Hebrews 6? Anyone?

[Mickey]

With all these concerns sorted out, a good summary of the Arminian position on perseverance is this: (1) One must have faith, and remain in faith, to be saved;

Those who have believed in their hearts will always continue to believe:

"The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever" (2Jn.1,2).

(2) God has given us sufficient blessings, that one may not fall away except by an obstinate, intentional choice of the will,

Once the sinner realizes that Christ died for his sins and that he will not have to face the wrath that he deserves then at that time he will always believe that truth.If one can fall away from that truth then that can only mean that he never believed it in his heart.

(3) that it is possible to fall away from faith and thus salvation,

All who have known the truth will have that truth dwelling in him and it will be with him forever.

(4) if one falls away, they cannot be returned to salvation

The Lord is longsuffering and wants all men to be saved.That being true then He would have to go against His own wishes to declare there are circumstances that exist that stops some from being saved.

and (5) some will fall away from faith and salvation.

Some can fall away from various revelations of the Scriptures but that does not mean that they have fallen away from saving faith.

[bloodrose]

Thanks Sheepdog for your detailed response regarding vs. 4-6, you have jumped the gun a bit, but I don't mind. A really big question I have is, what contextual relevance does 4-6 have with 1-3? Why mention the inability to restore to repentance after urging the Church to stop dwelling on foundational teachings? I have some theories, but I want to hear what others think first.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Hebrews 6 (ESV)
1Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2and of instruction about washings, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do if God permits.

One little note here in this elementary, or foundational, listing of the doctrine of Christ is the qualifier of works... It is the term "dead"... Being addressed to the Hebrews, this means the works of the Law, and not all works, but only the dead ones... The English makes it sound like all works are dead, but the prohibition is against those works which are indeed dead, and not against other works which are not... eg the works of love in 10...

4For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they then fall away, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

The "restoration to repentance" means repentance unto baptism.

Enlightened means having been baptized...

Tasted the heavenly gift means receiving Communion...

Shared in the Holy Spirit means being given the seal of the Holy Spirit by tyhe laying on of hands and the annointing after baptism...

The powers of the Age to come are the gifts of the Holy Spirit...

What he is telling them is that even though they have fallen somewhat, they are not yet lost... Even though they cannot be again renewed by baptism. There is but ONE baptism into Christ... And AFTER that one, a person cannot fall away and just start over from scratch...

7For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.

The land, here, is the heart, and the cultivation of the heart... In the divinely given repentance that waters the soil with copious tears... And if, after these blessings, one still produces thorns from the heart, one is in a lot of trouble... And headed for the fire... Unless one turns radically around...

9Though we speak in this way, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things--things that belong to salvation. 10For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love that you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. 11And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness to have the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

And look at what it is that is keeping them from harm here! Their work, their love, their serving the saints, and the desire of the mature [the Apostles] that they pull through and possess earnestness and hope until the end...

So yes, we can fall away, as even these have done, yet their works speak for them, and give them a basis for restoration in their having slipped...

Arsenios

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Thanks Sheepdog for your detailed response regarding vs. 4-6, you have jumped the gun a bit, but I don't mind. A really big question I have is, what contextual relevance does 4-6 have with 1-3? Why mention the inability to restore to repentance after urging the Church to stop dwelling on foundational teachings? I have some theories, but I want to hear what others think first.

He is not telling them to stop dwelling on the basics, but simply that they HAVE the basics, and have fallen away a little, and need correction, and the correction that they need is not in the basic and elementary teachings, but in the teachings unto maturity... They do not have the option of starting all over for another clean slate as babes - eg repentance unto baptism... They ARE baptized, and need to repent from their understandings that are leading them astray... And what this will mean is that they will need to enter into the exercize of faith in a bigger and more full way, which seems to have been lost track of...

Arsenios

[Mickey]

1st puzzle: Why (in verse 1) are the Hebrews told to "leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity?" That sounds like everything but what the church is doing today...

I have written an long article on this.I will begin with the following:

"Because of this,having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ,let us be borne on to full growth,not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works,and of faith upon God,of (the) baptisms,of doctrine,and of laying on of hands,and of resurrection of dead ones and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2,"Literal Translation","Interlinear Greek-English New Testament",Green).

The Hebrews was written to Hebrew Christians who were having a difficult time leaving Judaism and moving on to the higher truths of Christianity.It was written to show the Jewish believers that O.T.Judaism had come to an end and it contains a series of contrasts between the good things of Judaism and the "better" things of Christianity (6:9;7:7;7:19;7:22;8:6;9:23;10:34;11:16,35,40;12:24).


The divine religion of Judaism pointed to Christ and was fulfilled in Him.However,Judaism continued to exert a strong hold upon the Hebrew Christians so it was natural that they should attempt to cling to it.That explains why the author of Hebrews appeals to these Jewish Christians to leave behind the things that were taught at the "discourse of the beginning of Christ" which were centered in Judaism.

Not Laying Down Again a Foundation of the Baptisms
"Because of this,having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ,let us be borne on to full growth,not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works,and of faith upon God,of (the) baptisms,of doctrine,and of laying on of hands,and of resurrection of dead ones and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2).


Water Baptism:


The rite of "water baptism" went hand and hand with the preaching of the "gospel of the kingdom". On the day of Pentecost Peter used the facts of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ to prove to the Jews that He is their promised Messiah.He summed up his argument by saying:


"Therefore,let all the house of Israel know assuredly,that God hath made that same Jesus,Whom ye have crucified,both Lord and Christ"(Acts2:36).


Those "who gladly received his word"(Acts2:41) were "born of God" the moment that they believed that gospel:


"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God…For whoever is born of God overcometh the world,and this is the victory that overcometh the world,even our faith.Who is he that overcometh the world,but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God"(1Jn.5:1,4,5)


Before a drop of water even touched the believers they were already "children of God"(Jn.1:12;Ro.8:16,17) and "fellow citizens of the household of God"(Eph.2:19).This refers to a believer's "standing" before God.


It was those who were "born of God" and already saved who asked,"Men and breathren,what shall we do?"


Peter's answer was in reference to how a believer might serve the Lord: "Repent,and be baptized,every one of you,in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).


.In our "walk" we cannot serve Him (bear fruit) unless we "abide in Him"(Jn.15:4) by remaining in "fellowship" with Him.Sin defiles a believer and causes him to lose "fellowship" with the Lord: "If we say that we have fellowship with Him,and walk in darkness,we lie,and do not the truth"(1Jn.1:6)


Once defiled we are to "confess" our sin and the blood of the Lord Jesus "cleanseth us from all unrighteousness"(1Jn.1:7): "If we confess our sins,He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness"(1Jn.1:9).


The "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" was also in regard to "confessing" one's sins (Mt.3:6).This rite was merely "symbolic" and represented the washing away of the believer's sin so that he could "serve Him in "holiness and righteousness".This "baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is not in reference to being "born of God" and that is because being "born of God" does not involve the "will of the flesh" as does submitting to the rite of water baptism:


"But as many as received Him,to them gave He power to become the children of God,even to them who believe on His name, Who were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man,but of God"(Jn.1:13).


He shall baptize you with holy spirit:


John the Baptist said,"He who cometh after me is mightier than I,whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.He shall baptize you with holy spirit,and with fire"(Mt.311)."


Here the Greek words "pneuma hagion",which are translated "holy spirit",are not preceded by the definite article (the).With the article the reference is to the third Person of the Godhead,the Holy Spirit.But without the definite article it "is never used of the Giver (the Holy Spirit),but only and always of His gift"("The Companion Bible",Appendix 101,Section 14).

So when Peter speaks of receiving the "gift of the Holy Spirit" he is speaking about a "gift" that is bestowed by the Holy Spirit: "Then Peter said unto them, Repent,and be baptized,every one of you,in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).


The "gift" of which is spoken of here can be determined by comparing Luke 24:49 with Acts1:4,5,8:

"And,behold,I send the promise of My Father upon you,but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem,until ye be endued with power from on high"(Lk.24:49).

"…commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,but wait for the promise of the Father,which,ye have heard from Me.For John truly baptized with water,but ye shall be baptized with holy spirit not many days from now…receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"(Acts1:4,5,8).

The promise of the Father is called "pneuma hagion" (holy spirit) in the latter passage and "power from on high" in the former.This "power from on high" included whatever "gifts" the Holy Spirit bestowed on the believers on the day of Pentecost.In the following verse we can see that the "gift" is distinguished from the Giver: "they were all filled with holy spirit,and began to speak with other tongues,as the Spirit gave them utterance"(Acts2:4).

The sign gifts were given for power in order to "confirm" the "gospel of the kingdom":: "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).


The Jews looked for "signs" in order to have a confirmation in their minds that those preaching the "gospel of the kingdom" were sent from God.That explains the following words:


"For the Jews require a sign,and the Greeks seek after wisdom"(1Cor.1:22).


The Jews had a good reason to expect to see "signs",and that is because the OT Scriptures revealed that the promised Messiah would indeed perform signs and miracles.Believers were also given many of the "signs of the apostles" to prove that they were also sent from God: "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience,in signs,and wonders,and mighty deeds"(2Cor.12:12).


However,with the bringing in of a new dispensation miracles and the sign gifts lost their prominence.As long as the Jews were accorded a priority in the offer of blessing (Acts13:46),the sign gifts remained in force.This continued throughout the period of time covered by the book of Acts.It was not until the "gospel of the kimgdom" had been preached in every synagogue from Jerusalem round to Rome,and rejected by all those synagogues,that the "sign gifts" and miracles began to fade away.When the special testimony to the Jews ceased,the purpose for which those miracles and "sign gifts" were given was accomplished.


The miracles of Acts28:8,9 are chronologically the last on record,and Paul's later epistles are completely silent in respect to miricles and "sign gifts".In Paul's early ministry miracles were abundant: "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them"(Acts19:11,12).


However,by the time when his later epistles were written Paul was powerless to heal his fellow Christians,writing,"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20).He also gives Timothy the following advice: "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities"(1Tim.5:23).


This demonstrates a significant change from the day of Pentecost: "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"(Mk.16:17,18).


The gift of "tongues" provides another example of "sign gifts" that are no longer for today.The "unknown tongues" were actual languages.Therefore,Paul told those in the early church that "let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret"(1Cor.14:14).In Pentecostal churches today the so-called "tongues" are not actual languages,but instead more closely resemble the "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).


This "muttering" is not of God,and that is why believers are given warnings about "spirits" that are not of God: "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that,in the latter times,some shall depart from the faith,giving heed to seducing spirits…"(1Tim.4:1).


The days of the "rushing mighty wind" and "tongues of fire"(Acts2:2,3) are past.Today the Christian endures "as seeing Him Who is invisible"(Heb.11:27),as witnessed by the words of the Lord and Savior:


"Thomas,because thou hast seen Me,thou hast believed.Blessed are they who have not seen,and yet who have believed"(Jn.20:29).


"For we walk by faith,not by sight"(2Cor.5:7).


One Baptism:


"There is one Body,and one Spirit,even as you are called in one hope of your calling.One Lord,one faith,one baptism,one God and Father of all…"(Eph.4:4-6).


The "one baptism" is the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when believers are baptized in the Body of Christ:


"For by one Spirit were we all baptized into one Body…the Body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).


Since there is but "one baptism" for today we can understand why the author of Hebrews told the Jewish believers to cease from laying the foundations of the baptisms which were in force during the discourse of the beginning of Christ.


Not Laying Down Again a Foundation of Laying on of Hands"Because of this,having left the discourse of the beginning of Christ,let us be borne on to full growth,not laying down again a foundation of repentance from dead works,and of faith upon God,of (the) baptisms,of doctrine,and of laying on of hands,and of resurrection of dead ones and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2).


The practice of laying on of hands was for the impartation of the sign gifts and for healing:


"Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive holy spirit…Then laid they their hands on them, and they received holy spirit"(Acts8:15,17).


"And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with holy spirit"(Acts9:17).


"And it came to pass, that the father of Publius lay sick of a fever and of a bloody flux: to whom Paul entered in, and prayed, and laid his hands on him, and healed him"(Acts28:8).


As mentioned earlier,during the Acts period the sign gifts were abundant.As we see,Paul laid his hands on Publius and healed him.But Paul's epistles written after the Acts period came to a close reveal that he did not heal Trophimus:


"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20).

In Christ,
Mickey

[Arminian]

I'm interested, please comment away, especially on the warning passages in vs 4-6. Can the apostasy mentioned in vs. 4-6 can be remedied?

It's my opinion that a form of apostasy can be remedied, but not this particular type. Some people have argued that the active voice used in the passage indicates a present condition that can be changed if the behavior stops. I agree that "it is impossible" is a reference to human agency (most see it that way, rather than referring to divine agency); however, each warning appears to have a purview to the same final condition, even though the behavior that leads to that condition is variously described.

I think the list below is one I got from Scot Mcknight, but I can't be sure. I’m sure it’s not mine. Anyhow, the main point is to note the increasing intensity of the warnings.

2:1-4 Lest we drift away and not escape God's punishment
3:1-4:13 Lest we harden our hearts and fail to enter God's rest
5:11-6:12 Lest we fall away and can no longer repent
10:19-39 Lest we sin willfully and be consumed by God's fire
12:15-29 Lest we refuse to hear and face punishment by an angry God

The "trump card" verse (the one I can't get around) for me is 12:17, where it warns that Esau reached a point where he sought the blessing but could not "find a place of repentance” (could not find a "change of mind"). The context seems to indicate that Esau could not change God's mind, even though he wanted to. The point here is that Esau had reached the "point of no return," and it can happen to us, too.

The reason this is complicated for me is that there are indications at a return to God is possible for some who have fallen away. The most commonly used verse in this regard is the last verse in James where it says that a brother who has wandered from the truth will have his (lit.) "soul saved from death" if he is brought back. This verse is almost universally interpreted by both Arminians and Calvinists (see Moo, for example) as referring to apostasy of formerly genuine believer. I would conclude, then, that the high-handed apostasy described in Hebrews can’t remedied, but the form that is described in James is due to ignorance and is therefore reversible.

[bloodrose]

They do not have the option of starting all over for another clean slate as babes - eg repentance unto baptism... They ARE baptized, and need to repent from their understandings that are leading them astray...

This is why I'm starting to think (more so than before) that this passage is a bit of a thorn for the Anabaptists, who appear to miss the point of baptism when a person can be baptized like 5 times...

[Arminian]

thorn for the Anabaptists..

[bloodrose]

Whoa, sorry

If I'm wrong, and baptizing someone tonnes of times is biblical, by all means prove me wrong, it just seems that the warning given in Hebrews 6 was given for exactly that sort of behavior. I was baptized twice myself (once as an infant), and while I don't think of my second one as meaningless, it certainly was unnecessary, as far as I can tell now. The mistake I made was thinking that baptism was my commitment to God, rather than about God's commitment to his people.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

This is why I'm starting to think (more so than before) that this passage is a bit of a thorn for the Anabaptists, who appear to miss the point of baptism when a person can be baptized like 5 times...

The historic and Apostolic Church has always taught that there is but one baptism - It is even in the Nicean Creed [I confess one baptism for the remission of sins]... But this understanding gets you into the Orthodox understanding of salvation, which is the keeping pure of one's conscience in the ongoing purification of one's heart in a repentant life... And it is this that Hebrews is addressing - You cannot go BACK to the beginnings and start all over... You are ALREADY upon the path, you have ALREADY been purified, you cannot again crucify the Lord unto yourself, but if you have fallen away, you have to either buck up and re-consecrate yourself in repentance from your error, or end up being fit only for burning...

You can't just go and re-crucify Christ to yourself because you have not taken Him seriously the first time...

I was baptized again into the Church, forsaking my first [infant] baptism into the Presbyterian Church... Which I did not regard as a valid baptism...

Arsenios

[Tercel]

I hate to criticise all this enthusiastic and creative exegesis (well, okay, actually I don't), but I suggest that the passage doesn't actually have much of a deep theological meaning at all. I suggest the author is simply using basic logic and an exaggeration.

He notes that if someone has tried something out and decided they don't like it that it is virtually impossible to convince them to try it again. He notes that the group of people he would like to convince have already "tasted of the heavenly gift" etc (by which he means they followed his own theology) and then decided to follow the Law instead. So the writer simply says "well, it's pretty much impossible to try and convince these people, so let's talk about other stuff". It's not impossible to convince them for any deep theological reason, but rather just because they've already tried it and decided it's bad so it's not going to be easy to convince them it's good.

I should note that these people who have "fallen away" are probably Christians that have started following the Law (eg like the Galatians). They had been initially converted to Pauline Christianity, but now have decided to start following the Jewish Law. These people are (metaphorically) "crucifying Christ again" because Jesus got killed for his attempts to stop people following the Jewish Law. So anyone who starts following the Jewish Law is like the Pharisees who killed Jesus in order to keep following the Law. So it's not some deeply spiritual re-crucifying of Christ being talked about, but just having the same attitude toward the Law as the attitude held by those who killed Jesus for his attitude to the Law.

All in all, the passage has nothing much to say about the theology of "falling away" as we would conceive of it today. It does imply that a person can stop living by faith and start living by the Law... but I think we all knew that already from Galatians.

[Arminian]

Whoa, sorry

If I'm wrong, and baptizing someone tonnes of times is biblical, by all means prove me wrong, it just seems that the warning given in Hebrews 6 was given for exactly that sort of behavior. I was baptized twice myself (once as an infant), and while I don't think of my second one as meaningless, it certainly was unnecessary, as far as I can tell now. The mistake I made was thinking that baptism was my commitment to God, rather than about God's commitment to his people.

Not a problem. I was just kidding.

[GoBahnsen]

The historic and Apostolic Church has always taught that there is but one baptism - It is even in the Nicean Creed [I confess one baptism for the remission of sins]... But this understanding gets you into the Orthodox understanding of salvation, which is the keeping pure of one's conscience in the ongoing purification of one's heart in a repentant life... And it is this that Hebrews is addressing - You cannot go BACK to the beginnings and start all over... You are ALREADY upon the path, you have ALREADY been purified, you cannot again crucify the Lord unto yourself, but if you have fallen away, you have to either buck up and re-consecrate yourself in repentance from your error, or end up being fit only for burning...

Hi George. You seem to be saying that "you can and you can't..." Which is it?

You can't just go and re-crucify Christ to yourself because you have not taken Him seriously the first time...

Yet you just said "But if you have fallen away..." Please clarify.

I was baptized again into the Church, forsaking my first [infant] baptism into the Presbyterian Church... Which I did not regard as a valid baptism...

Arsenios

Was the Presbyterian Church apostate? Many are. If not, why not accept that baptism? Unless you're a "believer baptism" proponent.

[maudman]

He is not telling them to stop dwelling on the basics, but simply that they HAVE the basics, and have fallen away a little, and need correction, and the correction that they need is not in the basic and elementary teachings, but in the teachings unto maturity... They do not have the option of starting all over for another clean slate as babes - eg repentance unto baptism... They ARE baptized, and need to repent from their understandings that are leading them astray... And what this will mean is that they will need to enter into the exercize of faith in a bigger and more full way, which seems to have been lost track of...

Arsenios

Hello George:

Your statements are correct and true. It was not an abandonment of the tradition. What many overlook is that it was the most intelligent in the church that was leaving. Those who understood the scriptures, “probably better than most”. We know this because Paul in other writings is concerned, it is the circumcision that has gone out from among the church.

Gentiles didn’t have the heritage to understand the more mature message that was lurking underneath or beyond the basics of the gospel and how a Jew would have seen some things. Being a people seeking to throw the yoke of bondage of the Roman. Many of the covenant were leaving as a way to rid themselves of another yoke that the apostles were advocating. Jews who weren’t interested in enduring another set of rituals in the name of their God because they had grown up to believe this messiah would let loose the bondage of Rome and not Sin.

Paul is apparently addressing an issue that was arising in a certain areas that had a lot of Jewish or Israelite converts, probably those more in tune to the social aspects of the Gospel and certain Jews who had been living among Roman gentiles who were more Patrician than plebian. It is for sure that the Apostle’s saw the entire Christian population as the Church and they labored all over the empire to keep its unity.

Paul was simply saying that you might want to make visible the more social aspects of the Gospel and not the basics because they just needed to return to the Church because they were dwelling outside the Temple.

Anyway I think your post is a pretty good one.

[Rdr. Arsenios]

Hi George. You seem to be saying that "you can and you can't..." Which is it?

You cannot start over and be re-baptized...

You can move forward in repentance from sin...

Yet you just said "But if you have fallen away..." Please clarify.

This is why there are shepherds for the flock, to whom we owe obedience... For on our fallen own, we will stray from what is right in the Faith, and the keeping pure of one's conscience cleansed in baptism is, as Paul tells us, how the mature hold the Mystery of the Faith, remember?

Now the warning includes, in its description of those who have fallen away and are in extreme danger, the qualifier "...And have tasted the powers of the Age to come..." And this, I am pretty sure, the ones he is writing to have not yet done... They are immature in the faith, having been baptized, having been sealed in the Holy Spirit, having received Communion, and having started out in the praxis of the Faith, reaching foreward to maturity... And it is precisely here that things can go wrong, as people struggle, and are a part of a group, and they look at each other, and start comparing themselves with each other, and start judging each other, and then themselves, and on and on... And in this, they take their eyes off Christ... And they scatter the great concentration of the nous unto God that the discipleship of the Church enters one into... And having fallen away in this manner, the temptation can be seen as one that might say to oneself: "Oh well, no big deal - So what if I have fallen away and contaminated myself in sins... I will just start out in the repentance that led to my baptism and be baptized again, and will thereby be re-cleansed... As a matter of fact, I can go out and sin all I want, and then just go back and get baptized again, and I'll be cool!" And to this, Paul says no - Once baptized, you can only go forward...

Was the Presbyterian Church apostate? Many are. If not, why not accept that baptism? Unless you're a "believer baptism" proponent.

I wanted to be entered into the Body of Christ... I did not believe in God, and they passed me through my confirmation class... I became an athiest for the next 20 years or so... And even when God came into my darkened night, I KNEW [wrongly] that He was no stinking CHRISTIAN God!! I mean, Greg - When God "told" me that I was a Christian, that He was the Christian God, I turned and said "That's crap..."

So I needed the full meal deal when I entered the Apostolic Church that He led me to... Triple immersion, full exorcisms, the whole thing... I do not regard my first baptism as being anything at all... Whatever it was, or may have been, I leave to God...

Arsenios