TRAGIC news for Doctors Without Borders

[Cow Poke]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/10...n-afghanistan/

U.S. officials have launched an investigation after 12 local staff members of Doctors Without Borders and at least seven patients, three of them children, were killed after an explosion near their hospital in the northern Afghan city of Kunduz that may have been caused by a nearby airstrike.

In a statement, the international charity said the "sustained bombing" took place Saturday at 2:10 a.m local time. Afghan forces backed by U.S. airstrikes have been fighting to dislodge Taliban insurgents who overran Kunduz on Monday.

At least 37 other people were seriously injured--19 staff members and 18 patients and caretakers, the organization said. Dozens were missing, raising concerns the death toll could rise.

A senior defense official told Fox News on Saturday that the Taliban have been in control of the area around the hospital since Monday, guarding the building and drawing U.S. special operations forces into a firefight in the area. U.S. forces called in the airstrike because they were under fire and needed cover, the official said.

[lilpixieofterror]

Quite a sad tale, but the question everybody should ask is, "Why was the Taliban hanging around the hospital?"

[Cow Poke]

My first thoughts went to the poor military folks who released the ordnance, only to find out after the fact what they had done. I remember several stores from WWII where allied pilots committed suicide after discovering they had bombed a hospital or orphanage. Imagine living with that.

[lilpixieofterror]

My first thoughts went to the poor military folks who released the ordnance, only to find out after the fact what they had done. I remember several stores from WWII where allied pilots committed suicide after discovering they had bombed a hospital or orphanage. Imagine living with that.

Oh yeah. I'm thinking the Taliban wanted that to happen.

[Catholicity]

Not sure why we'd be doing an Investigation if we were trying to catch the enemy and it was a nearby explosion. Can someone enlighten me? This is war not a garden party.

[Psychic Missile]

Not sure why we'd be doing an Investigation if we were trying to catch the enemy and it was a nearby explosion. Can someone enlighten me? This is war not a garden party.

First, there should be an investigation every time there are civilian casualties.
Second, hospital staff dispute the presence of the enemy.
Third, if the enemy is a near a civilian hospital, indiscriminate bombing is an immoral tactic.
Fourth, attacking a civilian hospital is a war crime.
Fifth, the hospital asked the military to stop the bombing because of civilian casualties, but it continued for 30 minutes.

For all we know there was no wrongdoing on the US's part, but for these reasons, an investigation is well warranted.

[Teallaura]

Even war doesn't justify indiscriminate fire. When civilians are killed it is proper to investigate. An investigation, contrary to popular belief, does not imply wrongdoing.

[Cow Poke]

First, there should be an investigation every time there are civilian casualties.
Second, hospital staff dispute the presence of the enemy.
Third, if the enemy is a near a civilian hospital, indiscriminate bombing is an immoral tactic.
Fourth, attacking a civilian hospital is a war crime.
Fifth, the hospital asked the military to stop the bombing because of civilian casualties, but it continued for 30 minutes.

For all we know there was no wrongdoing on the US's part, but for these reasons, an investigation is well warranted.

Reference the bolded part (my bolding), that's accurate IF the civilian hospital was operating as a civilian hospital. There have been numerous accounts in Gaza of Hamas storing weapons and munitions in civilian hospitals and schools. It's a gutless and cowardly tactic, and really complicates prosecution of war. In this case, it seems, indeed, it was a civilian hospital acting as such, but there would need to be proof that our forces KNEW it was a civilian hospital and purposely targeted it.

[Catholicity]

Okay. I have some concerns about investigations regarding civilian casualties EVERY time during war. I doubt the US was doing indiscriminate bombing. I think perhaps US intelligance knows something we don't and never will which is why Drs without borders will and would dispute enemy presence. The hard and terrible and unjuswt part about war is that people who never did anything wrong will be a casualty. And I tend to think thats the part that leads to PTSD.
Also thats why I was asking questions about the investigation, it seems like and while this may sound cold hearted its not. If it was an accidental fire from a nearby airraid on the ISIS/Taliban (which yes they wanted would want and still want) then again...what would an investigation prove except the explosion set off a chain reaction which we knew in the first place?

I've other concerns. It just has more to do with too much being released too soon I guess.

[Teallaura]

I agree they are releasing too much - but that's the nature of an information society.

Don't over read the term 'investigation'. In this case, it'll be more involved - a hospital was hit and it should be more involved. But in the vast majority of cases, it's a rather brief verification of facts. If that turns up something that should not be there, then it may be expanded. Most probably take a few days and of that, less than a few hours of working time.

[Psychic Missile]

Reference the bolded part (my bolding), that's accurate IF the civilian hospital was operating as a civilian hospital. There have been numerous accounts in Gaza of Hamas storing weapons and munitions in civilian hospitals and schools. It's a gutless and cowardly tactic, and really complicates prosecution of war. In this case, it seems, indeed, it was a civilian hospital acting as such, but there would need to be proof that our forces KNEW it was a civilian hospital and purposely targeted it.

Agreed, hence the need for investigation.

[Catholicity]

I agree they are releasing too much - but that's the nature of an information society.

Don't over read the term 'investigation'. In this case, it'll be more involved - a hospital was hit and it should be more involved. But in the vast majority of cases, it's a rather brief verification of facts. If that turns up something that should not be there, then it may be expanded. Most probably take a few days and of that, less than a few hours of working time.

OKay and maybe I am misreading the term. I try so very hard to be cautious.

[Teallaura]

OKay and maybe I am misreading the term. I try so very hard to be cautious.

No, nothing wrong with asking. Most folks assume the term always means a formal, involved investigation and that only the shooting every third act is 'unreal' on TV, even when they don't mean to. I did myself until I became a DIS. Every paper that passed my desk required assessment and 90% required investigation - but less that 15% involved more than a phone call or two.

In this case, the investigatory process is part of military accountability. Granted, you can take anything too far -either direction. There has to be accountability and it cannot hamstring our forces. It's a balance that given the US military's track record, works decently well.

[Cow Poke]

I have a hard time believing, in this current political atmosphere, that an investigation will result in the truth. Call me a cynic, but there has been so much finger pointing and blaming going on because the Middle East is in such a mess. Afghan forces supposedly took back some of the area temporarily, but it's now back under Taliban control. Depends on who you talk to. Doctors Without Borders has one version, the Pentagon another version, the Afghan military is investigating, the NATO Military is investigating....

Supposedly, the Taliban was fighting our people from that hospital area, but Doctors Without Borders say there was no such fighting.... somebody's going to blame bad intel...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/05/wo...ital.html?_r=0

[Starlight]

Doctors Without Borders airstrike: US alters story for fourth time in four days

Doctors Without Borders seems to be pushing quite hard on their narrative along the lines of "they knew it was a hospital, they knew exactly what they were bombing, they just dislike our hospitals because we have a policy of treating all injured people, regardless of whether they're 'friend' or 'foe'. But there were no 'foe's around at the time of these attacks."

Unfortunately the US doesn't have a very good history when it comes to bombings of doctors, bombing first-responders as standard policy, itself judged a war crime by the UN special investigator. (The military strategy behind this being that first-responders might be able to save the life of someone that the first bombing had been targeting, and terrorize doctors into just leaving anyone hit by a drone strike to die on the scene.) They also tend to follow a strategy of bombing the funerals of people killed in drone strikes, under the assumption that if the people killed in the first drone strike might have been terrorists then some of the people attending the funerals might also have been terrorists.

One interesting analogy I heard for all this was to consider the case of a bank robbery, where the robber holds a hostage at gunpoint in front of him as he leaves the bank. Would the police ever shoot through the hostage to make sure they got the robber? (On the grounds that "We can't let him get away! Better to take an innocent life as well than leave open the possibility of him actually going free!") We'd be prosecuting those police for murder the very next week if they did that. And at least those police were sure that the bad guy was as bad guy, whereas by all accounts the intelligence that drone strikes is based on is extremely poor at best, and the military has almost zero idea as to whether they are hitting guilty or innocent people - though according to independent statistics about 97% of the people they kill are innocent. Here's one drone operator's account of the problems faced due to the inaccuracy of the system, and which explains the massive rate of turnover, PTSD, and suicide among drone operators.