing.

[seer]

Thoughts and beliefs are caused by physical things in the brain. The content of those beliefs pertain to certain physical things in the brain. That can influence your behavior. So not changing my mind on anything.

Yes, but it is the physical things in the brain that can influence, not the actual conscious beliefs - correct?

Have you changed your mind on the incoherency of libertarian free will, or do you have an argument that it is coherent?

Let me hit this in a round about way. Quantum entanglement, where two formerly entangled particles mirror each others movement instantly at a distance, has pretty much been proven (see link below). And there is no physical connection between these particles. Tell me Thinker how is this possible? And it seems that Einstein's hidden variables has been pretty much debunked with this latest finding. How is this coherent? I do have a point here.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...hest-test-yet/

Unfortunately, the more religious a society is, the higher the crime tends to be and lower the standards of living are. This is shown not only true in the US but all over the world. The poorest states/countries are the most religious, and the richest states/countries are often the least religions. Same goes for countries around the world. So becoming religious certainly has no strong statistical evidence showing it really makes people more moral. Otherwise, we'd see correlations with high religiosity with high living standards and low crime.

That is just silly. To many variables, remember Muslims are determinists, as are some Christians - still. But I can lead you to dozens and dozen of people I personally know where the Christian faith clearly produced better moral behavior. Including myself. As a matter of fact, I never met, in 25 years, a person who became morally worse after they came to a genuine faith in Christ.

So theism or belief in the soul does nothing to rescue libertarian free will. Nothing.

Really? So if thoughts and beliefs had a real effect, if I was more that just physical, and had a will that could control the physical - that would not help? Why not?

[The Thinker]

Yes, but it is the physical things in the brain that can influence, not the actual conscious beliefs - correct?

Yes, because everything in consciousness is caused by a physical thing going on in the brain.

Let me hit this in a round about way. Quantum entanglement, where two formerly entangled particles mirror each others movement instantly at a distance, has pretty much been proven (see link below). And there is no physical connection between these particles. Tell me Thinker how is this possible? And it seems that Einstein's hidden variables has been pretty much debunked with this latest finding. How is this coherent? I do have a point here.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...hest-test-yet/

Actually the particles are still entangled when one is measured and the other instantly changes. How is that possible? Non-locality. There is a universal wave function. It is all described in quantum theory and there is nothing incoherent about it. The appearance of incoherency is based on false assumptions about reality that we held, like locality. Nothing about this makes the soul any more plausible, LFW is still incoherent because it violates the law of non-contradiction, and souls are rule by by quantum mechanics. You have no point here.

That is just silly. To many variables, remember Muslims are determinists, as are some Christians - still. But I can lead you to dozens and dozen of people I personally know where the Christian faith clearly produced better moral behavior. Including myself. As a matter of fact, I never met, in 25 years, a person who became morally worse after they came to a genuine faith in Christ.

Ha! You base your view here entirely on personal anecdotes. That's a classical bad move. The statistics show low religiosity correlated with low crime and high standards of living. So no, being a Christian or being a theist does not make society better. It may make certain individuals behave better. But no one denies that.

Really? So if thoughts and beliefs had a real effect, if I was more that just physical, and had a will that could control the physical - that would not help? Why not?

Because libertarian free will itself is incoherent. You already know this.

[Tassman]

Really Tass? Tell me where I misquoted the paper. Be specific.



Tell me Tass, where did I misquote or misunderstand?

The dishonesty of your quote-mining is that you cherry-pick quotes from science you think, usually erroneously, support your religious agenda and dismiss whatever does not support your religious agenda. This is doubly dishonest in that you consistently demonstrate your contempt for science, except where you think it supports your presuppositions. As well, you rarely answer questions and do not attempt to support your position other than with a god-did-it response. You demand verified evidence from your opponents but exempt yourself on the fatuous basis that you're "not bound by the laws of science". Can you see the dishonesty of your approach?

[Tassman]

Yes, but it is the physical things in the brain that can influence, not the actual conscious beliefs - correct?

Consciousness is not separate from the material brain. This belief is dualism and it's utterly unsupported by scientific evidence.

But I can lead you to dozens and dozen of people I personally know where the Christian faith clearly produced better moral behavior. Including myself. As a matter of fact, I never met, in 25 years, a person who became morally worse after they came to a genuine faith in Christ.

Your argument fails. Individual Christians may become more moral, i.e. when they're not being judgemental, hypocritical or trying to impose their views via legislation on everyone else. But the evidence shows that the non-religious secular countries tend to have the lowest crime rates and tend to rank higher on the UN's Human Development Index. Conversely the US, with it's high levels of Christian religiosity, is statistically the most violent, unjust and most inequitable country in the developed world. So much for Christianity!

Really? So if thoughts and beliefs had a real effect, if I was more than just physical, and had a will that could control the physical - that would not help? Why not?

But you're NOT "more than just physical", that's the point.

[seer]

The dishonesty of your quote-mining is that you cherry-pick quotes from science you think, usually erroneously, support your religious agenda and dismiss whatever does not support your religious agenda. This is doubly dishonest in that you consistently demonstrate your contempt for science, except where you think it supports your presuppositions. As well, you rarely answer questions and do not attempt to support your position other than with a god-did-it response. You demand verified evidence from your opponents but exempt yourself on the fatuous basis that you're "not bound by the laws of science". Can you see the dishonesty of your approach?

See Tass, in this last accusation by you I again asked exactly where I quote mined concerning this study about determinism and behavior - and you offer no specifics but go off on a rant - talk about dishonest Bro...

[seer]

Yes, because everything in consciousness is caused by a physical thing going on in the brain.

Yes, what? That conscious thought can influence the process? How? You have been denying that right along.

Actually the particles are still entangled when one is measured and the other instantly changes. How is that possible? Non-locality. There is a universal wave function. It is all described in quantum theory and there is nothing incoherent about it. The appearance of incoherency is based on false assumptions about reality that we held, like locality. Nothing about this makes the soul any more plausible, LFW is still incoherent because it violates the law of non-contradiction, and souls are rule by by quantum mechanics. You have no point here.

Nonsense, they are not any longer entangled and the act on each other at a distant. And NO ONE knows how or why. Read the link, this new experiment makes it clear. And free will would be no more a contradiction than particles instantly effecting each other without a physical connection.

Ha! You base your view here entirely on personal anecdotes. That's a classical bad move. The statistics show low religiosity correlated with low crime and high standards of living. So no, being a Christian or being a theist does not make society better. It may make certain individuals behave better. But no one denies that.

Again, this is stupid, what are the other variables? Sure a lily white country like Norway, though less religious, may have less crime than a multi cultural multi racial country that is more religious, but that tells you nothing about religion. And if it makes an individual better does that not then help make society better? The fact is, this is about individuals and can't be quantified by stats.

Because libertarian free will itself is incoherent. You already know this.

You keep asserting this. Try showing this in a syllogism, because I don't see it.

[Tassman]

See Tass, in this last accusation by you I again asked exactly where I quote mined concerning this study about determinism and behavior - and you offer no specifics but go off on a rant - talk about dishonest Bro...

[seer]

OK, meaning that you don't have any evidence that I quote mined or misrepresented anything about the study I linked here. And BTW Tass, this particular discussion is not religious based - I know plenty of theists who are determinists. And you are correct, though science can be useful, I am not "bound" by it.

[Tassman]

OK, meaning that you don't have any evidence that I quote mined or misrepresented anything about the study I linked here. And BTW Tass, this particular discussion is not religious based - I know plenty of theists who are determinists. And you are correct, though science can be useful, I am not "bound" by it.

[seer]

Yes Tass I have religious bias as you have a non-religious bias. We all have presuppositions Tass or we could not make sense of the world. And aren't you the one who keeps telling me that science is always in flux? Perhaps I should still believe in the Steady State universe that I was taught in school. And again, God is not an hypothesis, He is a person.